Posted: 4/10/2010 3:22:40 PM EDT
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http://www.desertdefender.com/2010/04/throws-constitution-under-bus/ As you may know, the Arizona State Legislature has passed a bill that allows people in Arizona to carry a concealed weapon with out a permit. This bill is now sitting on the governor’s desk and will likely be signed in the coming week. If you have been following the progression of this bill, you would have seen that this has quite a few folk scared. There have been comments about our state returning to the “Wild West”, and others comment about blood running in the streets. There has been the normal “but what about the children!?” arguments as well. But, there is one thing that I never thought I’d see, and that is people in the gun industry, speaking out against the bill. You may recall a post here about the Insight Firearms Training School, and their campaign to get no votes on Constitutional Carry. Now it seems that The Marksman Pistol Institute is following in similar suit. From an article talking about carrying on college campuses and the Constitutional Carry bill: Universities and community colleges do not like the idea of a faculty member, with very little training being put in a dangerous position. Plus, they warn of the danger for police. “And the last thing they need to do is come through the door and not know who the bad guy is,” says UA Police Chief Anthony Daykin. Daykin testified against the bill before an Arizona Senate Subcommittee Wednesday. “We’re not against people carrying their weapons. We’re not against CCW (concealed carry weapons ). We’re not anti Second Amendment. We are pro safety,” Daykin says. But there are people who think faculty carrying concealed weapons in classrooms is a good idea. “Why should it be just professors? Why not everyone out there who has the right under the state constitution and federal constitution to carry a firearm,” says Marksman Pistol Institute Chief Instructor Jim Stover. But, Stover has a major concern. “I’d like to see at least 40 hours of training,” he says.Right now Arizona’s concealed weapons training requirement is only eight hours. Both Stover and Daykin say that’s not nearly enough.Both are worried Arizona may lose even that requirement under another bill going through the legislature. The bill would not require any training at all to get a concealed weapons permit. “That’s going a bit too far, in my book,” says Stover.“Somehow there is an expectation by sponsors of bills and supporters of these bills that those people are now somehow magically capable of defending themselves and others in a very critical situation,” says Daykin.But people were magically capable of doing it as long as the weapon was worn in plain sight? I think you are going a bit to far, Mr. Stover. Now I agree that training is vital, but the way our laws are written is asinine. As long as I can pass the NICS check, I can go out and by a pistol legally. I can wear that same pistol on my hip in plain sight with no training requirement – but if that pistol becomes covered up by my shirt or a jacket, all the sudden I need training? Why weren’t you pushing for training, regardless of carry method? Now in another article that was just published yesterday, Mr. Stover has more to say: State lawmakers have passed a new gun bill that could soon allow you to carry a hidden gun without a concealed weapons permit. But not all gun rights advocates support this gun rights law. Jim Stover says, “would I say to a police officer here’s your badge here’s your gun go out and defend my life without any training, absolutely not.” Under the new gun law, gun owners would no longer have to complete |
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Quoted: It's all about the $$$  Yup.... Anybody that's been to a CCW class can probably relate stories of seeing supremely unqualified people passing their range qualification after 10 or 12 attempts  Whether it's 8 hours or 40 hours of classroom instruction isn't going to matter a hill of beans whether someone can draw and fire their weapon effectively under stress. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
It's all about the $$$ Yup.... Anybody that's been to a CCW class can probably relate stories of seeing supremely unqualified people passing their range qualification after 10 or 12 attempts
Whether it's 8 hours or 40 hours of classroom instruction isn't going to matter a hill of beans whether someone can draw and fire their weapon effectively under stress. BINGO! |
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I disagree to some extent. I also teach CCW classes, but only to military folks who want to carry in S/Az or a few teachers. I absolutely support open carry and concealed carry. Yes, I've assisted in others CCW classes that I would worry if a very few would have to use a firearm.
