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Posted: 12/8/2005 3:27:34 PM EDT
One of the applicant responses calls for a Y/N answer about an expungement. The question addresses notification from a lawyer concerning an expungement. This question is strange because if a record is expunged I was told that it meant there was never an arrest, etc. I wonder how the process would change if an answer of yes were applied to the question. Philly keeps trying to screw you out of a CCW.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 4:15:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 10:03:14 AM EDT
This is from a retired LEO: The tape with the original arrest will always exist. Old computer tape is still around. I do agree that it sounds like a trap because a lawyer once told me that if you have ever been arrested you can answer with a NO if the record was expunged. Just Philly govn't in action.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 8:51:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Voodoo17:
This is from a retired LEO: The tape with the original arrest will always exist. Old computer tape is still around. I do agree that it sounds like a trap because a lawyer once told me that if you have ever been arrested you can answer with a NO if the record was expunged. Just Philly govn't in action.





Philly is trying VERY hard to screw the average guy out of his RIGHT to CCW.

Before you even APPLY get someone to run your record for you. A parking ticket that blew off your windshield 20 yeaqrs ago (and automatically went to warrant)is MORE than enough for Philly to use as a trap.

Behind on child support? Watch it!

Unless you are 100% sterile, squeaky clean, don't even apply.

Philly will call you and tell you to pick up your permit and you will find yourself wearing stainless steel matching bracelets.

The city is truly evil.

Mayor Street should be drawn and quartered just because of who he is.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 11:57:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2005 11:57:19 PM EDT by TravisM1]
If you answer yes, they will dig thru the files that they were supposed to have "Expunged" and see what you did. Unless they just take it for granted and deny the CCW because they figure you were a criminal once.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 9:44:40 AM EDT
The lawyer I reffered to had it right. Once an arrest is "expunged" you can answer no to the question: Were you ever arrested?" I would believe the lawyer before I would trust the Philly firearms dept and the D.A.'s office. Pennsy isn't bad but this city sucks big time.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 11:22:18 AM EDT
This is a "shall issue" state.

Answer "no" to the question. If a red flag shows up on the basis of the (limited) background check that'll be run for CCW, rest assured that the same red flag would come up anywhere else in the state.

If it comes up, related to an expunged record, you'll have to deal with it in Philly.......but you'd have to deal with it anywher else, most likely, as well.

Good luck to you, and, yes, Philly gubmint sucks.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:01:46 PM EDT
I have close, personal knowledge of the system. If you were ever arrested and had it subsequently expunged, just tell them. It will not count against you. They do in fact have a way of determining whether or not you were ever arrested and will deny you the license for lying on the application if you say you weren't. They will ask you the details and you will get the license if you tell the truth. If the arrest happened so long ago that you can't remember all the details, that is not a problem.
Bottom line: don't make a big deal out of this--they cannot deny you if you meet the objective criteria stated in the law. Contrary to what has been posted, you don't have to be squeaky clean.
One bit of advice: check off only "self-defense" as the application reason. If you check off (for example) "employment," they will go to your employer for his permision and you will have created needless trouble for yourself.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:53:58 AM EDT
According to a lawyer the expungement means that all records of the arrest are destroyed. That is the purpose of the expungement and the fee for it. City, state and federal records of the arrest are to be destroyed by the expungement. What is the purpose of paying for an expungement if you were to admit to an expungement. Not being picky but the question does not belong on any form. Be that an employment, concealed carry or whatever. It is Philly's way of busting balls and no more!
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 7:13:47 AM EDT
You are making something out of nothing. Go argue with your lawyer, in fact, go apply and
fill out the application in a way that you think is legal. I'm sure that he will be more than happy to take your money (I hope you have an extra 50 grand laying around) and fight it in court for the next five years. You might even win -- who knows?
To any other honest Phila. resident who wants a carry permit: don't be sidetracked by this junk! Get your permit and save your life. $19 for five years-- it's worth it.
Just remember, your neighbors in New Jersey are tearing their hair out when they hear someone complaining about our horrible system!
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:30:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 2:33:19 PM EDT by Voodoo17]
I have no arguement with you but you seem to miss the point of the expungement. If you were up for a "security" clearance for work the destruction of the arrest records, etc. is significant. If you pay to have the criminal records expunged and the local police department dones not destroy the records it is a violation of the procedure etc. The D.A. in Philly seems more interested in playing politics. I would offer that you are a Philly LEO or work in the D.A.'s office? I am being honest if I respond in the negative.(last sentance added to for edit)
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 7:55:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 8:20:35 PM EDT by MochaJava]
FYI, in Pa. the Sheriff issues gun permits and investigates applicants; in Phila. it is the Chief of Police. D.A.'s are not involved.
I thought we were talking gun permits and expungment -- I have no special knowledge of any "security clearance" expungement issues -- this is a gun forum.
If someone feels that a court order for expungement has been violated they are free to pursue contempt proceedings and fines against the party violating the order.
If something specific has happened to you that you could not get a permit (as opposed to some general paranoia) why don't you state it ?


