Posted: 10/9/2012 11:36:34 PM EDT
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So it's about 11:45 pm (tonight), I had just gotten back from walking the dogs, undressed, and was getting ready to crawl in to bed when I hear a child screaming bloody murder outside. It's unusual to have kids making noise in this complex to begin with, none of my neighbors have children, this was the kind of scream that raises red flags anyways, and with it being so late at night... It got my blood pumping, to put it simply.
Still in my skivvies, I grabbed my cell phone and my .45 and ran out on the balcony. I see a younger guy dragging a ~4-6 year old girl through the parking lot by her arm. She was kicking and screaming and dragging her feet. I watched this for a few seconds, and finally yelled something to the effect of, "what's going on down there? are you ok?" I had no way of knowing if it was a parent dealing with an obstinate child, a kidnapping in progress, if they were heading for a car or an apartment, or what... I didn't get a response so I more aggressively yelled "hey!" and the guy turned and said "mind your own fucking business!" by then another neighbor across the way had flipped her lights on and come out on the balcony and shouted something as well. I figured if it was a kidnapper they likely would've ditched the kid and ran, but it still didn't rule out something else was going on. They kept going. Given that I was about to lose sight of them as they went under a carport on the opposite side of the parking lot, the reaction of the guy, and the fact that the kid was still screaming and crying, I made the decision to call the police while slipping some shoes on quickly to go down stairs to see if I could tell where they disappeared to. I didn't approach the other building or anything like that and I couldn't see where they went. Still on the phone with the PD, I ran back upstairs, slipped some shorts on, ditched the big shiny .45, threw my P238 in my pocket, and headed back down to meet the cops, who showed up in under a minute. The first responding officer asked a few quick questions and headed towards the other building. At least two more cars pulled up and they seemed to be just waiting to hear something. The other neighbor that shouted something came down a couple minutes later (I guess when she saw the cops?) and she had (apparently) seen where they went from her porch. Another officer took my contact info and asked a few more questions before sending me home. At last check they were still down there. I'm guessing I did the right thing by calling the cops in this situation, but it leaves a lot of doubt, especially when there's a child involved. Should you do more, should you do less, should you tell them to stop, should you say nothing and just observe... There's no way to truly prepare yourself or train for situations like this where it's unclear what's actually happening, and if you're overstepping your bounds or overreacting at face value of the situation. I mean, you see kids throwing tantrums on a daily basis and their irritated parents are just trying to drag them out of there to get on with their business, and I suppose if this had all happened in the middle of the day I wouldn't have thought much of it, but given the context... I don't know. What do you guys think? What would you have done? Confronted the guy? Gone back inside and turned the TV on? Ugh. |
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seems like you did fine to me. Hard to say with those things. Can't really know if I would have done anything different. You would think a stranger kidnapping would not be okay with witnesses. Could have been a parent kidnapping but in that situation not much you should do there . |
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Pretty much the issue I had - lots of gray area. Could've been nothing and could've been a crime in progress. Too hard to say. I ran it through my head, in not-so-clear terms, "would I rather let it be and read about a dead kid tomorrow, or call the cops and risk pissing some neighbor off and the PD finding nothing wrong?" Besides, if I was that dude, presumably the parent, and I had a legit reason to be dragging the kid through the parking lot in the middle of the night, I'd like to think I'd be understanding if the neighbors took it the wrong way. Lets hope that's the case.
Just went outside. 2 cars still there. I think if something was really wrong there'd be more. I'm guessing they're probably just making sure everything's ok at this point before they take off. |
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The worst thing you could have done was nothing at all.
