Posted: 1/28/2008 10:20:34 AM EDT
So I call DPS today and they said my app was cleared today and my CCW permit will be printed and mailed out tomorrow!  Took about two and a half weeks. Almost didnt happen though...I took the class at Caswells but almost walked out of the class twice!  Instruction was excellent (can't recall his name right now but he has this thing for bunnies !) But it was just quite sobering the hell you can get into if you discharge your weapon in defense of yourself or others! Sorta like screwed if you do, screwed if you don't .Anyways, I have my P220R inbound as my carry and I will have to start training, training, training. 
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Damn..that's messed up!  I envision lots of range time, keeping current on related legislative issues and hunting for affordable defensive handgun classes!
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Let me first say that it had nothing to do with the instruction. It was top notch. The instructor just brought some hard realities to me. Things I never thought of. Like giving us the name of an attorney to call if you ever were involved in a shooting .He informed us of the multitude of ways (using real-life examples) that a law-abiding citizen can get in trouble with the law (intentionally and unintentionally) regarding concealed carry. I was flabbergasted and quite frankly started to think was the possible legal woes really worth it. Would I be able to use deadly force if the moment arose, without freezing and worrying about any legal ramifications? Well being a former marine, I decided that training would protect me from any possible legal trouble. |
In a justified shooting the choices are shoot the SOB or be severely injured/killed. Given that choice the legal ramifications should not even enter your mind. Yes there may be a lot of post shooting legal BS but that is a lot better than being dead. This is also why many instructors reccomend not drawing your gun if you are a bystander during a crime even though you may be legally justified to use deadly force. It is often not worth the aftermath to use deadly force if your life is not in danger. I know that rubs most of us the wrong way but unfortunately that is the shitty world we live in. We are not LEOs and will not have the legal protection that comes with their job. Welcome to the club, now go and shoot that pistol! |
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. |
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The CCW permit system is intended to reduce the number of people who can carry guns legally. The classes themselves are intended to scare people out of using firearms in self-defense. Keep those things in mind when you're taking these classes, the mindset too many people walk away with may make them hesitate or not act when they should. |
I had never actually considered that before....interesting point!!! |
That it did! Yes sir indeed! |
not trying to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but having friends in all different types of local and fed govt jobs, the reality is that a lot of programs that are suppose to help the public in general just create more hoops and make set choices by default, not what a person puts on paper - it is then the individual's job to fix the error that was artificially created by the agency, the sad reality is that a lot of people won't fix the problems and the govt gets more $$ for an "error" that was no error at all. sorry to get off topic... a friend went through a class i believe where you did and he said the same thing, but still glad he got it. lots of illusions around us.... |
When I took the CCW course at Gusite they gave what I considered to be a very good summary of the legal ramifications of using lethal force in a variety of circumstances. They clearly wanted us to know that a justified use of your weapon will still have potentially serious legal consequences and that each of us should think about when we would be willing to use a weapon. They mentioned that we should reflect on the fact that we are not LEOs and if we decide to intervene in a crime in commission there will be a price to pay. Considering that you could easily spend $100,000 or more on lawyers to defend yourself in both criminal and especially civil court for a justifiable shoot you damn better be afraid of the aftermath of even a "good shoot" Yes I agree it is better judged by 12 than carried by 6 but when ever possible retreat is your best option. In a truly "civilized" world we should not have to worry about the legal crap from defending ourselves but that is not the world we live in. |
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I couldnt agree more with what Rich is saying. I'm not about to get involved with the typical 7-eleven robbery. I'm not sure what the statistics are but I'm betting 99% of them result in the theif hurting no one and making out with a few hundred bucks. I know this is a case by case basis. You bet your ass the prosecutor will know these numbers and use them against you. Especially if it looks like you escalated the situation. I don't think im willing to get involved with anyone elses shit. Especially when that someone is insured i.e. banks. I intent to defent my life and the lives of my loved ones, as nothing is of greater importance to me Ok, maybe if the clerk had really big jugs, I'd step in
