Posted: 5/19/2014 10:37:05 PM EDT
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I've never heard of this one happening before, but it happened to another ARFcommer.
A double feed, with the dust cover closed. Maybe a round jumped out of the mag due to worn feed lips? Maybe it was already a double feed and he manually closed the dustcover without realizing it? Either way, how would you go about clearing this without something to pry the dustcover open? I was able to simulate this, round in chamber and one over the bolt, and it pretty takes the gun down. Trying to clear it just jammed the top round into the channel in the upper. You have to break it open and remove the bolt to clear it. Tough one, because you can't even see what's going on. Anyone else ever see this happen? |
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How far forward is the bolt? Get something like a dental pick up the magwell to push the cover open? It can be cleared, by breaking open the gun. But it's a pickle. Tap, rack, assess just results in things getting worse. You can't even see what the malfunction is, because the dust cover is closed. If you were in a fight, your gun might as well be a stick. |
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Did he lock the bolt back and then close the dust cover before inserting a magazine? As odd as that sounds, that's the only way I can think that this happened. I will own up to this one....  
Me and a guy I work with at Randall's were out shooting rabbits. I had my AR pistol. We rounded a juniper and a rabbit took off. I made a snap shot and took off after the bunny. Inadvertently I closed the dust cover. Fast forward a half hour and we have another bunny in our sights and I go to shoot it and nothing. Dust cover was closed everything looked ok. I racked the charging handle a few times and hit the forward assist a few times not understanding what was going on with the closed dust cover. I used my pocket knife to open the dust cover and I have an empty round and a live round trying to go into the chamber at the same time. I used my knife to pry the cases free of the chamber and cleared the gun. I wish I would have taken a picture. To me it looked like the first round didn't get kicked out and it tried to put the empty back in the gun at the same time as the new round.
TLDR; Shot. Closed Dust Cover. Went to shoot again and found it jammed up good. |
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Wot?
With a round in the chamber, the dust cover closed and fired, the bolt travels rearward with more force than manually cycling it by yourself...which means it isn't the dust cover causing that issue. 90 percent of the weapon jamming is due by magazines, always the Achilles heel of any magazine fed gun. I'm going with bolt bounce. |
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Wot? With a round in the chamber, the dust cover closed and fired, the bolt travels rearward with more force than manually cycling it by yourself...which means it isn't the dust cover causing that issue. 90 percent of the weapon jamming is due by magazines, always the Achilles heel of any magazine fed gun. I'm going with bolt bounce. LOL. We're not really asking about how it happened, but has anyone seen it before. It sounds like we know how it happened, failure to eject, new round fed. Two in the same hole just never works out. 
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LOL. We're not really asking about how it happened, but has anyone seen it before. It sounds like we know how it happened, failure to eject, new round fed. Two in the same hole just never works out. Quoted:
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Wot? With a round in the chamber, the dust cover closed and fired, the bolt travels rearward with more force than manually cycling it by yourself...which means it isn't the dust cover causing that issue. 90 percent of the weapon jamming is due by magazines, always the Achilles heel of any magazine fed gun. I'm going with bolt bounce. LOL. We're not really asking about how it happened, but has anyone seen it before. It sounds like we know how it happened, failure to eject, new round fed. Two in the same hole just never works out. Yea it double fed before i closed the dust cover is my thinking. In the future i would strip the mag then use my fingers through the magwell to pop open the dist cover and clear the double feed the same way. |
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Trying to figure out how you could rack rack rack and say the dust cover is still closed. Unpossible unless you've got a dicked up dust cover without the protrusion.
I'm assuming what you meant is that you couldn't rack the carrier rearward? Or that the carrier never went into battery before you closed the dust cover? In which case you should have been able to feel the difference. Very strange. Trying to picture where the carrier would have to be in order to actually get the dust cover closed out of battery with a double feed. Carrier must have barely gone forward. I would have thought that would have been obvious but if you were taking off after a rabbit I guess I could see that. Hmmm.....fun malf to work. |
I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I have been having a similar issue with my first build. Today was the 1st day I took it out with enough battery life on my phone to snap a picture of the malfunction. I cannot get through a full 30rd mag without this occurring several times throughout the 30rds. Sometimes it will try to feed a round with a casing still in the bore, other times it tries to feed with a partially ejected casing (like the picture below). I do not know, I may have to go out with somebody who is knowledgeable about troubleshooting these kinds of problems in person to fully understand how this rifle behaves.
