Posted: 10/28/2013 11:02:08 PM EDT
 
"I don't like it at all. How would you like to get up on Sunday morning at 7 a.m. and hear high-powered gunfire in your backyard? How would you like that?" Butterfield asked. "That isn't the nature of the Arizona that I thought I was moving to. For eight years it was peaceful, but it's not now." http://www.prescottaz.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=124724 TLDR: Owner of J&G owns a huge ranch and has a gun range. County and Neighbors are not happy. Lawsuits ensue. |
|
Quoted:
 Is there shooting land around there available to the public? I would move my shooting spot to within earshot of these whiny fucks if so. If everyone did that daily maybe they would move away.Victor, If you find a spot let me know. I am thinking a 6am range session on Saturday morning. My Scar will surely wake up the neighborhood. |
|
Please don't confuse Williamson Valley with Prescott. This is the land of Rolex Ranchers up here.
You do have to wonder though after looking at the photos, what he's up to. That isn't exactly a one or two lane range he's building out there. If I was a neighbor I'd be more concerned as to whether he has some sort of a commercial venture in mind. In my view, THAT'S a little different than hearing your neighbor shooting once in a while. This is a case where this time the neighbors were there first. I'd really have to see the set backs from the others' properties. In any case, I'm not so sure shooting at 7am on a Sunday is a good effort at being a good neighbor. There may be a "history" behind that though. |
|
Quoted:
"I don't like it at all. How would you like to get up on Sunday morning at 7 a.m. and hear high-powered gunfire in your backyard? How would you like that?" Butterfield asked. "That isn't the nature of the Arizona that I thought I was moving to. For eight years it was peaceful, but it's not now." http://www.prescottaz.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=124724 TLDR: Owner of J&G owns a huge ranch and has a gun range. County and Neighbors are not happy. Lawsuits ensue. He paid $839,000 for 370 acres in April. He's got several problems. For tax purposes, he's listed as primary use grazing land. He's only being taxed at $11,000 because of that special use. Unfortunately, he's not big enough to qualify which means he leases his property to a real ranch to obtain that status. You have to have thousands of acres of land to qualify for grazing land (or lease it to someone who does). Since he leases his property for grazing, he can't build a shooting range(s) and have grazing be the primary use. And apparently he notified no one that he was doing it. In any case, he's going to loose that grazing status if he wants to keep his shooting ranges (and then he may fall under different zoning ordinances as was alluded to). He may win but it's gonna cost him. He's 3.5 miles north of Ms. Butterfield. I can't believe she's the only one with an issue. Other places are much closer but still a mile away. Not a bad place for a nice range. 
|
|
Quoted:
I'm of the strong opinion that if I buy property, I should pretty much be able to do whatever I want with it. As long as it doesn't infringe on the safety of anyone else. Noise doesn't fit that definition, in my opinion.  You can (sort of) if no one complains and you pay your fair share of tax. To make noise, you have to notify your neighbors (the community) first, well, not really but obviously they're defining him in a way that includes noise and safety. Safety includes mental health. We know this. Just ask the family with the noisy dog (just kidding). By the way, he probably could have built his berms if he did a public notice (and got a permit). And he still will probably be able to. It's just gonna cost him way more now. I think his biggest problem is the way his property is listed for tax purposes. You have to qualify for grazing land and depending on how he declared the land, he may have limited himself. Not a big deal except in the wallet. |
|
Quoted:
I'm of the strong opinion that if I buy property, I should pretty much be able to do whatever I want with it. As long as it doesn't infringe on the safety of anyone else. Noise doesn't fit that definition, in my opinion. Let me play Devil's Advocate: a new neighbor moves in next to you in a house he purchased outright. Late at night he loves having parties with loud music of whatever kind that you hate, and every morning the lawn is packed with garbage, empty beer cans, and half-conscious drunk people. During the day he runs a train horn mechanic shop out of his house, even though he has no licensing for it, the land is not zoned for it, and he is not paying the appropriate taxes on it ("People get too much without having to pay their share in taxes!" is a cry we hear often here in the HTF). None of this infringes on your safety, so you'll be okay with it, right? My point is, it's easy to side with someone who is doing something you agree with, but not always the other way around. I'm not saying that this shooting range shouldn't be allowed, but I am saying that if you want to do potentially controversial things, you need to cross your T's and dot your I's and not try to circumnavigate the system. Building a range is an expensive PITA, trust me on that one. FWIW, I hope he gets everything approved, but it's going to possibly cost him more now than it would have originally. |
|
Quoted:
Let me play Devil's Advocate: a new neighbor moves in next to you in a house he purchased outright. Late at night he loves having parties with loud music of whatever kind that you hate, and every morning the lawn is packed with garbage, empty beer cans, and half-conscious drunk people. During the day he runs a train horn mechanic shop out of his house, even though he has no licensing for it..... Yep, NEVER trust an Amish family that moves in next door after paying with cash.... 