I saw this special on I think NBC or something where the news reporters set up exactly what you describe on a busy NYC street. Kid screaming, adult saying its just an out of control child. The special report really just wanted to see how people react in the scenario. I do remember part of the show where someone did call the cops and they had really great timing. You can see the cameramen come out from the shadows and the producer had to explain what was going on. AH, found the video Child Abduction |
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Something similar happened to me about 5 years ago. We walked our dog every day a couple times a day. One day we saw a young boy of about 10-11 y/o walking down the path around the pond. We were near a middle & high school About a minute later a lone male in a car pulled up very rapidly and exited his car leaving it running, door open in a relatively busy road and made a very fast intercept path to the kid. The kid took off running. Guy gets back in his car and tries to cut the kid off and then does the same thing. There was never any communication between the two indicating that they knew each other. No yelling, nothing. The guy gets back in his car and takes off seemingly abandoning the chase. I got his plate and description of him & his vehicle. I called 911. We were walking around the township's civic campus and the cop shop was literally 400 yards away. There were 3 squads out there in under a minute. One car picked up the kid. A couple minutes later they had the driver pulled over about a mile away. They brought him back for us to ID. Turns out it was a step dad going after his step son who was running away after some kind of domestic pre-teen drama. He was very apologetic and said he understood entirely why we got the impression he did and didn't blame us one bit for calling it in. |
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Well I finally went to bed. No police called or knocked on my door to follow up and take statements or anything, so I'm assuming things were fine. Now that it's not the middle of the night and I'm fully awake, I feel better about my rationale last night. Again just goes to show how state of mind and unclear circumstances can have you second guessing yourself even if you're somewhat more prepared than the average person to respond to something like that.
Quoted:Turns out it was a step dad going after his step son who was running away after some kind of domestic pre-teen drama. He was very apologetic and said he understood entirely why we got the impression he did and didn't blame us one bit for calling it in. Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm guessing it was something like that happening last night. Kid's being a pain in the ass because dad had her out too late, won't get out of the car and is throwing a fit, etc. It's easy to see. I hope the guy is as understanding as the one in your circumstances. He knows where I live, where my truck is parked, etc. I'm not too worried about it but it's all part of what runs through your head in a case like this. As a parent, I'd be appreciate that someone else had my kid's back if something like this went down. Better safe than sorry.
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You were a good witness, that's what you do in a case like this. The only time you intervene further, is when you have no doubt that there is truely a kidnapping happening, anything else could end up with you getting charged. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile This. Well done overall. Any loving parent would understand your behavior. If MY kid were being kidnapped, I'd be all about having a witness call the police. If it was something different (bratty kid being dragged inside by dad) then I'd understand your position and gladly explain my side to the cops. "Mind your own fucking business" is not what I would say to you if I were dragging *my* bratty child inside, but if dad was "up to here" with said bratty kid, well, you might have just caught him in a bad mood. Either way, good on you for acting. |
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You know what I like about this post? You ARTICULATED everything, from the environment, the physical characteristics of the child and adult, their behavior, your considerations, etc. You wrote a better description of what was going on and what was going though your mind than 90% of the reports I read at work authored by fellow cops.
First off, you obviously had a lot going through your head. You considered all the angles. My hat's off to you. You did good. Sounds like you were prepared to take more aggressive action if you needed to, but you did just the right amount in my opinion. I'm glad the female neighbor also came out, in case this guy is a douche bag. That way he's less likely to target you for calling the cops, as he obviously raised enough ruckus to alert more than one neighbor. What city are you in? |
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You should have shot him dead where he stood when he told you mind you own fucking business.
13-411. Justification; use of force in crime prevention; applicability A. A person is justified in threatening or using both physical force and deadly physical force against another if and to the extent the person reasonably believes that physical force or deadly physical force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's commission of arson of an occupied structure under section 13-1704, burglary in the second or first degree under section 13-1507 or 13-1508, kidnapping under section 13-1304, manslaughter under section 13-1103, second or first degree murder under section 13-1104 or 13-1105, sexual conduct with a minor under section 13-1405, sexual assault under section 13-1406, child molestation under section 13-1410, armed robbery under section 13-1904 or aggravated assault under section 13-1204, subsection A, paragraphs 1 and 2. B. There is no duty to retreat before threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force justified by subsection A of this section. C. A person is presumed to be acting reasonably for the purposes of this section if the person is acting to prevent what the person reasonably believes is the imminent or actual commission of any of the offenses listed in subsection A of this section. D. This section includes the use or threatened use of physical force or deadly physical force in a person's home, residence, place of business, land the person owns or leases, conveyance of any kind, or any other place in this state where a person has a right to be. |
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You should have shot him dead where he stood when he told you mind you own fucking business. I'm gonna go with 'no' on this. Well, you and I disagree on this one. If a kid is screaming bloody murder and being dragged off, I would do whatever is necessary to stop the guy dragging the kid off. If necessary, I would put a gun in his face. If he persisted in his actions and told me to mind my own fucking business, I would shoot him. Bang! In the face. Just. Like.That. And I'm pretty sure I would be justified in doing it. He's the one dictating which way the events will unfold. |
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I appreciate all the replies here. Especially this one.
