Posted: 7/12/2010 9:58:47 AM EDT
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eta: I have been beat to this
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1064739&page=1� All right...which one of you is this? http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/mesa/atf-gun-raid-07122010 * Video * Photo gun-raid-9am071210 Regular Photo Size 1,000 Firearms Removed from Mesa Home Updated: Monday, 12 Jul 2010, 10:48 AM MDT Published : Monday, 12 Jul 2010, 10:46 AM MDT MESA, Ariz. - Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms agents conducted a search warrant at a Mesa home near Loop 202 and McDowell for violations of federal firearms laws. ATF's Tom Mangan alleges that a person involved was dealing guns without a license. About 1,000 firearms were removed from the home. FOX 10's Tom Fergus reports from SkyFOX. |
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http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/ATF-agents-find-weapons-cache-at-Mesa-home-98246574.html Looks like this guy will be facing many moons in a federal pen. Not smart. |
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In the first photo there seems to be a side by side shotty with barrels and buttstock sawed off. I'm no expert but isn't that also a violation? Not necessarily, you can own a sawed-off shotgun so long as it is registered as an SBS (NFA regulated firearm), although given the situation, I have no doubt its unregistered and therefore illegal. |
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The 'journalistic' report said he wasn't arrested, but the video shows his property being seized. Maybe that should be the real story. Thats the ATF's sop 
How many private transfers can you make before you're a 'dealer'? It appears this guy was a licensed dealer, but let his license lapse and didn't bother to renew. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The 'journalistic' report said he wasn't arrested, but the video shows his property being seized. Maybe that should be the real story. Thats the ATF's sop How many private transfers can you make before you're a 'dealer'? It appears this guy was a licensed dealer, but let his license lapse and didn't bother to renew. The penalty for something like that should be a fine of a couple of hundred bucks and having to renew the license. I'm guessing what he will get some jail or prison time eventually, will lose all his guns, will lose his gun rights and will probably also face a large fine. Not to mention thousands in lawyers fees. Absurd if you ask me. |
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The penalty for something like that should be a fine of a couple of hundred bucks and having to renew the license. I'm guessing what he will get some jail or prison time eventually, will lose all his guns, will lose his gun rights and will probably also face a large fine. Not to mention thousands in lawyers fees. Absurd if you ask me. I suppose it depends on the situation. Honest mistake? Absolutely. Thumbing his nose at the Feds? Bad move. Once you sign on the line, you gotta play by the rules, even if you don't like them. Looking at the guys website, it seems he was primarily C&R. He might have been selling other stuff too, but his business was "Cowboy" type guns. |
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The penalty for something like that should be a fine of a couple of hundred bucks and having to renew the license. I'm guessing what he will get some jail or prison time eventually, will lose all his guns, will lose his gun rights and will probably also face a large fine. Not to mention thousands in lawyers fees. Absurd if you ask me. I suppose it depends on the situation. Honest mistake? Absolutely. Thumbing his nose at the Feds? Bad move. Once you sign on the line, you gotta play by the rules, even if you don't like them. Looking at the guys website, it seems he was primarily C&R. He might have been selling other stuff too, but his business was "Cowboy" type guns. What dotted line did he sign? He's no longer a dealer. He was selling used guns. How many guns can you sell before you must have a license? I sold an AR last week....do I need a license if I sell another one?!?!? |
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What dotted line did he sign? He's no longer a dealer. He was selling used guns. How many guns can you sell before you must have a license? I sold an AR last week....do I need a license if I sell another one?!?!? Come on, you really want to have an argument that this guy wasn't a dealer? He knew what the rules were and he decided to break them. Personally, I'm perfectly OK with that. But you gotta know there's a chance you're gonna get snagged. Check out his web store. Then come back and tell me he's not a "dealer" in firearms in legal terms. http://www.buffalobrothers.net/ |
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Once you sign on the line, you gotta play by the rules, even if you don't like them. I am NOT defending this guy, but I have some experience with these matters and I have come to NOT believe anything the "News" or the BATF put out as I know for a fact they are not required to be accurate or honest. They aren't "Rules", they are "Regulations" and "Guidelines". In most cases, they are very vague and rely on interpretation from the BATF (who have a bad habit of changing their minds or giving conflicting answers). As the reg's read (and precedent set by the Shiply case) if you sell ONE GUN for more then you paid for it, you are "conducting business" and should be a dealer. Also from the Shiply case, even if you do your sales through an FFL, you are still conducting business and need to have your own FFL... Bottom line, you need to either sell your gun TO an FFL or put it on consignment with an FFL to be 100% in the clear. |
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In the first photo there seems to be a side by side shotty with barrels and buttstock sawed off. I'm no expert but isn't that also a violation? He be in trouble. perfectly legal and not NFA if it's a muzzle loader. it looks to have hammers on it, not sure if I can see nipples on the back of the barrels. |
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Once you sign on the line, you gotta play by the rules, even if you don't like them. I am NOT defending this guy, but I have some experience with these matters and I have come to NOT believe anything the "News" or the BATF put out as I know for a fact they are not required to be accurate or honest. They aren't "Rules", they are "Regulations" and "Guidelines". In most cases, they are very vague and rely on interpretation from the BATF (who have a bad habit of changing their minds or giving conflicting answers). As the reg's read (and precedent set by the Shiply case) if you sell ONE GUN for more then you paid for it, you are "conducting business" and should be a dealer. Also from the Shiply case, even if you do your sales through an FFL, you are still conducting business and need to have your own FFL... Bottom line, you need to either sell your gun TO an FFL or put it on consignment with an FFL to be 100% in the clear. I hear you. I was using the term "rules" loosely. The BATFE can go fuck themselves, I'll say it for you  . I don't like them at all. But I still dutifully send off my paperwork and comply with the "rules" on my NFA stuff. I could easily make an SBR or an MG, or whatever and not do the paperwork. If I do, I know what the penalties are. In other words, morally, I don't think this guy should be in any trouble at all. But seriously, look at his website. There's no way this guy can claim he didn't know what he was doing. He wasn't selling stuff for "recreation" or to help out friends. If he didn't have an FFL (he did in the past) he had to know there was a chance this could happen.
Also, I'm not familiar with Shiply. Do you know any place I can read about it? |
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I live one city over and never heard of this...
However the ATF is apparently making their rounds in Arizona right now with fury from what I have heard... We are an FFL here and we make sure our books are 100% because it is NEVER worth the risk to go against the ATF... They will ALWAYS win and everyone else will lose! Kind of scary! |