I had s short conversation today with a Cochise County Superior Court judge who happens to be a Republican and I am supporting him for reelection. I think we have several issues here. The first and most important is the right to bear arms which is guaranteed in the AZ Constitution. (We are talking about a State Law here) The AZ Constitution is very clear on that issue. This law appropriately follows the common sense of that document. Next is the right to use a firearm in self defense and here is where there is some concern. The right to self defense is absolute, but so is the right to be safe from irresponsible action. Irresponsible action can be dangerous with any object, car, tire iron, knife, and firearm. Firearms share with automobiles the instantaneous tragedy of poor judgement or accident. Requiring a license makes the State the judge of use, no license makes the individual the judge of use. As a former H S coach there are 21 year olds I don't want to see using either on until there is some maturity in their thought. However I also don't want a competent person who chooses to have open carry go to jail because they (she) was carrying and put a jacket on which covered a legal firearm and would have put her in a dangerous situation if they (she) had to take it off to be legal. (As I understand it this law came from the arrest of a female ranch type person who donned a jacket.) My judge friend and I spoke of the un-intended consequences of this arrest which led to appropriate anger of Arizona folks who need to carry in dangerous areas but who chose to use the Open Carry law. So here is what we must do. As responsible firearms folks we should encourage our friends who intend to carry to get instruction, most of us can give it. We must have tie individual courage to turn in those violating the law like shooting at stop signs, etc. Policing our own ranks is the key to a successful and well thought out law. |
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Quoted: The right to self defense is absolute, but so is the right to be safe from irresponsible action. No, it most certainly is not. There is no guarantee anywhere of being safe from irresponsible action, not your own or anyone elses. What there is are penalties against irresponsible action. What you're suggesting is "pre-crime" and it's a fallacy and is one of the most wrong headed things I've ever heard in my life. |
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Sorry, but we do have a right to expect responsible behavior from folks, freedom from fear includes that, however to be prosecuted it must be defined. It is defined in the case of automobiles and now there will be lawsuits and subsequent court decisions that define our new gun regulations.
In this law there will be consequences we expect and unintended consequences we didn't. |
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The practical effect of this law won't be much. There won't suddenly be vast numbers of unqualified people carrying guns. People who already want to carry for the most part do in one way or another. Most people with CCWs only carry in their vehicles the majority of the time; which was also previously legal as long as it was in a holster without a CCW. Aside from people who are self employed (no corporate policies against it), work in the gun biz, or are LE; I really don't know many people who carry concealed on a daily basis on their person; they just leave it in their car.
The CCW class as is was just a legal hoop to jump through for people to legally be able to carry guns. It really only prevented those who were too poor, or too lazy from being able to carry concealed legally. A person can get the same information reading Alan Korwin's AZ Gun Owners Guide as they will in a CCW class. The class in no way prepares someone to actually be in a deadly force encounter; its more about staying out of trouble. It is interesting that most of these opponents do not recognize that anyone could carry without a permit as long as it was open before; none of them ever argued for banning that. The new law is a good thing because it eliminates arbitrary prosecution for people who happen to have their shirt come untucked, a jacket cover it. It also eliminates economic class disparity on the ability to defend oneself. Now that anyone can carry without a CCW in Arizona; I would be against lowering the requirements to get a CCW even further as it would jepordize reciprocity with other states; which is the main reason I want to keep a permit either way. If there was a CCW level 2 or the requirements were higher to allow reciprocity with more states I don't think that would be a bad idea at this point; no ones rights would be infringed upon. |
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Quoted:
The practical effect of this law won't be much. There won't suddenly be vast numbers of unqualified people carrying guns. People who already want to carry for the most part do in one way or another. Most people with CCWs only carry in their vehicles the majority of the time; which was also previously legal as long as it was in a holster without a CCW. Aside from people who are self employed (no corporate policies against it), work in the gun biz, or are LE; I really don't know many people who carry concealed on a daily basis on their person; they just leave it in their car. The CCW class as is was just a legal hoop to jump through for people to legally be able to carry guns. It really only prevented those who were too poor, or too lazy from being able to carry concealed legally. A person can get the same information reading Alan Korwin's AZ Gun Owners Guide as they will in a CCW class. The class in no way prepares someone to actually be in a deadly force encounter; its more about staying out of trouble. It is interesting that most of these opponents do not recognize that anyone could carry without a permit as long as it was open before; none of them ever argued for banning that. The new law is a good thing because it eliminates arbitrary prosecution for people who happen to have their shirt come untucked, a jacket cover it. It also eliminates economic class disparity on the ability to defend oneself. Now that anyone can carry without a CCW in Arizona; I would be against lowering the requirements to get a CCW even further as it would jepordize reciprocity with other states; which is the main reason I want to keep a permit either way. If there was a CCW level 2 or the requirements were higher to allow reciprocity with more states I don't think that would be a bad idea at this point; no ones rights would be infringed upon. The voice of reason - Thanks! |
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Sinister r.