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You know what I like about this post? You ARTICULATED everything, from the environment, the physical characteristics of the child and adult, their behavior, your considerations, etc. You wrote a better description of what was going on and what was going though your mind than 90% of the reports I read at work authored by fellow cops. First off, you obviously had a lot going through your head. You considered all the angles. My hat's off to you. You did good. Sounds like you were prepared to take more aggressive action if you needed to, but you did just the right amount in my opinion. I'm glad the female neighbor also came out, in case this guy is a douche bag. That way he's less likely to target you for calling the cops, as he obviously raised enough ruckus to alert more than one neighbor. What city are you in? Thanks for that! Seriously, it really means something when it comes from a police officer. I'm in Chandler. |
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Quoted: You better hope the jury finds that an acceptable reason to shoot a father who wasn't breaking a law. The jury doesn't always vote with the LETTER of the law.Quoted: Quoted: You should have shot him dead where he stood when he told you mind you own fucking business. I'm gonna go with 'no' on this. Well, you and I disagree on this one. If a kid is screaming bloody murder and being dragged off, I would do whatever is necessary to stop the guy dragging the kid off. If necessary, I would put a gun in his face. If he persisted in his actions and told me to mind my own fucking business, I would shoot him. Bang! In the face. Just. Like.That. And I'm pretty sure I would be justified in doing it. He's the one dictating which way the events will unfold. |
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You better hope the jury finds that an acceptable reason to shoot a father who wasn't breaking a law. The jury doesn't always vote with the LETTER of the law.
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You should have shot him dead where he stood when he told you mind you own fucking business. I'm gonna go with 'no' on this. Well, you and I disagree on this one. If a kid is screaming bloody murder and being dragged off, I would do whatever is necessary to stop the guy dragging the kid off. If necessary, I would put a gun in his face. If he persisted in his actions and told me to mind my own fucking business, I would shoot him. Bang! In the face. Just. Like.That. And I'm pretty sure I would be justified in doing it. He's the one dictating which way the events will unfold. If the guy is her father, he damn well better say so. "Mind you own fucking business" is not the thing to say to someone in that situation. I'd give him the opportunity to lay down until the cops got there. But if he continued on doing what he was doing, I'd have shot him if necessary to stop him from leaving. I'd rather be tried for shooting him than be a witness at some other trial discribing how I let the guy go after they find a little girl's sexually abused body in a dumpster. |
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If the guy is her father, he damn well better say so. "Mind you own fucking business" is not the thing to say to someone in that situation. I'd give him the opportunity to lay down until the cops got there. But if he continued on doing what he was doing, I'd have shot him if necessary to stop him from leaving. I'd rather be tried for shooting him than be a witness at some other trial discribing how I let the guy go after they find a little girl's sexually abused body in a dumpster. Consider this: I am at my wit's end for whatever reason - work stress, monthy cycle, Obama re-elected - and my little girl is being a brat. She runs out of the house and I run out after her, and as I grab her she starts screaming. You come out of your house to see what the ruckus is, and you see what you think may be a crime in progress. You ask me what's going on, and I (at my wit's end) tell you to MYOFB. You pull a weapon on me, and now I WILL KILL YOU - and I will be totally justified in doing it; moreso, in fact, than you would be in trying to stop whatever crime you thought was happening. You would not "give me the opportunity to lay down until the cops got there" because I would be so busy dumping a magazine into your vital organs that I wouldn't have time to lay down. I'm not saying to turn a blind eye to crime or to be the jerk who says "I don't meddle in the affairs of others" as a girl gets raped in an alley. I respect your willingness to act, especially since I think it is lacking so heavily these days. But I wouldn't want to see you get yourself into trouble, even with the best of intentions. You mentioned that you are "pretty sure" you would be justified in doing it - well you better be most readily 100% pretty damn sure, or else your life just turned into Hell, especially if you shot a father who was breaking no laws - you would go to prison for 2nd degree murder, plain and simple. It's not just about being tried, it's about being convicted, and trust me - you would be convicted of murder for walking up to a guy and shooting him in the face because he didn't do what you wanted him to. You'd