|
|
Quoted:
Let me play Devil's Advocate: a new neighbor moves in next to you in a house he purchased outright. Late at night he loves having parties with loud music of whatever kind that you hate, and every morning the lawn is packed with garbage, empty beer cans, and half-conscious drunk people. During the day he runs a train horn mechanic shop out of his house, even though he has no licensing for it, the land is not zoned for it, and he is not paying the appropriate taxes on it ("People get too much without having to pay their share in taxes!" is a cry we hear often here in the HTF). None of this infringes on your safety, so you'll be okay with it, right? My point is, it's easy to side with someone who is doing something you agree with, but not always the other way around. I'm not saying that this shooting range shouldn't be allowed, but I am saying that if you want to do potentially controversial things, you need to cross your T's and dot your I's and not try to circumnavigate the system. Building a range is an expensive PITA, trust me on that one. FWIW, I hope he gets everything approved, but it's going to possibly cost him more now than it would have originally. Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm of the strong opinion that if I buy property, I should pretty much be able to do whatever I want with it. As long as it doesn't infringe on the safety of anyone else. Noise doesn't fit that definition, in my opinion. Let me play Devil's Advocate: a new neighbor moves in next to you in a house he purchased outright. Late at night he loves having parties with loud music of whatever kind that you hate, and every morning the lawn is packed with garbage, empty beer cans, and half-conscious drunk people. During the day he runs a train horn mechanic shop out of his house, even though he has no licensing for it, the land is not zoned for it, and he is not paying the appropriate taxes on it ("People get too much without having to pay their share in taxes!" is a cry we hear often here in the HTF). None of this infringes on your safety, so you'll be okay with it, right? My point is, it's easy to side with someone who is doing something you agree with, but not always the other way around. I'm not saying that this shooting range shouldn't be allowed, but I am saying that if you want to do potentially controversial things, you need to cross your T's and dot your I's and not try to circumnavigate the system. Building a range is an expensive PITA, trust me on that one. FWIW, I hope he gets everything approved, but it's going to possibly cost him more now than it would have originally. Yeah, OK. I kinda get your point.
That said, I honestly wouldn't mind that much if my neighbor did what he did during the day. I say that, but I moved from my last house because of my neighbors, so I guess I don't exactly practice what I preach. |
|
Quoted:
Since you didn't quote me - I have no Idea what your talking about ! Quoted:
Since you didn't quote me - I have no Idea what your talking about ! Quoted:
^^^That's just silly.^^^ They're vocal. They whine and they cry. And then get massacred at the poles. Do you live up here or down in the quickly turning blue valley? |
|
If the Valley turns blue AZ is lost. That is ~50% of the state's voting population.
As for the gun range, if he has the land & backstops you can't stop him from shooting under current law. Now if it becomes a business instead of a private rang that changes things. |
|
Quoted:
If the Valley turns blue AZ is lost. That is ~50% of the state's voting population. As for the gun range, if he has the land & backstops you can't stop him from shooting under current law. Now if it becomes a business instead of a private rang that changes things. That's his problem. He doesn't have backstops (he's on flat ground) and even in Arizona you have to have permits to create them (which he didn't get). And now he's gonna have to pay through the ass for them because they aren't just berms. He actually created depressions which will probably now have to have drains (who knows what they'll come up with). He's in for some fun and now he's got 50 people in the community that probably wouldn't have even noticed his little public announcement had he thought about what he was doing. Prescott (Yavapai County) is hell when it comes to building or changing anything. |
Having owned rural acreage in three different AZ counties (Cochise, Mohave, Apache)........and having gone thru the "Agricultural Exemption" process, I'll chime in.
