Posted: 2/18/2009 9:06:40 PM EDT
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+a zillion on the ignore button.
Hey Honda guy......I work on the pieces of shit that you so proudly named yourself after.........I see zero difference between the reliability of domestic versus Japanese cars these days.............btw...bought any transmissions lately.....Honda seems to be buying lots of free ones for their Accords and Odyssey vans. don't get me started on German cars..............superior engineering my ass. |
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Quoted: Yup, caused me to think hard about a Ford for my next truck.Quoted: Is Ford even taking bailout money? Not that I've heard, though they do stand to realize significant gains if UAW benefits fall during GM & Chryslers' tank-a-thon. Well played by them so far, IMO. |
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Yup, caused me to think hard about a Ford for my next truck.
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Is Ford even taking bailout money? Not that I've heard, though they do stand to realize significant gains if UAW benefits fall during GM & Chryslers' tank-a-thon. Well played by them so far, IMO. 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yup, caused me to think hard about a Ford for my next truck.Quoted: Is Ford even taking bailout money? Not that I've heard, though they do stand to realize significant gains if UAW benefits fall during GM & Chryslers' tank-a-thon. Well played by them so far, IMO. Hey, Keeping your business in check and not taking a .gov handout (Therefore putting the .gov in charge of your business) says a lot to me. Not saying they won't eventually turn around and take one. But for now, color me impressed. |
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What I would like to see happen....
If you take bailout money to save your auto company, you must stop producing gas powered vehicles by 75%. Instead you must use the money to fund alternative fuel vehicles. Which in turn, will do our country as a whole, a big fucking favor. |
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Yup, caused me to think hard about a Ford for my next truck.
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Is Ford even taking bailout money? Not that I've heard, though they do stand to realize significant gains if UAW benefits fall during GM & Chryslers' tank-a-thon. Well played by them so far, IMO.
Hey, Keeping your business in check and not taking a .gov handout (Therefore putting the .gov in charge of your business) says a lot to me. Not saying they won't eventually turn around and take one. But for now, color me impressed. Understood. I was shocked you said the word Ford though. 
As of today, they are running on credit fumes. It would not surprise me if they eventually ask for money. Ford's deteriorating balance sheet, swung to a $300 million loss. Inventory is up by $2 billion, and the plummeting value of used cars cost its leasing business $2.1 billion. Ford lost $2.46 per share solely in the last quarter—more than its entire current market capitalization. This year's forecast anticipates the worst sales in decades, and Ford's 40 percent revenue decline in January suggests that even its current-year prediction may be overly optimistic. Most serious of all is the $21.2 billion in cash the company chewed through last year. If the company keeps spending at that rate—though it insists it won't—Ford will face a liquidity problem before the end of the year. So how is it that Ford, a company that was near bankruptcy during better times a few years ago, now has Detroit's deepest pockets? The answer is that CEO Alan Mulally had very good timing. A little more than two years ago, Ford secured a $23 billion line of credit to fund its now-scrambled turnaround, then called "The Way Forward." Arranged by Goldman Sachs, J.P. Morgan Securities, and Citigroup, the massive deal securitized and then hocked almost all of the company's North American assets, including the Ford logo. Even at the peak of the credit bubble, Ford's double-down strategy was viewed as reckless. All three major rating agencies downgraded Ford's debt after the deal was announced In hindsight, however, Ford appears to have gotten while the getting was good. The deal gave the company access to a cash pile that has set it apart from its rivals: At the beginning of February, Ford withdrew more than $10 billion to bankroll its capital-destroying manufacturing operations. Under the terms of the deal, its lenders couldn't say no. The main reason that Ford doesn't need a government bailout now is that it already received the private-sector equivalent. Internally, the company has made progress in standardizing its products globally, shuttering a number of manufacturing plants, and moving toward more fuel efficient vehicles. But some of Ford's key accomplishments exist on paper at best. For instance, the company boasts that it "remains on track for both its overall and its North American Automotive pre-tax results to be at or above break even in 2011, excluding special items." In other words, if everything goes to plan, Ford will stop losing money by 2012—not counting its potentially massive restructuring costs. . |
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Wow, this started knocking Ford, now it is headed toward cheers for Ford. Hondaman probably forgot to mention that Japan has "bailed" Honda out already.
