Warning

 

Close
Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Cancel Confirm
AR15.COM
3/14/2007 9:18:54 AM EDT
mmmmmm relaxation...

finally through with a hellish group project for english... group project = I do the work, no-one else participates.  = I told the professor what happened and I got a good grade and they failed.  At least there is still justice in some places.

So now I get to relax for a few days before finals next week.


Question: is it legal/ethical to give someone money to buy a handgun when you are under 21, they are over 21, with the sole purpose of their handing over possession to you when you turn 21?  (Did that make sense)

I have the money for a SA 1911 mil spec or gi and some custom parts, and want to know if I can give the money to somone for them to buy it and keep it for me until I can legally possess it?  They'll keep it and when we go shooting together I'll get to practice with it etc...


And since this is a random thread, here is a picture for your viewing pleasures...

3/14/2007 9:41:04 AM EDT
[#1]
You giving your money to someone to purchase a firearm with the intent being that firearm be turned over to you isn't legal.


Form 4473 question 9 (a)



Are you the actual buyer of the firearm indicated on his form?  If you answer "no" to this question the dealer cannot transfer the firearm to you. (See Important Notice
1.)



WARNING-The Federal firearms laws require that the individual filling out this form must be buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift. Any individual who is not buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift, but who completes this form, violates the law. Example: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out the form, he will violate the law. However, if Mr. Jones buys a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones may lawfully complete this form. A licensee who knowingly delivers a firearm to an individual who is not buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift violates the law by maintaining a false ATF  4473.


Persons under the age of 21 may have hanguns legally.


RCW 9.41.240
Possession of pistol by person from eighteen to twenty-one.

Unless an exception under RCW 9.41.042, 9.41.050, or 9.41.060 applies, a person at least eighteen years of age, but less than twenty-one years of age, may possess a pistol only:

    (1) In the person's place of abode;

    (2) At the person's fixed place of business; or

    (3) On real property under his or her control.




RCW 9.41.042
Children — Permissible firearm possession.


RCW 9.41.040(2)(a)(iii) shall not apply to any person under the age of eighteen years who is:

    (1) In attendance at a hunter's safety course or a firearms safety course;

    (2) Engaging in practice in the use of a firearm or target shooting at an established range authorized by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which such range is located or any other area where the discharge of a firearm is not prohibited;

    (3) Engaging in an organized competition involving the use of a firearm, or participating in or practicing for a performance by an organized group that uses firearms as a part of the performance;

    (4) Hunting or trapping under a valid license issued to the person under Title 77 RCW;

    (5) In an area where the discharge of a firearm is permitted, is not trespassing, and the person either: (a) Is at least fourteen years of age, has been issued a hunter safety certificate, and is using a lawful firearm other than a pistol; or (b) is under the supervision of a parent, guardian, or other adult approved for the purpose by the parent or guardian;

    (6) Traveling with any unloaded firearm in the person's possession to or from any activity described in subsection (1), (2), (3), (4), or (5) of this section;

    (7) On real property under the control of his or her parent, other relative, or legal guardian and who has the permission of the parent or legal guardian to possess a firearm;

    (8) At his or her residence and who, with the permission of his or her parent or legal guardian, possesses a firearm for the purpose of exercising the rights specified in RCW 9A.16.020(3); or

    (9) Is a member of the armed forces of the United States, national guard, or organized reserves, when on duty.




RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.


(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

    (3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

    (4) Nothing in this section permits the possession of firearms illegal to possess under state or federal law.




RCW 9.41.060
Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.


The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:

    (1) Marshals, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens or their deputies, or other law enforcement officers of this state or another state;

    (2) Members of the armed forces of the United States or of the national guard or organized reserves, when on duty;

    (3) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed pistol;

    (4) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of the person, if possessing, using, or carrying a pistol in the usual or ordinary course of the business;

    (5) Regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive pistols from the United States or from this state;

    (6) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of target shooting, when those members are at or are going to or from their places of target practice;

    (7) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of modern and antique firearm collecting, when those members are at or are going to or from their collector's gun shows and exhibits;

    (8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

    (9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

    (10) Law enforcement officers retired for service or physical disabilities, except for those law enforcement officers retired because of mental or stress-related disabilities. This subsection applies only to a retired officer who has: (a) Obtained documentation from a law enforcement agency within Washington state from which he or she retired that is signed by the agency's chief law enforcement officer and that states that the retired officer was retired for service or physical disability; and (b) not been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity of a crime making him or her ineligible for a concealed pistol license.