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This is where I am at. Unless I see that someone other than a family member is about to lose their life it is better for me to back off/observe/report and let the local LE take it from there. |
I want to thank you, in advance, on behalf of any/all women you may come across getting raped, brutalized, beaten and/or stabbed. I would recommend, however, that you at least carry a digital camera with you, so you can get good pictures of the man doing it and, thus, be the best observe/report witness you can be. Perhaps I (or some other gun-carrying citizen) can return the "be a great witness" favor for someone in your family, too. GRAPHIC - Man stabbing his ex-wife...citizens do nothing Watch this and tell me, that if this happened in the U.S., right in front of your nose, you would only stand there, so you could be a good witness. Yes, there is a time and place where NOT getting involved is the most prudent thing. Seeking out and trying to stop this kind of stuff might be such a situation. I would certainly hope that being right there, and watching someone get murdered, isn't one of those times. TimW Phoenix |
Tim, I believe Noshoot said that he would get involved if someone's life was in danger. Given the video you provided I would say that her life was in danger. Wouldn't you? Always nice for someone to reference an off the wall video that will most likely never happen in front of most of us and than say "Well I hope if this ever happens you'll do something" Jesus Christ man, of course we would or at lease I would in that situation, in this country. I think that Noshoot and myself are talking about the way more common "7-eleven" robbery than we are the brutal stabbing of a young woman 10 feet in front of us. It's also enjoyable to have people like yourself take something way out of context and say stuff like "Perhaps I (or some other gun-carrying citizen) can return the "be a great witness" favor for someone in your family, too" |
I saw that video and armed or not I would have intervened in that one. It gets a lot tougher in an armed robbery. Say your at the local mini mart buying whatever and some SOB comes in goes to the cashier with gun drawn and says "give me the money or I'll kill you". The clerk certainly has justification to shoot the SOB if they get the chance but what about you? Suppose at that point you pull your gun and shoot the SOB. Unfortunately he shoots the clerk in reaction to getting shot. Was this a justified shot on your part, probably, will you be prosecuted? Will the dead clerk's family sue you for wrongful death in civil court? Not a chance I'm willing to take. Now if he starts shooting then I'm going for my gun and if I get the shot I'll empty the mag into him. |
Rooftop and Rich It looks as if I did misread it, but given how Rooftop phrased his sentence, and Rich responded, it seemed that Rich was saying he wouldn't intervene unless it was a family member. My apologies for that. As I said, there are times when not getting involved is the right thing to do. Robberies easily could fall within that context...unless it appears apparent to me that more than just "give me your money" is about to occur. When that line is crossed, only you can say, and had better be able to explain why you did what you did. As for the "off the wall video" comment, well, think what you want. That's the same type of argument that's used by the other side to try and stop carry in the first place...the most recent regarding the CCW on Campus bill...("you'd have to be in the right place, and the right time, and even then, what chance do you have not to shoot and injure someone else...?). I wish they would tell that to all the dead Virgina Tech students, San Ysidro McDonald's patrons, Omaha mall victims, and all the other victims of similar instances, who I am certain never thought they'd be in "the right place at the right time." So to say that video is out-of-context and off-the-wall is just wrong. It CAN happen...any time, any place. Again, my apologies, Rich. |
I think you wanted to say this to Noshoot not me? |
As I said before-
Being former LE I know what my legal limitations are and I abide within them. Tim you are usually a pretty level headed dude. I am quite surprised that you were quick to fire off (and misread my post) like you did. |
I totally agree, things like that can and do happen all the time. I just think that scenario (video of woman getting stabbed) was not even close to what was referenced (a robbery scenario) I don't think its "off the wall" as it doesn't happen, just "off the wall" as relevant to the scenario I was talking about. |
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The above exchange just emphasizes the quandary and quagmire one may feel/encounter when a "situation" presented itself. I for one could never standby and watch someone suffer grievious bodily harm and/or death. The "better angels of my being" would force me to protect the weak. As for my family...my screen name pretty much dictates what my response would be! 
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The worst part of using deadly force in a situation like that is that YOU will be treated as a criminal by LEOs. |
So I get my CCW in the mail and no sooner than I get it I have to return it. They have me down as WHITE!
Arizona Citizen's Defense League keeps working on it. www.azcdl.org Surprisingly, we receive a lot of opposition from people within the firearms community and a lot of indifference at the idea too. |