I have been considering a Duramax,1st choice or Power Stroke, 2nd choice. The thing that holds me back is the Dems have said no drilling. This means, to me, that fuel will be going up again. I know it all goes up but diesel fuel is about 65 cents more than gas. |
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My father & I have typically been pretty lavish about buying newer rigs, seldom going past 80K miles or so before trading up. (for the past decade anyhow) However, both of us are approaching the point where we would normally start thinking about buying new again (74K on mine, a few less on his), and neither of us have any plans to do so at all. Money is tighter, and the industry is too uncertain. Better to take the cheaper miles this time around. It's really hard to guess where it'll all end up IMO. I have trouble thinking that GM, Chrysler or Ford will disappear, but I sure don't think they will survive in their current forms either. The days of loose credit are over, and it's unlikely that the auto market will return to its' highest sales rates in my lifetime. The sub-prime BS happened/resulted in autos too. Wont again, unless the Stimulus-Porkulus plan goes Full Retard. Hard to guess which direction I'll go when the time to re-buy does come again, if GM or others are gone. |
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What I would like to see happen.... If you take bailout money to save your auto company, you must stop producing gas powered vehicles by 75%. Instead you must use the money to fund alternative fuel vehicles. Which in turn, will do our country as a whole, a big fucking favor. I noticed you didn't buy a fucking a Prius last year. 
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What I would like to see happen.... If you take bailout money to save your auto company, you must stop producing gas powered vehicles by 75%. Instead you must use the money to fund alternative fuel vehicles. Which in turn, will do our country as a whole, a big fucking favor. Tree hugger |
| Alternitive fuel vehicles are a joke. Ethanol costs more than gas or diesel to produce is less efficent and competes with food crops (oh and its hell on the rubber components in your fuel system). This is followed closely by those little battery powered shit boxes I guess they are great if your a metrosexual but I have a jet sled and camp trailer to pull. Thats the problem with the big 3 now is those dipshits in our government telling them what to build instead of letting the people purchasing the cars/trucks dictate what the market wants. Just like the government in Kommifornia that wants to dictate tougher standards and our dipshit government says ya what the hell go ahead. The auto makers need to tell Kommifornia to FUCK OFF we wont sell our cars in your state. You want to go somewhere WALK. |
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What I would like to see happen.... If you take bailout money to save your auto company, you must stop producing gas powered vehicles by 75%. Instead you must use the money to fund alternative fuel vehicles. Which in turn, will do our country as a whole, a big fucking favor. I noticed you didn't buy a fucking a Prius last year.
Wasn't really an option for me, in the vehicle I wanted. I'm all for decreasing our dependency on foreign oil. That was the point of my statement. |
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Quoted: What I would like to see happen.... If you take bailout money to save your auto company, you must stop producing gas powered vehicles by 75%. Instead you must use the money to fund alternative fuel vehicles. Which in turn, will do our country as a whole, a big fucking favor. Tree hugger I'm speaking in terms of corporations that cannot manage their money. Instead they are relying on you and I to foot the bill. It's certainly not like they don't already charge an arm and a leg for their product. Perhaps if their executives and managers didn't make huge wages, they wouldn't need our help. I'm not saying that I want to see everyone driving earth conscious vehicles. I do want to see a reduction in our dependency on foreign oil. If that's possible by bringing the drilling back home, so be it. If not, we owe it to ourselves to look at other alternatives. |
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Alternitive fuel vehicles are a joke. Ethanol costs more than gas or diesel to produce is less efficent and competes with food crops (oh and its hell on the rubber components in your fuel system). This is followed closely by those little battery powered shit boxes I guess they are great if your a metrosexual but I have a jet sled and camp trailer to pull. Thats the problem with the big 3 now is those dipshits in our government telling them what to build instead of letting the people purchasing the cars/trucks dictate what the market wants. Just like the government in Kommifornia that wants to dictate tougher standards and our dipshit government says ya what the hell go ahead. The auto makers need to tell Kommifornia to FUCK OFF we wont sell our cars in your state. You want to go somewhere WALK. Continuing down the same path, with the same results is a joke. If we don't do something we are going to continue repeating the cycle. |
| I think that even if the big 3 go down, one or two of their truck lines will break off and survive as independent companies....like GMC. There isn't much of a market right now, but I don't see toyota putting out the kind of heavy trucks (light commercial, etc) that we need. |
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Anybody read the blurb about the the mixed fuels in/from Brazil? They became so popular that Brazil need to plant more sugar cane, gues how they got the land to do this? Yep, they cut down the rain forest...