Also Federal law requires that a person be 21 years of age to purchase a handgun from a dealer.  Neither Federal or Washington state law requires that for person to person sales.


RCW 9.41.080
Delivery to ineligible persons.


No person may deliver a firearm to any person whom he or she has reasonable cause to believe is ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 to possess a firearm. Any person violating this section is guilty of a class C felony, punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.




RCW 9.41.040
Unlawful possession of firearms — Ownership, possession by certain persons — Penalties.


(1)(a) A person, whether an adult or juvenile, is guilty of the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm in the first degree, if the person owns, has in his or her possession, or has in his or her control any firearm after having previously been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity in this state or elsewhere of any serious offense as defined in this chapter.

    (b) Unlawful possession of a firearm in the first degree is a class B felony punishable according to chapter 9A.20 RCW.

    (2)(a) A person, whether an adult or juvenile, is guilty of the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm in the second degree, if the person does not qualify under subsection (1) of this section for the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm in the first degree and the person owns, has in his or her possession, or has in his or her control any firearm:

    (i) After having previously been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity in this state or elsewhere of any felony not specifically listed as prohibiting firearm possession under subsection (1) of this section, or any of the following crimes when committed by one family or household member against another, committed on or after July 1, 1993: Assault in the fourth degree, coercion, stalking, reckless endangerment, criminal trespass in the first degree, or violation of the provisions of a protection order or no-contact order restraining the person or excluding the person from a residence (RCW 26.50.060, 26.50.070, 26.50.130, or 10.99.040);

    (ii) After having previously been involuntarily committed for mental health treatment under RCW 71.05.320, *71.34.090, chapter 10.77 RCW, or equivalent statutes of another jurisdiction, unless his or her right to possess a firearm has been restored as provided in RCW 9.41.047;

    (iii) If the person is under eighteen years of age, except as provided in RCW 9.41.042; and/or

    (iv) If the person is free on bond or personal recognizance pending trial, appeal, or sentencing for a serious offense as defined in RCW 9.41.010.

    (b) Unlawful possession of a firearm in the second degree is a class C felony punishable according to chapter 9A.20 RCW.

    (3) Notwithstanding RCW 9.41.047 or any other provisions of law, as used in this chapter, a person has been "convicted", whether in an adult court or adjudicated in a juvenile court, at such time as a plea of guilty has been accepted, or a verdict of guilty has been filed, notwithstanding the pendency of any future proceedings including but not limited to sentencing or disposition, post-trial or post-factfinding motions, and appeals. Conviction includes a dismissal entered after a period of probation, suspension or deferral of sentence, and also includes equivalent dispositions by courts in jurisdictions other than Washington state. A person shall not be precluded from possession of a firearm if the conviction has been the subject of a pardon, annulment, certificate of rehabilitation, or other equivalent procedure based on a finding of the rehabilitation of the person convicted or the conviction or disposition has been the subject of a pardon, annulment, or other equivalent procedure based on a finding of innocence. Where no record of the court's disposition of the charges can be found, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that the person was not convicted of the charge.

    (4) Notwithstanding subsection (1) or (2) of this section, a person convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity of an offense prohibiting the possession of a firearm under this section other than murder, manslaughter, robbery, rape, indecent liberties, arson, assault, kidnapping, extortion, burglary, or violations with respect to controlled substances under RCW 69.50.401 and 69.50.410, who received a probationary sentence under RCW 9.95.200, and who received a dismissal of the charge under RCW 9.95.240, shall not be precluded from possession of a firearm as a result of the conviction or finding of not guilty by reason of insanity. Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, if a person is prohibited from possession of a firearm under subsection (1) or (2) of this section and has not previously been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity of a sex offense prohibiting firearm ownership under subsection (1) or (2) of this section and/or any felony defined under any law as a class A felony or with a maximum sentence of at least twenty years, or both, the individual may petition a court of record to have his or her right to possess a firearm restored:

    (a) Under RCW 9.41.047; and/or

    (b)(i) If the conviction or finding of not guilty by reason of insanity was for a felony offense, after five or more consecutive years in the community without being convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity or currently charged with any felony, gross misdemeanor, or misdemeanor crimes, if the individual has no prior felony convictions that prohibit the possession of a firearm counted as part of the offender score under RCW 9.94A.525; or

    (ii) If the conviction or finding of not guilty by reason of insanity was for a nonfelony offense, after three or more consecutive years in the community without being convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity or currently charged with any felony, gross misdemeanor, or misdemeanor crimes, if the individual has no prior felony convictions that prohibit the possession of a firearm counted as part of the offender score under RCW 9.94A.525 and the individual has completed all conditions of the sentence.