Originally Posted By Voodoo17:
One of the applicant responses calls for a Y/N answer about an expungement. The question addresses notification from a lawyer concerning an expungement. This question is strange because if a record is expunged I was told that it meant there was never an arrest, etc.
I wonder how the process would change if an answer of yes were applied to the question.



As I said above, you get the permit if you answer honestly. The process doesn't change at all. Issuance is mandatory if you meet the objective criteria stated in the law; denial is just as mandatory if you don't. It couldn't be simpler.
Here are the criteria. If you can't meet them too damn bad!


(1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license. A license shall not be issued to any of the following:

(i) An individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.
(ii) An individual who has been convicted of an offense under the act of April 14, 1972 (P.L.233, No.64), known as The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(iii) An individual convicted of a crime enumerated in section 6105.
(iv) An individual who, within the past ten years, has been adjudicated delinquent for a crime enumerated in section 6105 or for an offense under The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(v) An individual who is not of sound mind or who has ever been committed to a mental institution.
(vi) An individual who is addicted to or is an unlawful user of marijuana or a stimulant, depressant or narcotic drug.
(vii) An individual who is a habitual drunkard.
(viii) An individual who is charged with or has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year except as provided for in section 6123 (relating to waiver of disability or pardons).
(ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state, as published annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(19) (relating to definitions).
(x) An alien who is illegally in the United States.
(xi) An individual who has been discharged from the armed forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions.
(xii) An individual who is a fugitive from justice. This subparagraph does not apply to an individual whose fugitive status is based upon nonmoving or moving summary offense under Title 75 (relating to vehicles.) [so much for this b.s.Piccolo quote: "A parking ticket that blew off your windshield 20 yeaqrs ago (and automatically went to warrant)is MORE than enough for Philly to use as a trap." M.J.]
(xiii) An individual who is otherwise prohibited from possessing, using, manufacturing, controlling, purchasing, selling or transferring a firearm as provided by section 6105.




Philly keeps trying to screw you out of a CCW.


Nobody is screwing anybody out of a gun permit. Come up with some names and facts or be seen as another internet b.s. er. It seems like you are trying to discourage people from applying by making it seem more difficult that it really is.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:21:31 PM EDT
Let me propose this "catch 22": If you answer "No" to have you ever been arrested then answer "Yes" to have you ever had a record expunged, is this not a contadiction. Why would a person need an expungement if they were never arrested. You assume that the process is governed by honest and sincere civil servants while many people have an inherent distrust of the Philly police department and city hall. The fact that a clean record is necessary for many reasons, ccw etc. you chose to believe that I should believe you about the ccw process while my experience living in Philly makes me believe otherwise. Philly at one time was like New York city and Los Angeles. If you were politically connected you got a carry permit. Things changed when a state representative was mugged at gun point in Harrisburg. Philly lost its "class one" status and residents were allowed, like the rest of the state, the opportinity to get a ccw. Philly and Pittsgurgh fell in line with the rest of PA. Reading the Phila. Inquirer it is hard to believe that the interests of the residents of Philly will receive what the rest of the state receives from local government. My original post was intended to let others know of the contradictory question concerning an expungement.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:06:17 PM EDT
FWIW, I don't know why you would want to spread disinformation re carry permits. You haven't even got your history straight. Issuance became mandatory for the entire state except for Philadelphia (but including Pittsburgh) in 1988. In 1995 it became mandatory for Philadelphia.
I don't know what your problem is, but about 50,000 ordinary Philadelphians have obtained carry permits and our murder rate dropped dramatically. Even the current mini rise is nowhere near the bad old days before mandatory permit issuance.
Sounds like you got turned down for a permit for lying on the application. Don't worry, you can reapply in a year -- only next time tell the truth.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:17:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:31:47 PM EDT
When is it going to get harder? Please be specific.
For anyone else reading this, Pa. has state preemption which means that only the state can make gun laws. This has been upheld by our Supreme Court.
Therefore, we who live in Pennsylvania get to enjoy more of the blessings of liberty than the inhabitants of our neighbors to the east and north.
BTW, last time I looked, the gun permit applications were online.

www.ppdonline.org/hq_gunpermit.php
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:21:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:39:40 PM EDT
Class threes are a federal issue, not state law. That Phila. politicians will not sign off on them has nothing to do with state or local law -- it is just their evil practice. BTW, someone must sign off on something 'cause there are MG owners in Phila. Hint: judges can sign for them too.
That newspaper article kind of proves my point: the scummy city pols whine but the state pols don't give them the time of day. Of course, the newspapers and TV will always give them the time of day and more.
If this were nine years ago I would be agreeing with you.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:05:03 PM EDT
[

.
Sounds like you got turned down for a permit for lying on the application. Don't worry, you can reapply in a year -- only next time tell the truth.

Once Philly came in line with the rest of the state I received my ccw. My paperwork is in now for renewal so time will tell. You make accusations yet as an insider you feel you should pass judgement on others. Once again, it appears to be a catch 22. Read Joseph Heller to understand catch 22. About the info on a class one city. I got my info from a state rep who is now a sitting judge right after he voted Philly into the modern age.

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