Matt |
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I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I have been having a similar issue with my first build. Today was the 1st day I took it out with enough battery life on my phone to snap a picture of the malfunction. I cannot get through a full 30rd mag without this occurring several times throughout the 30rds. Sometimes it will try to feed a round with the casing still in the bore, other times it tries to feed with a partially ejected casing (like the picture below). I do not know, I may have to go out with somebody who is knowledgeable about troubleshooting these kinds of problems in person to fully understand how this rifle behaves. http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k145/mkruger_2006/0520141523_zps6a49eee0.jpg Matt it's probably gas system related. Whereabouts do you live? I might have some time Saturday morning if you're in the nw valley. |
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Quoted: it's probably gas system related. Whereabouts do you live? I might have some time Saturday morning if you're in the nw valley. Quoted: Quoted: I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I have been having a similar issue with my first build. Today was the 1st day I took it out with enough battery life on my phone to snap a picture of the malfunction. I cannot get through a full 30rd mag without this occurring several times throughout the 30rds. Sometimes it will try to feed a round with the casing still in the bore, other times it tries to feed with a partially ejected casing (like the picture below). I do not know, I may have to go out with somebody who is knowledgeable about troubleshooting these kinds of problems in person to fully understand how this rifle behaves. http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k145/mkruger_2006/0520141523_zps6a49eee0.jpg Matt it's probably gas system related. Whereabouts do you live? I might have some time Saturday morning if you're in the nw valley. |
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When I clear the attempted fed round and drop the mag, I can pull the charging handle back, release and then pull back again and the casing ejects just fine. FWIW, I tried out a few steel case rounds I had laying around and had not 1 issue running those 10 rounds.
Matt |
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Bluphire, probably a combination of things. Pedigree of parts?
You're probably looking at something gas system related coupled with insufficient extractor tension. What type of extractor spring and insert do you have in the gun? Alternatively, ejector spring may be weak if the brass is being retained by the extractor but not ejecting correctly. |
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LOL. We're not really asking about how it happened, but has anyone seen it before. It sounds like we know how it happened, failure to eject, new round fed. Two in the same hole just never works out. Quoted:
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Wot? With a round in the chamber, the dust cover closed and fired, the bolt travels rearward with more force than manually cycling it by yourself...which means it isn't the dust cover causing that issue. 90 percent of the weapon jamming is due by magazines, always the Achilles heel of any magazine fed gun. I'm going with bolt bounce. LOL. We're not really asking about how it happened, but has anyone seen it before. It sounds like we know how it happened, failure to eject, new round fed. Two in the same hole just never works out.
Still what happened to you is freakish, man. I still think bolt bounce caused it...what receiver extension are you using, buffer weight, and length of barrel/gas tube length? |
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Trying to figure out how you could rack rack rack and say the dust cover is still closed. Unpossible unless you've got a dicked up dust cover without the protrusion. I'm assuming what you meant is that you couldn't rack the carrier rearward? Or that the carrier never went into battery before you closed the dust cover? In which case you should have been able to feel the difference. Very strange. Trying to picture where the carrier would have to be in order to actually get the dust cover closed out of battery with a double feed. Carrier must have barely gone forward. I would have thought that would have been obvious but if you were taking off after a rabbit I guess I could see that. Hmmm.....fun malf to work. Carrier only had about 2 inches of rearward travel when i was racking it. |
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I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I have been having a similar issue with my first build. Today was the 1st day I took it out with enough battery life on my phone to snap a picture of the malfunction. I cannot get through a full 30rd mag without this occurring several times throughout the 30rds. Sometimes it will try to feed a round with a casing still in the bore, other times it tries to feed with a partially ejected casing (like the picture below). I do not know, I may have to go out with somebody who is knowledgeable about troubleshooting these kinds of problems in person to fully understand how this rifle behaves. http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k145/mkruger_2006/0520141523_zps6a49eee0.jpg Matt That is really close to what mine looked like. |
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I've had a magazine drop on me while firing and maneuvering at the IBC range at Ft. Drum, hammer follow that worked in reverse and slowed down the ignition while qualifications at NTC, a brand new A4 in Germany that would FTF and was giving light primer strikes, and while firing steel I had gotten my only double feeds. I stay away from steel for now on and being cheap learned me
Still what happened to you is freakish, man. I still think bolt bounce caused it...what receiver extension are you using, buffer weight, and length of barrel/gas tube length? Quoted:
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Wot? With a round in the chamber, the dust cover closed and fired, the bolt travels rearward with more force than manually cycling it by yourself...which means it isn't the dust cover causing that issue. 90 percent of the weapon jamming is due by magazines, always the Achilles heel of any magazine fed gun. I'm going with bolt bounce. LOL. We're not really asking about how it happened, but has anyone seen it before. It sounds like we know how it happened, failure to eject, new round fed. Two in the same hole just never works out.