    (5) In addition to any other penalty provided for by law, if a person under the age of eighteen years is found by a court to have possessed a firearm in a vehicle in violation of subsection (1) or (2) of this section or to have committed an offense while armed with a firearm during which offense a motor vehicle served an integral function, the court shall notify the department of licensing within twenty-four hours and the person's privilege to drive shall be revoked under RCW 46.20.265.

    (6) Nothing in chapter 129, Laws of 1995 shall ever be construed or interpreted as preventing an offender from being charged and subsequently convicted for the separate felony crimes of theft of a firearm or possession of a stolen firearm, or both, in addition to being charged and subsequently convicted under this section for unlawful possession of a firearm in the first or second degree. Notwithstanding any other law, if the offender is convicted under this section for unlawful possession of a firearm in the first or second degree and for the felony crimes of theft of a firearm or possession of a stolen firearm, or both, then the offender shall serve consecutive sentences for each of the felony crimes of conviction listed in this subsection.

    (7) Each firearm unlawfully possessed under this section shall be a separate offense.
3/14/2007 9:53:25 AM EDT
[#2]
Simple answer is no, but that's some great info from Phil.



IIRC, a parent can buy you a gun though, so that may be a possibility.

Otherwise start checking out the for sale threads for local deals.

Steve
3/14/2007 10:04:21 AM EDT
[#3]
So.. it CAN be purchased as a gift or by a parent?  Or a private transfer that I particapate in is legal?


My problem is that my parents are dissaproving of firearms, so I can't store them at home... much less expect them to buy this for me.  

Thanks for your help, guys, I really appreciate it!

ETA, ok... so it cannot be purchased 'as a gift' with money that has been given to the buying party.
3/14/2007 10:29:10 AM EDT
[#4]
I figured that a parents dislike of firearms was going to be involved in this story.


ETA, ok... so it cannot be purchased 'as a gift' with money that has been given to the buying party.


That wouldn't be much of a gift now would it?


Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out the form, he will violate the law.
3/14/2007 11:06:15 AM EDT
[#5]
Would it be technically legal if his friend buys himself the gun, then he buys it from his friend for the same price?

Although I think I remember there being a question about "Are you buying this for the purpose of selling it" ...
3/14/2007 11:45:11 AM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:
Would it be technically legal if his friend buys himself the gun, then he buys it from his friend for the same price?

Although I think I remember there being a question about "Are you buying this for the purpose of selling it" ...


No, it wouldn't be technically legal. The two of them have predetermined the disposition of the firearm, that it's destined to be owned by someone who is prohibited (by being under the age of 21) from acquiring that handgun from a licensee.  It's a classic straw purchase.




2005 Federal Firearms
Regulations Reference Guide

15. STRAW PURCHASES
Questions have arisen concerning the
lawfulness of firearms purchases from
licensees by persons who use a "straw
purchaser" (another person) to acquire
the firearms. Specifically, the actual
buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute
the Form 4473 purporting to show
that the straw purchaser is the actual
purchaser of the firearm. In some instances,
a straw purchaser is used because
the actual purchaser is prohibited
from acquiring the firearm. That is to
say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is
within one of the other prohibited categories
of persons who may not lawfully
acquire firearms
or is a resident of a
State other than that in which the licensee's
business premises is located.
Because of his or her disability, the person
uses a straw purchaser who is not
prohibited from purchasing a firearm
from the licensee. In other instances
neither the straw purchaser nor the actual
purchaser is prohibited from acquiring
the firearm.
In both instances, the straw purchaser
violates Federal law by making
false statements on Form 4473 to the
licensee with respect to the identity of
the actual purchaser of the firearm, as
well as the actual purchaser's residence
address and date of birth. The actual
purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser
to acquire a firearm has unlawfully
aided and abetted or caused the
making of the false statements. The
licensee selling the firearm under these
circumstances also violates Federal law
if the licensee is aware of the false
statements on the form. It is immaterial
that the actual purchaser and the straw
purchaser are residents of the State in
which the licensee's business premises
is located, are not prohibited from receiving
or possessing firearms, and
could have lawfully purchased firearms
from the licensee.
An example of an illegal straw purchase
is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr.
Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills
out Form 4473, he violates the law by
falsely stating that he is the actual buyer
of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
the law because he has unlawfully aided
and abetted or caused the making of
false statements on the form.
Where a person purchases a firearm
with the intent of making a gift of the
firearm to another person, the person
making the purchase is indeed the true
purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
in these instances. In the above example,
if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm
with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could
lawfully have completed Form 4473.
The use of gift certificates would also
not fall within the category of straw purchases.
The person redeeming the gift
certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly
reflected as such in the dealer's records.