The destruction and damage was greater then all the fuel saved from us planting and harvesting corn last year. We are all going to die anyway. |
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Wow, this started knocking Ford, now it is headed toward cheers for Ford. Hondaman probably forgot to mention that Japan has "bailed" Honda out already. I have been considering a Duramax,1st choice or Power Stroke, 2nd choice. The thing that holds me back is the Dems have said no drilling. This means, to me, that fuel will be going up again. I know it all goes up but diesel fuel is about 65 cents more than gas. Word is...Toyota is dumping 20 k employees..in the US |
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Quoted: Quoted: Wow, this started knocking Ford, now it is headed toward cheers for Ford. Hondaman probably forgot to mention that Japan has "bailed" Honda out already. I have been considering a Duramax,1st choice or Power Stroke, 2nd choice. The thing that holds me back is the Dems have said no drilling. This means, to me, that fuel will be going up again. I know it all goes up but diesel fuel is about 65 cents more than gas. Word is...Toyota is dumping 20 k employees..in the US Did you hear it locally? Links? I've been quasi-looking for signs of weakness from Toyota and/or Nisssan in the financial news. But little has appeared in the mainstream news, ....though Nissan did decide to not participate in one of the auto shows recently, due to financial reasons. Not mining for bad news mind you, but sales are down incredibly for all, yet only our big three occupate the headlines. Seems a little suspicious from my seat. (I know Toyota is known for being cash-strong, but know little about Nissan) Just curious. |
Industry rumors and publications . although I seem to remember seeing it somewhere in the MSM
my mistake..Nissan is dumping 20k, most in Japan..Toyota is looking to buy out workers in the US http://www.courierpress.com/news/2009/feb/12/11web-Toyota/ |
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I thought I had read that Nissan was laying off 20,000 about 1-2 weeks ago. I hadn't heard that Toyota was laying off 20,000, but it wouldn't surprise me. All of the auto makers are fucked. There are holding pins in Texas and Oklahoma with close to 3 million new cars waiting to be shipped.
Not to many responsible people are buying. You hear about lots of foreclosures on houses but the reason you don't here about to many repos,cars, is because even though the bank or credit union make car loans and hold the paper the dealers have to take them back. This started a long time ago when the the dealers would try and roll everything and didn't care about how many repos because the lender would repo them. The lenders got together and told the car dealers that they had to take the repos back or no loans. so the dealers are a little more careful. If only they did this with houses we wouldn't be in this shape. There would be a few banks that went banko and then things would go on. Now that the money is going to loosen up it scares me that we are starting all over again along the same path we have been on. |
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NADA and Kelly Blue books used to update monthly, now they update weekly. The bottom is falling out of the used car market and that has a huge affect on the average consumer being able to purchase new vehicles.