better be pretty damn sure that the crime you think is going down is actually going down, or else you could not only become part of a crime yourself, but may find yourself 6 feet under. You have no idea the capabilities of those who you decide to draw your weapon on, and if they aren't actually committing a crime and are just living their life, they will feel threatened and may fight back like a cornered lion - not something you want to be on the receiving end of. And if they do fight back, their legal rights will smash your legal rights to tiny little bits that will then be smashed to smaller bits by the cops, the jury, and your fellow inmates. OuTkAsT did a fairly good job here - he was an excellent witness and was able to very effectively articulate what happened. By his description of the incident I was able to draw a complete mental picture of the entire scene, which is something that you can't do with most eyewitness reports. The only thing I may have done differently is to have followed the guy (from a distance) to see exactly where he went - there's nothing illegal about that, and if it all turns out to be innocent, I haven't broken any laws. If it turns out to be foul play, now I know where everyone is and I can potentially do something about it, or at the very least give LEO more information. Having to run back into the house to put clothes on, by the way, is why I never walk out of my house, even onto the patio, without appropriate clothing, footwear of some kind, and a self-defense tool. You just don't know what can happen or when, so I am always ready. |
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If the guy is her father, he damn well better say so. "Mind you own fucking business" is not the thing to say to someone in that situation. I'd give him the opportunity to lay down until the cops got there. But if he continued on doing what he was doing, I'd have shot him if necessary to stop him from leaving. I'd rather be tried for shooting him than be a witness at some other trial discribing how I let the guy go after they find a little girl's sexually abused body in a dumpster. Consider this: I am at my wit's end for whatever reason - work stress, monthy cycle, Obama re-elected - and my little girl is being a brat. She runs out of the house and I run out after her, and as I grab her she starts screaming. You come out of your house to see what the ruckus is, and you see what you think may be a crime in progress. You ask me what's going on, and I (at my wit's end) tell you to MYOFB. You pull a weapon on me, and now I WILL KILL YOU - and I will be totally justified in doing it; moreso, in fact, than you would be in trying to stop whatever crime you thought was happening. You would not "give me the opportunity to lay down until the cops got there" because I would be so busy dumping a magazine into your vital organs that I wouldn't have time to lay down. I'm not saying to turn a blind eye to crime or to be the jerk who says "I don't meddle in the affairs of others" as a girl gets raped in an alley. I respect your willingness to act, especially since I think it is lacking so heavily these days. But I wouldn't want to see you get yourself into trouble, even with the best of intentions. You mentioned that you are "pretty sure" you would be justified in doing it - well you better be most readily 100% pretty damn sure, or else your life just turned into Hell, especially if you shot a father who was breaking no laws - you would go to prison for 2nd degree murder, plain and simple. It's not just about being tried, it's about being convicted, and trust me - you would be convicted of murder for walking up to a guy and shooting him in the face because he didn't do what you wanted him to. You'd better be pretty damn sure that the crime you think is going down is actually going down, or else you could not only become part of a crime yourself, but may find yourself 6 feet under. You have no idea the capabilities of those who you decide to draw your weapon on, and if they aren't actually committing a crime and are just living their life, they will feel threatened and may fight back like a cornered lion - not something you want to be on the receiving end of. And if they do fight back, their legal rights will smash your legal rights to tiny little bits that will then be smashed to smaller bits by the cops, the jury, and your fellow inmates. OuTkAsT did a fairly good job here - he was an excellent witness and was able to very effectively articulate what happened. By his description of the incident I was able to draw a complete mental picture of the entire scene, which is something that you can't do with most eyewitness reports. The only thing I may have done differently is to have followed the guy (from a distance) to see exactly where he went - there's nothing illegal about that, and if it all turns out to be innocent, I haven't broken any laws. If it turns out to be foul play, now I know where everyone is and I can potentially do something about it, or at the very least give LEO more information. Having to run back into the house to put clothes on, by the way, is why I never walk out of my house, even onto the patio, without appropriate clothing, footwear of some kind, and a self-defense tool. You just don't