An Ag. Exemption can not be denied if the applicant meets the criteria....minumum 5 acres, correct rural zoning, approved Agricultural pursuit, etc. When granted....It allows the owner to pursue certain agricultural endeavors WITHOUT county interference. NO COUNTY permits necessary, NO COUNTY codes apply.......but ONLY CONCERNING the agricultural pursuit. This has NO bearing on taxes.....they still apply, you still pay them. The county typically will never assist you in the process (think of all the $ they lose)......they want Az residents in the dark about the law. Once you get one, you better maintain you're "pursuits", some counties pay attention. Wells, septic and the like are not covered. In other words, if my exemption is based on raising chickens, rabbits and a greenhouse.......I can build everything necessary in pursuit of that WITHOUT getting the county's blessing. AND...this includes house/outbuildings because the AZ Sup. Ct. ruled on a Yuma Cty case that "living" on the land you intend to "work" is legitimate and in step with the whole reason the law was enacted....therefore a dwelling falls under the law. Downside is resale value...because if built without permits/to code, you must disclose. So....an Ag. Ex. does a lot to take the .gov out of your life......but a private range would not qualify or have anything to do with an Ag. Ex. His zoning would have to be rural to get the ex. in the first place, so shooting should be legal as long as safe. "MOST" rural sheriffs dept.s go off the "1/4 mile rule" concerning shooting. Its actually a G&F hunting law, but it is often applied to target shooting when they are called about shooting "disturbances". On the acreage he owns, there is NO reason he could not have placed his "range" in such a way to minimize any disturbance. A range placed in the center of 380 acres is HUGELY different than one placed within 100 yards of a property line....common sense goes along way with this. Another issue, which isn't mentioned but I wonder about....is if this is "simple subdivided" rural acreage....or there is a property owners association.....MANY "ranchettes" in this state have these assoc.'s and they SUCK, and WILL get the county to enforce covenants. I've seen it. |
|
Quoted:
Prescott is lost to the LIBS from Kali - We need to watch out for those "Voters" -- They could screw up this state Not entirely lost. I moved to Prescott from Indiana and I'm about as liberal as Mocha Jesus is conservative. Sedona, on the other hand, is truly lost.
|
|
Quoted:
Yeah, OK. I kinda get your point.
That said, I honestly wouldn't mind that much if my neighbor did what he did during the day. I say that, but I moved from my last house because of my neighbors, so I guess I don't exactly practice what I preach. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm of the strong opinion that if I buy property, I should pretty much be able to do whatever I want with it. As long as it doesn't infringe on the safety of anyone else. Noise doesn't fit that definition, in my opinion. Let me play Devil's Advocate: a new neighbor moves in next to you in a house he purchased outright. Late at night he loves having parties with loud music of whatever kind that you hate, and every morning the lawn is packed with garbage, empty beer cans, and half-conscious drunk people. During the day he runs a train horn mechanic shop out of his house, even though he has no licensing for it, the land is not zoned for it, and he is not paying the appropriate taxes on it ("People get too much without having to pay their share in taxes!" is a cry we hear often here in the HTF). None of this infringes on your safety, so you'll be okay with it, right? My point is, it's easy to side with someone who is doing something you agree with, but not always the other way around. I'm not saying that this shooting range shouldn't be allowed, but I am saying that if you want to do potentially controversial things, you need to cross your T's and dot your I's and not try to circumnavigate the system. Building a range is an expensive PITA, trust me on that one. FWIW, I hope he gets everything approved, but it's going to possibly cost him more now than it would have originally. Yeah, OK. I kinda get your point.
That said, I honestly wouldn't mind that much if my neighbor did what he did during the day. I say that, but I moved from my last house because of my neighbors, so I guess I don't exactly practice what I preach. I was just about to say "didn't your neighbors pretty much contribute to you vacating the last place?"
I agree with the sentiment but there's always the asshole that wants to burn his part of the world. |
|
Quoted:
Is there shooting land around there available to the public? I would move my shooting spot to within earshot of these whiny fucks if so. If everyone did that daily maybe they would move away.
But the public range will be moving I hear, because the tard's get upset if they hear double tap's and mag dump's. I guess mangina's and pussies can't handle it 
|
|
Quoted:
Victor, If you find a spot let me know. I am thinking a 6am range session on Saturday morning. My Scar will surely wake up the neighborhood. Quoted:
Quoted:
Is there shooting land around there available to the public? I would move my shooting spot to within earshot of these whiny fucks if so. If everyone did that daily maybe they would move away.Victor, If you find a spot let me know. I am thinking a 6am range session on Saturday morning. My Scar will surely wake up the neighborhood. |
|
Quoted:
Since you didn't quote me - I have no Idea what your talking about ! Quoted:
Since you didn't quote me - I have no Idea what your talking about ! Quoted:
^^^That's just silly.^^^
This whole town is full of FBHO. Heck you can't even start a conversation without hearing it at least once or twice, from the cashiers at Frye's or Safeway, to the local barbershops. But you mau hear differently at the two local Wally Worlds  .
|
|
Quoted:
Having owned rural acreage in three different AZ counties (Cochise, Mohave, Apache)........and having gone thru the "Agricultural Exemption" process, I'll chime in.