680+ beacon w/ 10% to 15% down and total financing of 100% of invoice is the new reality. People are gonna be forced to keep cars longer. That is gonna continue to hurt new car sales. Unless the .gov comes out and says that the banks have to lower credit criteria to service all walks of life, this shit is gonna continue to tighten up. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wow, this started knocking Ford, now it is headed toward cheers for Ford. Hondaman probably forgot to mention that Japan has "bailed" Honda out already. I have been considering a Duramax,1st choice or Power Stroke, 2nd choice. The thing that holds me back is the Dems have said no drilling. This means, to me, that fuel will be going up again. I know it all goes up but diesel fuel is about 65 cents more than gas. Word is...Toyota is dumping 20 k employees..in the US Did you hear it locally? Links? I've been quasi-looking for signs of weakness from Toyota and/or Nisssan in the financial news. But little has appeared in the mainstream news, ....though Nissan did decide to not participate in one of the auto shows recently, due to financial reasons. Not mining for bad news mind you, but sales are down incredibly for all, yet only our big three occupate the headlines. Seems a little suspicious from my seat. (I know Toyota is known for being cash-strong, but know little about Nissan) Just curious. The thing about Toyota is that they make a lot of money in other markets (they sell more cars in asia/africa then they do in the US) so this market for them is not "that" important... Toyota is such a big brand that it can keep making cars in the US for the other markets... A lot of countries in Asia (all in the ASEAN treaty) give leeway and free trade to good coming from other countries in Asia... So what Toyota does is make them in the US send them to Japan where they have little tax for stuff coming from the US then they forward the stuff to other countries in Asia thus they can keep making money... Fuel costs in Malaysia/thailand/cambodia/indonesia/phillipines are really really low so they can keep selling cars there... Yea sure they are thinking of buying out people but if you add up the number of people they employ it's a small fraction of the work force they employ. |
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This alternative fuel is all a good idea but in order for it to take off the government needs to get out of the way of the capitalist that can fund it. Then tell the environmental lobby to STFU. Big oil inst going to cut their own throat doing it. Look at oil shale reserves we have over 1.5 trillion barrels in Colorado alone, that is more than five times the oil reserves of Saudi Arabia right here at home http://www.dailyreckoning.com/oil-shale-reserves/ It will be costly to get it started and the liberals and environmental groups will fight it all the way because it will mean building new refineries. Hydrogen fuel cells are most likely a pipe dream as our entire infrastructure is set up to run on fossil fuels can you imagine what it would take to set up fueling stations, then the amount of time to phase out all of the gas and diesel powered vehicles in the country. Bio Diesel is another alternative fuel but again they are using soy beans some research is being directed at switchgrass but its still a ways off and cost prohibitive.
This wind farm and solar energy that we are pouring money into right now is just a supplemental source as it only makes power when its windy or sunny and the battery arrays to store that energy is again cost prohibitive and they have to be replaced (just like a prius or other hybrid) this creates its own problems as all of the spent batteries are hazardous waste and cannot be completely recycled. So when the wind farms or solar arrays are generating we cut back on the hydro/oil/coal/gas/nuclear power generation but when they aren't we have to ramp them back up. As for Toyota laying off 20,000 employee's in the USA I read it last week in the market news on Vanguards website while watching my 401K drop like a rock. So Japan's auto makers are not fairing any better than our own. Japan has already propped up Honda, Germany has done the same for BMW, Mercedes. Now maybe our dependence on foreign oil is a strategic plan and when they are sufficiently depleted then we will have our own oil right here, then again maybe my tinfoil is just a little to tight. |
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Quoted: NADA and Kelly Blue books used to update monthly, now they update weekly. The bottom is falling out of the used car market and that has a huge affect on the average consumer being able to purchase new vehicles. That's interesting. I had guessed that would be the trend, but didn't know it had already begun. |
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Continuing down the same path, with the same results is a joke. If we don't do something we are going to continue repeating the cycle. So what have you personally done to break the cycle? I pay my mortgage on time, I pay my bills on time and I don't buy shit I cannot afford. Again, the point is we are talking about bailout money. Money these greedy bastards should have stocked away in piles. They shouldn't need our money to continue existing. If they do, it means they've seriously mismanaged theirs. |