Interesting comments and I agree. My shock this morning is that I have three additional folks who want to take my class so they can be able to travel to states that recognize the AZ cert. I'm also curious about the new course content as it looks as if instructors can have more input in their material. |
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Quoted:
Sinister r. I'm also curious about the new course content as it looks as if instructors can have more input in their material. The new guidelines will give instructors a lot more freedom over their course, which I think is a good thing. I also think Sinestral is right, and that lowering the training requirements will likely loose us one or two states wrt reciprocity. I remember the old 16 hr class and how bad it was, lots and lots of "filler" to meet the time requirements. We got to watch a video from Martin Fackler on wound balistics and another on the Norht Hollywood shootout. While these were interesting, they are not really that relevant. I personally think the important info could be disseminated in a 4-hr class without any problems. |
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GunBurger.com and AR15.com member "CoolBeans" has scheduled a protest of the Marksman for this Saturday 4/17 from 9a-Noon.
RSVP here: http://www.facebook.com/pages/GunBurger-Tucson-AZ/111988752152122?v=app_2344061033&ref=mf Join us! |
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OPEN AND CONCEALED CARRY IN ALASKA AND VERMONT NO PERMITS REQUIRED.
NUMBER OF MURDERS IN 2008 ALASKA 28 VERMONT 17 IDAHO 23 MONTANA 23 ARIZONA 407 IDAHO AND MONTANA ALLOW CONCEALED CARRY WITH NO PERMIT OUTSIDE CITY LIMITS AND OPEN CARRY EVERYWHERE. THESE STATE HAVE LESS RESTRICTIVE GUN LAWS THAN ARIZONA AND HAVE MUCH LOWER MURDER RATE. |
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What other constitutional right requires training? Or, certification of the free exercise of the right?
Sure, you can't yell fire in a theater. Can you simply draw down in public with a CCW? No. There are already enough laws on the books to cover stupidity. Don't you find it ironic that the argument is on more laws and training when most of us have been fighting for the removal of government constraints, and to allow our freedom to guide us? So, now anyone that open carries can put a shirt over it. Really, how much more are you endangered? Really? They guy that carried without you knowing, already has been, no mater if they were an upstanding citizen or criminal. I have a CCW, but I never heard it better than from an individual that stated that he would never get on bended knees to ask for the right to defend himself, and so he never got a CCW. BALLS I say to him for his bravado. With this new law, he is allowed to be the same innocent citizen until proven guilty that he has been with his firearm for years. Like it or not, that is the price of freedom. Citizens and asshats have right until they have acted in a manner to remove them (convictions of crimes or wrongdoings that remove these rights). Like it or not, that SHOULD be the price of freedom, and to keep from being victimized you need to exercise vigilance. All this training crap is a red herring using the guise of public safety to foster dependency. We might as well return to dial 911 and die. Nice to see your post Sinistral, valid points and good stuff. |