An Ag. Exemption can not be denied if the applicant meets the criteria....minumum 5 acres, correct rural zoning, approved Agricultural pursuit, etc. When granted....It allows the owner to pursue certain agricultural endeavors WITHOUT county interference. NO COUNTY permits necessary, NO COUNTY codes apply.......but ONLY CONCERNING the agricultural pursuit. This has NO bearing on taxes.....they still apply, you still pay them. The county typically will never assist you in the process (think of all the $ they lose)......they want Az residents in the dark about the law. Once you get one, you better maintain you're "pursuits", some counties pay attention. Wells, septic and the like are not covered. In other words, if my exemption is based on raising chickens, rabbits and a greenhouse.......I can build everything necessary in pursuit of that WITHOUT getting the county's blessing. AND...this includes house/outbuildings because the AZ Sup. Ct. ruled on a Yuma Cty case that "living" on the land you intend to "work" is legitimate and in step with the whole reason the law was enacted....therefore a dwelling falls under the law. Downside is resale value...because if built without permits/to code, you must disclose. So....an Ag. Ex. does a lot to take the .gov out of your life......but a private range would not qualify or have anything to do with an Ag. Ex. His zoning would have to be rural to get the ex. in the first place, so shooting should be legal as long as safe. "MOST" rural sheriffs dept.s go off the "1/4 mile rule" concerning shooting. Its actually a G&F hunting law, but it is often applied to target shooting when they are called about shooting "disturbances". On the acreage he owns, there is NO reason he could not have placed his "range" in such a way to minimize any disturbance. A range placed in the center of 380 acres is HUGELY different than one placed within 100 yards of a property line....common sense goes along way with this. Another issue, which isn't mentioned but I wonder about....is if this is "simple subdivided" rural acreage....or there is a property owners association.....MANY "ranchettes" in this state have these assoc.'s and they SUCK, and WILL get the county to enforce covenants. I've seen it. interesting |
|
Quoted:
IM me, and the range open's up at 0800. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is there shooting land around there available to the public? I would move my shooting spot to within earshot of these whiny fucks if so. If everyone did that daily maybe they would move away.Victor, If you find a spot let me know. I am thinking a 6am range session on Saturday morning. My Scar will surely wake up the neighborhood. I'm a morning person and I'd be inclined to bring out a .308 AR with an X brake if the invite is extended. |
|
Quoted:
Yep
But the public range will be moving I hear, because the tard's get upset if they hear double tap's and mag dump's. I guess mangina's and pussies can't handle it
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is there shooting land around there available to the public? I would move my shooting spot to within earshot of these whiny fucks if so. If everyone did that daily maybe they would move away.
But the public range will be moving I hear, because the tard's get upset if they hear double tap's and mag dump's. I guess mangina's and pussies can't handle it
If you are referring to the Prescott Sportsman Club, I heard they are moving because the lease they have with the USFS is expiring and the USFS will not renew. |
|
Quoted:
I'm a morning person and I'd be inclined to bring out a .308 AR with an X brake if the invite is extended. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is there shooting land around there available to the public? I would move my shooting spot to within earshot of these whiny fucks if so. If everyone did that daily maybe they would move away.Victor, If you find a spot let me know. I am thinking a 6am range session on Saturday morning. My Scar will surely wake up the neighborhood. I'm a morning person and I'd be inclined to bring out a .308 AR with an X brake if the invite is extended. |
|
Quoted:
Yes sir, I like meeting and shooting with all the AZHTF arfcomers. I'd bring one of my Battlecomp equiped AR's, as it's exceptionally loud. Thank you GSL. Anytime you all are up for making a little noise, shoot me an IM when and where. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is there shooting land around there available to the public? I would move my shooting spot to within earshot of these whiny fucks if so. If everyone did that daily maybe they would move away.Victor, If you find a spot let me know. I am thinking a 6am range session on Saturday morning. My Scar will surely wake up the neighborhood. I'm a morning person and I'd be inclined to bring out a .308 AR with an X brake if the invite is extended. Thank you GSL. Anytime you all are up for making a little noise, shoot me an IM when and where. |
|
Quoted:
Do they have a new place or are they still looking? Quoted:
Quoted:
If you are referring to the Prescott Sportsman Club, I heard they are moving because the lease they have with the USFS is expiring and the USFS will not renew. Do they have a new place or are they still looking? They are in the process of moving all operations to the already operational Chino Valley Shooting Facility. |
|
Quoted:
They are in the process of moving all operations to the already operational Chino Valley Shooting Facility. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you are referring to the Prescott Sportsman Club, I heard they are moving because the lease they have with the USFS is expiring and the USFS will not renew. Do they have a new place or are they still looking? They are in the process of moving all operations to the already operational Chino Valley Shooting Facility. I need to check out that range next time I'm there. |