Still what happened to you is freakish, man. I still think bolt bounce caused it...what receiver extension are you using, buffer weight, and length of barrel/gas tube length? Ace pistol buffer tube. Car buffer. 10.5 carbine gas system barrel. |
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I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I have been having a similar issue with my first build. Today was the 1st day I took it out with enough battery life on my phone to snap a picture of the malfunction. I cannot get through a full 30rd mag without this occurring several times throughout the 30rds. Sometimes it will try to feed a round with a casing still in the bore, other times it tries to feed with a partially ejected casing (like the picture below). I do not know, I may have to go out with somebody who is knowledgeable about troubleshooting these kinds of problems in person to fully understand how this rifle behaves. http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k145/mkruger_2006/0520141523_zps6a49eee0.jpg Matt Given the rifle is sometimes leaving a round in the chamber, the extractor is failing to pull the case out. I would check the extractor spring, bumper, and O-ring. Make sure you have at least an extractor spring with the blue or black bumper inside it. From the description of the funny bunny malfunction: drop mag, push the BCG back with fingers/stick/pocketknife through the magwell. This should relieve pressure on the stuck case, getting it to drop free, and possibly open the port door in the process. This sounded like the classic bolt override stuck case. Racking the charge handle only sticks the fired casing harder into the malfunction. Relieving the pressure by pushing the BCG back will clear this malfunction. |
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BCM low profile, yes. Set screws from the bottom. Matt Quoted:
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And the gas block, is it a low profile with set screws pushing upwards, making a bad seal, or an adjustable, that lets more gas escape than it should? BCM low profile, yes. Set screws from the bottom. Matt @ LukeDuke, you have the right parts, not bolt bounce. The only way I know that the BCG can get stuck and if the dust cover was closed already, was by an assist breaking and stuck into the assist marks on the carrier. |
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I've never heard of this one happening before, but it happened to another ARFcommer. A double feed, with the dust cover closed. Maybe a round jumped out of the mag due to worn feed lips? Maybe it was already a double feed and he manually closed the dustcover without realizing it? Either way, how would you go about clearing this without something to pry the dustcover open? I was able to simulate this, round in chamber and one over the bolt, and it pretty takes the gun down. Trying to clear it just jammed the top round into the channel in the upper. You have to break it open and remove the bolt to clear it. Tough one, because you can't even see what's going on. Anyone else ever see this happen? Quoted:
I've never heard of this one happening before, but it happened to another ARFcommer. A double feed, with the dust cover closed. Maybe a round jumped out of the mag due to worn feed lips? Maybe it was already a double feed and he manually closed the dustcover without realizing it? Either way, how would you go about clearing this without something to pry the dustcover open? I was able to simulate this, round in chamber and one over the bolt, and it pretty takes the gun down. Trying to clear it just jammed the top round into the channel in the upper. You have to break it open and remove the bolt to clear it. Tough one, because you can't even see what's going on. Anyone else ever see this happen? A real possibility was what you mentioned above about the magazine but not so much on the feed lips, rather a weak spring or debris jamming the follower in the mag. Like you mentioned above, if the dust cover was already closed and a loose round released, then if in the right position, would push both rounds into the chamber: one being inserted and another trying to. To clear such a jam would be to remove the magazine and cycle the action to either release tension on the round and drop it. Or, if that didn't work, you would lock the bolt to the rear and finger f#&* it and attempt to free the jammed rounds. A real common malfunction during early 30 round magazines during the Vietnam War, when spring tension wore overtime constantly loading them to capacity. Eventually leading to loading them at 20 rounds. Quoted:
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And the gas block, is it a low profile with set screws pushing upwards, making a bad seal, or an adjustable, that lets more gas escape than it should? BCM low profile, yes. Set screws from the bottom. Matt @ LukeDuke, you have the right parts, not bolt bounce. The only way I know that the BCG can get stuck and if the dust cover was closed already, was by an assist breaking and stuck into the assist marks on the carrier. I hate to stomp you on this but set screw has blocks don't have that issue. The screws push up on the barrel but pull down on the gas block, actually creating a better seal. Despite that, the tolerance on these blocks are incredibly tight (on reputable manufacturers) that usually have no negative or positive effect. |
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Get one that clamps at the side, because as other's stated previously, you have a gas issue and that gas block with the set screw is pushing the block up and away from maintaining a good seal. @ LukeDuke, you have the right parts, not bolt bounce. The only way I know that the BCG can get stuck and if the dust cover was closed already, was by an assist breaking and stuck into the assist marks on the carrier. Quoted:
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And the gas block, is it a low profile with set screws pushing upwards, making a bad seal, or an adjustable, that lets more gas escape than it should? BCM low profile, yes. Set screws from the bottom. Matt @ LukeDuke, you have the right parts, not bolt bounce. The only way I know that the BCG can get stuck and if the dust cover was closed already, was by an assist breaking and stuck into the assist marks on the carrier. That's not possible. The set screws are on the bottom, the gas port is on the top. The screws "pull" the gas block down and create a very tight seal. |
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Actually by pushing upwards, it push's the whole block up, creating that gap. But if you truly believe that it doesn't, then wow...physics does not lie. I don't think you understand. The action of the screw on the barrel forces the gas block down. Not up. You need to think this through a little more. I can see how you would think that, but I promise you, the opposite is happening. |
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AR Pistol?
If so I would suspect weak ejection due to no solid base for the recoil, hence the fired case still present to fubar the chambering of a new round... When you made your 'snap shot' you likely did not provide a firm enough base/platform for the firearm to cycle properly, based on your description of events I do not think the dust cover had anything to do with the malf. |
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AR Pistol? If so I would suspect weak ejection due to no solid base for the recoil, hence the fired case still present to fubar the chambering of a new round... When you made your 'snap shot' you likely did not provide a firm enough base/platform for the firearm to cycle properly, based on your description of events I do not think the dust cover had anything to do with the malf. Do you even sig sb15 bro? Lol. Its possible tho. Definitely the dust cover was closed after the double feed happened. Thats the only double feed ive had with the weapon. |
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Do you even sig sb15 bro? Lol. Its possible tho. Definitely the dust cover was closed after the double feed happened. Thats the only double feed ive had with the weapon. Quoted:
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AR Pistol? If so I would suspect weak ejection due to no solid base for the recoil, hence the fired case still present to fubar the chambering of a new round... When you made your 'snap shot' you likely did not provide a firm enough base/platform for the firearm to cycle properly, based on your description of events I do not think the dust cover had anything to do with the malf. Do you even sig sb15 bro? Lol. Its possible tho. Definitely the dust cover was closed after the double feed happened. Thats the only double feed ive had with the weapon. Same thing with "limp wristing" Glock, also seen it alot with USMIL shooting the AK while wearing IBA due to poor stock weld, what worked for shooting the M4 w/ IBA did not always translate well to .30 AK rifles, only malfs we would get were FTE and always due to poor stock weld. I am not saying you are "weak" or cannot shoot, just that a recoil operated rifle caliber handgun usually needs some anchoring to cycle reliably... 