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Continuing down the same path, with the same results is a joke. If we don't do something we are going to continue repeating the cycle. So what have you personally done to break the cycle? I pay my mortgage on time, I pay my bills on time and I don't buy shit I cannot afford. Again, the point is we are talking about bailout money. Money these greedy bastards should have stocked away in piles. They shouldn't need our money to continue existing. If they do, it means they've seriously mismanaged theirs. There are a couple of different, yet intertwined, sentiments being expressed here. I was asking in regards to reducing our dependence on foreign oil. What are we as individuals of doing? We all seem to think that it's a good idea, but when it comes down to it, it's not convenient for us. We expect others to make those changes while we go about our merry way as we always have. Like 1GR said, if we really wanted meaningful change in the form hybrids or electric vehicles, the Big 3 would be making them. Instead, with cheap gas we found a way around CAFE standards to have large, roomy, comfortable and wasteful vehicles in the form of pickups and SUVs and the Big 3 shortsightedly rode that wave. If goverment fuel economy standards are not working to create consumer demand for fuel efficient vehicles, why would a mandate to produce ones powered by alternative energies? The only way I see the cycle being broken is for oil to become and stay so prohibitively expensive that the alternatives become viable and attractive. That means either running out of oil or substantial taxes placed on it. |
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Continuing down the same path, with the same results is a joke. If we don't do something we are going to continue repeating the cycle. So what have you personally done to break the cycle? I pay my mortgage on time, I pay my bills on time and I don't buy shit I cannot afford. Again, the point is we are talking about bailout money. Money these greedy bastards should have stocked away in piles. They shouldn't need our money to continue existing. If they do, it means they've seriously mismanaged theirs. There are a couple of different, yet intertwined, sentiments being expressed here. I was asking in regards to reducing our dependence on foreign oil. What are we as individuals of doing? We all seem to think that it's a good idea, but when it comes down to it, it's not convenient for us. We expect others to make those changes while we go about our merry way as we always have. Like 1GR said, if we really wanted meaningful change in the form hybrids or electric vehicles, the Big 3 would be making them. Instead, with cheap gas we found a way around CAFE standards to have large, roomy, comfortable and wasteful vehicles in the form of pickups and SUVs and the Big 3 shortsightedly rode that wave. If goverment fuel economy standards are not working to create consumer demand for fuel efficient vehicles, why would a mandate to produce ones powered by alternative energies? The only way I see the cycle being broken is for oil to become and stay so prohibitively expensive that the alternatives become viable and attractive. That means either running out of oil or substantial taxes placed on it. I hear ya and I must say I agree. Everyone has a fit over technological advances. OMG the sky is going to fall if I can't have a gas powered rig. Nobody has any issue with building smarter bombs or tanks, which cost billions to manufacter. Honestly, if the truck I wanted was available in a Hybrid or Electric, I would have seriosuly considered it. Not for the environmental factors, not for the hippies, but for my out of pocket. Of course gas is what the Big 3 make vehicles for. Why shouldn't they? The government has almost made it impossible up till recently, to run a vehicle on anything else. Why? Because they can tax the shit out of it..... If the Big 3 want to make money, they have to make something that is useful. Why make an alternative fuel car, if their are no alternative fuels? My simple point was this, now is a great time to rethink how we power our vehicles. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Continuing down the same path, with the same results is a joke. If we don't do something we are going to continue repeating the cycle. So what have you personally done to break the cycle? I pay my mortgage on time, I pay my bills on time and I don't buy shit I cannot afford. Again, the point is we are talking about bailout money. Money these greedy bastards should have stocked away in piles. They shouldn't need our money to continue existing. If they do, it means they've seriously mismanaged theirs. There are a couple of different, yet intertwined, sentiments being expressed here. I was asking in regards to reducing our dependence on foreign oil. What are we as individuals of doing? We all seem to think that it's a good idea, but when it comes down to it, it's not convenient for us. We expect others to make those changes while we go about our merry way as we always have. Like 1GR said, if we really wanted meaningful change in the form hybrids or electric vehicles, the Big 3 would be making them. Instead, with cheap gas we found a way around CAFE standards to have large, roomy, comfortable and wasteful vehicles in the form of pickups and SUVs and the Big 3 shortsightedly rode that wave. If goverment fuel economy standards are not working to create consumer demand for fuel efficient vehicles, why would a mandate to produce ones powered by alternative energies? The only way I see the cycle being broken is for oil to become and stay so prohibitively expensive that the alternatives become viable and attractive. That means either running out of oil or substantial taxes placed on it. I hear ya and I must say I agree. Everyone has a fit over technological advances. OMG the sky is