3/14/2007 11:53:13 AM EDT
[#7]
that pics on the way up to the pit where the bridge is, correct?
3/14/2007 2:54:12 PM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:
that pics on the way up to the pit where the bridge is, correct?


correct.  We went right after the snow earlier this year and it sure was pretty...  How often do you get up there?  
3/14/2007 3:01:20 PM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:

2005 Federal Firearms
Regulations Reference Guide

15. STRAW PURCHASES
blah blah blah blah
...The use of gift certificates would also
not fall within the category of straw purchases.
The person redeeming the gift
certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly
reflected as such in the dealer's records.


So, would you interpret this as I can legally/ethically go and buy a gift card for X amount, give it to a party who goes and buys x item and gives it as a gift to me?  Thats the way it seems to me...

If these are annoying questions I apologize...
3/14/2007 3:15:32 PM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:

2005 Federal Firearms
Regulations Reference Guide

15. STRAW PURCHASES
blah blah blah blah
...The use of gift certificates would also
not fall within the category of straw purchases.
The person redeeming the gift
certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly
reflected as such in the dealer's records.


So, would you interpret this as I can legally/ethically go and buy a gift card for X amount, give it to a party who goes and buys x item and gives it as a gift to me?  Thats the way it seems to me...

If these are annoying questions I apologize...


No I would not say that.

What they are saying that if you give your friend a gift certificate that he uses to buy a gun for himself it's legal.  It's not legal for you to buy a gift certificate to give to your friend in order for him to go and buy a gun in order to give that gun to you.

Supplying someone with the funds to have them go and buy a firearm in order to give that firearm to you is a textbook strawman purchase.  
3/14/2007 3:34:38 PM EDT
[#11]
Well I guess I'll just keep my eyes open for a private sale then

Thanks again for your time and info
3/14/2007 4:07:00 PM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
Would it be technically legal if his friend buys himself the gun, then he buys it from his friend for the same price?

Although I think I remember there being a question about "Are you buying this for the purpose of selling it" ...


No, it wouldn't be technically legal. The two of them have predetermined the disposition of the firearm, that it's destined to be owned by someone who is prohibited (by being under the age of 21) from acquiring that handgun from a licensee.  It's a classic straw purchase.
The original situation, where 19 year old Joe gives 22 year old Sam money to buy a gun for him, is a classic straw purchase. But if Sam buys a gun, then Joe buys it from Sam, there are two purchases going on, so I wasn't sure if that still fell into the category, since it's a private sale at that point.

Example:
Classic Straw Purchase:
Joe gives Sam $500. Sam goes to Mary's Pistols and buys an XD for $500, then goes home and gives it to Joe.

My Inquiry:
Sam goes to Mary's and buys an XD for $500, and goes home. When he gets home, he sells it to Joe for $500.

Perfectly Legal Situation:
Sam goes to Mary's and buys an XD for $500, and goes home. Joe offers Sam his cost ($500) to buy the XD. Sam sells it to Joe.


I think the part which makes my inquiry a possible straw purchase is that Sam fully intended to sell the gun to Joe when he got home, which is ever so slightly different from the classic situation.


Thanks for the interpretation, though.
3/14/2007 4:59:26 PM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:
correct.  We went right after the snow earlier this year and it sure was pretty...  How often do you get up there?  


I think the last time was xmas of 05