edited to change DF to FTE |
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To address two misconceptions put forth thus far:
AR pistols in rifle calibers are not recoil operated, they are gas operated. They do no suffer from "limp-wristing." Watch some high speed video. The bullet exits the barrel, the bolt unlocks, the carrier travels rearward, and the empty case is ejected long before there's any appreciable movement to the rest of the system, certainly not enough to cause a malfunction. It just does not work the same way as a recoil-operated platform. It's not a Glock, it's not a Benelli. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPwTGfhUulk Set screw gas block do not push the gas block away from the gas port, the set screws pull the top of the gas block down on to the top of the barrel. Seriously, this is how it works. Not even lying. |
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recoil operated, gas operated whateva...ok Mr. Browning. point is, it aint a bolt gun and there is some serious important mechanical shit going on.
And my experience based on plenty of observation tells me that not providing a stable firing platform for, yes, even a rifle, will likely lead to intermittent malfunctions that would otherwise not occur. You can say it is impossible....all I can say is that I've seen it. |
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recoil operated, gas operated whateva...ok Mr. Browning. point is, it aint a bolt gun and there is some serious important mechanical shit going on. And my experience based on plenty of observation tells me that not providing a stable firing platform for, yes, even a rifle, will likely lead to intermittent malfunctions that would otherwise not occur. You can say it is impossible....all I can say is that I've seen it. I tend to agree with this. |
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recoil operated, gas operated whateva...ok Mr. Browning. point is, it aint a bolt gun and there is some serious important mechanical shit going on. And my experience based on plenty of observation tells me that not providing a stable firing platform for, yes, even a rifle, will likely lead to intermittent malfunctions that would otherwise not occur. You can say it is impossible....all I can say is that I've seen it. I've seen enough 3rd world retards popping off AK's over the tops of walls without issue that observation tells me that it's not the first thing I'd try and blame a malfunction on. Which is the platform to originally attributed your judgement based on. Considering you can lay an AR on top of a rest and pull the trigger sans any sort of support other than gravity and it will cycle, again it wouldn't be the first thing I'd try and blame a malfunction on. AR pistols are FAR FAR FAR more likely to be caused by a gas system issue, typically related to giant oversized gas ports and dwell times measure in red c*nt hairs than "limp-wristing" the gun, especially considering either the use of that Sig monstrosity or another hand on the handguard would easily mitigate any type of "intertia induced" malfunction. |
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:) Yep you hijacked the thread. Your picture shows that the bolt went back far enough to grab the next round off the magazine and it took the expended cartridge case back with it. It went back far enough to chuck that casing out the ejection port but it didn't. I would check the ejector spring tension. Take the bolt out of the gun and hold a live round with the rim trapped under the extractor and see if you can flip it across the room.
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I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I have been having a similar issue with my first build. Today was the 1st day I took it out with enough battery life on my phone to snap a picture of the malfunction. I cannot get through a full 30rd mag without this occurring several times throughout the 30rds. Sometimes it will try to feed a round with a casing still in the bore, other times it tries to feed with a partially ejected casing (like the picture below). I do not know, I may have to go out with somebody who is knowledgeable about troubleshooting these kinds of problems in person to fully understand how this rifle behaves. http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k145/mkruger_2006/0520141523_zps6a49eee0.jpg Matt |
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I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I have been having a similar issue with my first build. Today was the 1st day I took it out with enough battery life on my phone to snap a picture of the malfunction. I cannot get through a full 30rd mag without this occurring several times throughout the 30rds. Sometimes it will try to feed a round with a casing still in the bore, other times it tries to feed with a partially ejected casing (like the picture below). I do not know, I may have to go out with somebody who is knowledgeable about troubleshooting these kinds of problems in person to fully understand how this rifle behaves. http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k145/mkruger_2006/0520141523_zps6a49eee0.jpg Matt The bolt went back far enough to eject the expended cartridge case but it didn't. I would check the ejector spring tension by removing the bolt from the rifle and seeing if you can flip a dummy round across the room. |
| If it's leaving cases in the chamber and you have a decent extractor then your bolt velocity is too high. What brand barrel? Gas port measurement? If the port is in spec then you need a heavier buffer. If it's oversized then you need to get an adjustable gas block and likely a heavier buffer still...or a new in spec barrel. |