going to fall if I can't have a gas powered rig. Nobody has any issue with building smarter bombs or tanks, which cost billions to manufacter. Honestly, if the truck I wanted was available in a Hybrid or Electric, I would have seriosuly considered it. Not for the environmental factors, not for the hippies, but for my out of pocket. Of course gas is what the Big 3 make vehicles for. Why shouldn't they? The government has almost made it impossible up till recently, to run a vehicle on anything else. Why? Because they can tax the shit out of it..... If the Big 3 want to make money, they have to make something that is useful. Why make an alternative fuel car, if their are no alternative fuels? My simple point was this, now is a great time to rethink how we power our vehicles. dismantled nuke fuel! woooo I bet the car would run forever... would also make a pretty bad ass dirty bomb... but that's not the point |
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Quoted: Quoted: My simple point was this, now is a great time to rethink how we power our vehicles. Can't argue with that. But it's going to have to come from viable market based solutions, not mandates as a condition on money lent. What we need to do is start growing sugar cane... that way we A. Stop importing it from Brazil B. we can turn it into ethanol better then we can corn (proven by... Brazil) C. we will create a lot of jobs... it takes a lot of people to process sugarcane from it to ethanol and even more people to make actual sugar... (great grandfather was a sugar cane plantation owner) D. Unlike most other crops sugar cane can grow anywhere there is water (well can't be in the cold though) and it is hurricane proof... actually it thrives from hurricanes! (ok maybe not but it was always a viable crop in PR and FL) E. You can make the most awesome fucking beverage from it! RUM!!!!!!! Sugar cane = you can distill it, eat it, burn it, you can build cheap huts from it... all you can't do to it is fuck it, but someone from Oregon will prolly figure out how to do it ... |
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My simple point was this, now is a great time to rethink how we power our vehicles. Can't argue with that. But it's going to have to come from viable market based solutions, not mandates as a condition on money lent. Why not? They are our tax dollars. Why shouldn't we have a say so? |
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We buy brazil sugar cane because it's cheaper than the US made stuff. Mostly because of the difference in labor wages, and anywhere we can grow sugar, we can usually grow a more cost efficient crop, unlike Brazil.
So as much as I like rum, we'll hafta move onto the next suggestion. 
Plus, some of my vehicles have run like crap with ethanol fuels in them. 
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I'll buy an alternative fuel/energy vehicle when it's not the alternative anymore. I'm not here to change the world. I'm here to overcome it.  Everything else will work itself out. The markets will chase the dollars, the governments will over overtax them, and the consumers will argue about it all, for free. |
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My simple point was this, now is a great time to rethink how we power our vehicles. Can't argue with that. But it's going to have to come from viable market based solutions, not mandates as a condition on money lent. Why not? They are our tax dollars. Why shouldn't we have a say so? For the same reason the .gov doesn't tell you which school to attend with your college loans, only that you attend school, and don't score poorly. Likewise, the government doesn't tell you which house to buy when they finance your home loan. So why should the auto industry be different? |
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I'll buy an alternative fuel/energy vehicle when it's not the alternative anymore. I'm not here to change the world. I'm here to overcome it.
Everything else will work itself out. The markets will chase the dollars, the governments will over overtax them, and the consumers will argue about it all, for free. This is a wise man |
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My simple point was this, now is a great time to rethink how we power our vehicles. Can't argue with that. But it's going to have to come from viable market based solutions, not mandates as a condition on money lent. Why not? They are our tax dollars. Why shouldn't we have a say so? For the same reason the .gov doesn't tell you which school to attend with your college loans, only that you attend school, and don't score poorly. Likewise, the government doesn't tell you which house to buy when they finance your home loan. So why should the auto industry be different? I'm not referring to the .gov telling anyone anything. I'm talking about our tax dollars being used to bail people and corporations out of their own shit. As tax paying citizens, we should have the right to a voice in other alternatives or solutions. |
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I'll buy an alternative fuel/energy vehicle when it's not the alternative anymore. I'm not here to change the world. I'm here to overcome it.
Everything else will work itself out. The markets will chase the dollars, the governments will over overtax them, and the consumers will argue about it all, for free. There's only one way to overcome this world.
I have to disagree with you on this one though. That's exactly the type of thinking that has resulted in where we are today. As tax paying citizens we should demand more from our government. |