know what can happen or when, so I am always ready. Please understand, I am not denigrating Outcast's actions. But, and I agree it’s a big but, according to the ARS, when “a person reasonably believes” he sees this going on, and intervenes then is told to eff-off as the guy goes on his way, it going to be an ugly situation. There better be some explanation or “the reasonably believes” part is inserted right in the middle of the situation. A person is justified in threatening or using both physical force and deadly physical force against another if and to the extent the person reasonably believes that physical force or deadly physical force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's commission of kidnapping under section 13-1304. A person is presumed to be acting reasonably for the purposes of this section if the person is acting to prevent what the person reasonably believes is the imminent or actual commission of any of the offenses listed in subsection A of this section. I don't know that anyone can be 100% sure. Harold Fish was 100% sure and he got railroaded into prison. I may have sounded like I would just run out there and blast the guy in the face, but I didn’t have that in my mind’s eye when I was writing. Give the guy a chance to explain the situation and get a big FU? Sorry, but I’m putting a gun in his face and ordering him to the ground. If he empties a mag into me during this encounter, I will do my best to kill him back. There is no way I am letting a guy dragging a screaming kid leave my view. It’s not going to happen until everyone knows what is going on. If that guy doesn’t understand the gravity of someone intervening in what appears to be an abduction and, well…he’s having more than a bad day. He sounds like he’s mentally unbalanced. Although he may not be breaking the law, he is giving the appearance of committing a felony against a helpless child, and until he explains his actions as benign, a “person reasonably believes” he is committing a crime and would be empowered to act accordingly. If that means threatening or using lethal force, so be it. Maybe I should set up a defense fund now. It's going to be a hellava trial. |
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Larry, I also commend you on your determination to do right by a child in this type of situation, but if you're unsure of a situation, putting your firearm in the dude's face it probably isn't the best course of action. Prepared to put it in his face if you need to? Sure. But I think Rizzi's approach of following the pair and communicating your observations to the police are the way to go here.
I also think that while it escalates the situation and is incredibly rude for a stranger to yell "MYOFB!", it doesn't mean a felony or child abduction or whatever is actually taking place. Interesting thread and good job Outkast. Don't second guess yourself. |
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A person is justified in threatening or using both physical force and deadly physical force against another if and to the extent the person reasonably believes that physical force or deadly physical force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's commission of kidnapping under section 13-1304. A person is presumed to be acting reasonably for the purposes of this section if the person is acting to prevent what the person reasonably believes is the imminent or actual commission of any of the offenses listed in subsection A of this section. Yes, legally you would be in the right - but we knew that already. Again, I'm not saying that your proposed actions would be unjust or illegal, just not very conducive to a long and happy life. And you can be 100% sure on some things - if someone points a gun at me I am 100% sure. If someone is trying to abduct my child I am 100% sure. If someone kicks in my front door I am 100% sure. If someone is raping a child I am 100% sure. But because crime prevention can be filled with so many gray areas, 100% sure is something I won't always have the luxury of, which is why most of the time I won't get involved. Ever been in a store parking lot and see a kid kicking and screaming while an adult tries to force them into the car? Could you "reasonably believe" that they are being kidnapped? Sure, but that's just their parent trying to get them into the car and the kid is pitching a fit because they want the newest toy, and if someone comes up and asks what's going on they are likely to get a MYOFB. If at that point they "reasonably believe" a kidnapping is taking place, and pull a gun, then the parent will most likely "reasonably believe" that they are being robbed or worse, and will fight back. Now you have bullets flying, maybe in two directions, when a fight wasn't even needed in the first place. A note of the license plate, descriptions of everyone involved, maybe even "accidentally" blocking their exit while the cops roll in are great ways to effect crime without pulling your gun and going to lethal force. Again, I don't go to guns - which is a decision that will affect the rest of my life and my family's lives - unless I am 100% sure, which, as I already said, can be a damn tough thing to be. There are just so many scenarios, both real and hypothetical, that I could give examples of here, but you already get the idea, I'm sure. Yes, in your previous posts you most definitely sounded like you would just shoot this guy based on the crime prevention laws. Giving the guy a chance to explain is certainly a much better choice, but even then, to what end does another citizen have to explain their actions to you? Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate here, but seriously - I can do what I want when I want as long as I don't break any laws or hurt anyone, and I am under no obligation to explain anything to anyone. Someone asks me what I'm doing? None of your business could very easily be my answer, and they have no legal recourse at all to make me say anything else (unless they are a cop). They don't like my answer, so they pull a gun? Assuming that I don't fight back, what we have at a minimum here is brandishing, with a more likely charge of aggravated assault, and maybe even reckless endangerment or a few other fun ones. Remember, you can "reasonably believe" all you want, but will 12 of your 'peers' (and I type that as sarcastically as possible) "reasonably believe" that you needed to smoke a guy because his kid was being a brat? Again, I'm not saying don't get involved. But be ready for the shitstorm that could rain down on your life if you escalate the situation beyond the level that it needed to be escalated to. I remember seeing a video once, and I can't find it now, of a van in a mall parking lot just circling the rows. Suddenly it stops, a man leaps out, grabs a young girl and drags her kicking and screaming into the van before the door shuts and they speed away. It looked like a textbook abduction . . . . but it was actually some parents who had finally located their runaway teen and were taking her to a rehab clinic. I'm sure that father did not have the time or the inclination to explain to anyone what he was doing or why he was doing it, and while a bystander could have "reasonably believed" until the end of time, it still wouldn't have made them right. And yes, if you own or carry a firearm for self-defense, you should already have a defense fund. Not because I think you will get into trouble, but because the legal system is a wreck to navigate on your own, and you need someone who can read the maps properly to defend you if your life one day depends on it. Look into something like the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network, or even just getting a good lawyer on retainer. |
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You should have shot him dead where he stood when he told you mind you own fucking business. I'm gonna go with 'no' on this. Well, you and I disagree on this one. If a kid is screaming bloody murder and being dragged off, I would do whatever is necessary to stop the guy dragging the kid off. If necessary, I would put a gun in his face. If he persisted in his actions and told me to mind my own fucking business, I would shoot him. Bang! In the face. Just. Like.That. And I'm pretty sure I would be justified in doing it. He's the one dictating which way the events will unfold. I hope you never go to any Wal-Marts or Toy-R-Us between now and Christmas, or there will be a whole bunch of unlucky parents that are shot dead by you while they are trying to get their kid out of the toy department. |
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You better hope the jury finds that an acceptable reason to shoot a father who wasn't breaking a law. The jury doesn't always vote with the LETTER of the law.
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You should have shot him dead where he stood when he told you mind you own fucking business. I'm gonna go with 'no' on this. Well, you and I disagree on this one. If a kid is screaming bloody murder and being dragged off, I would do whatever is necessary to stop the guy dragging the kid off. If necessary, I would put a gun in his face. If he persisted in his actions and told me to mind my own fucking business, I would shoot him. Bang! In the face. Just. Like.That. And I'm pretty sure I would be justified in doing it. He's the one dictating which way the events will unfold. If the guy is her father, he damn well better say so. "Mind you own fucking business" is not the thing to say to someone in that situation. I'd give him the opportunity to lay down until the cops got there. But if he continued on doing what he was doing, I'd have shot him if necessary to stop him from leaving. I'd rather be tried for shooting him than be a witness at some other trial discribing how I let the guy go after they find a little girl's sexually abused body in a dumpster. I wonder if you were the father that is the middle of a yelling match with your little kid because he doesn't want to eat his vegetables, the kid runs out of the house screaming and yelling making a scene like kids tend to do over nothing. And while you are frustrated, tired, and embarrassed fighting with your little kid in the apartment parking lot some stranger starts yelling at you about what is going on. Do you think you would just kindly explain the situation before going on to continue to coral your kid? And if you didn't explain yourself to the stranger's satisfaction would you understand if he shot you for it? |