[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Senate Bill 5/Issue 2 (Page 1 of 14)
Posted: 10/10/2011 2:52:30 AM EDT
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You voting for SB5 or against it? I got my absentee ballot in the mail today.
I am pretty sure I am voting for SB5 because I hate unions. |
| Voting NO on 2. Our salaries are already low and we can't attract the best people. Most of our recent hires were people who were out of work and just needed a job. This will punish people who did not cause the financial problems in the first place which is wrong. |
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I'm glad that this hasn't digressed into an argument yet. I'm leaning toward yes (to keep SB5), but as with most complicated issues I always like to try to understand the better arguments from people who are voting the other way before making a final deciscion. This is definitely one of those issues where good people can (and will) disagree. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Vote no. Police, firefighters and teachers didn't cause our financial problems and this bill won't solve them either. Vote Yes. Unions may not have caused these problems alone, but they are a part of the overall larger problem. The public unions get overly-generous (compared to the private sector) benefits (retirement/pensions and insurance) at the taxpayers expense. Many current contracts allow courts/arbiters to decide the increases, regardless of the municipalities ability to pay for those benefits. My wife is a teacher and yes, I dont want to see her salary cut. The reality however, is that if these contracts are not dealt with now, our taxes are going up and many municipalities will go bankrupt. Im not against great benefits, but I understand that fundamentally, we cannot keep promising better and better contracts (while not being able to pay for them) without ever having that day of reckoning. What if the NFL Played by Teachers' Rules? |
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I hate to be lumped in with big unions and Democrats but I will vote no because it will directly effect my pay. I understand your position, I really do. You'll forgive me for lumping you in with big unions and Democrats as part of the problem. Nobody wants to take a pay cut, but unless we get things under control we are ALL in for a BIG pay cut and a GIANT drop in our standard of living across the board. I don't expect anybody to vote to lower what they get from the government, and that is why I think we are ultimately doomed to suffer the same fate as Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. |
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Quoted: No on issue 2. If the unions fall the next in Line to take pay cuts are the none union workers. With out unions we would all be working in unsafe working environments bring home less money. This is an antiquated view and is no longer true by any stretch. I worked in 2 different union mills over a 14 year period and I currently work in a non-union mill. The non-union mill is way safer and the workers make just as much, if not more. They also can advance by ability and performance, not seniority. I have a close friend who owns a water blasting and vac truck service. His workers are non-union and make more money and have better benefits than their union counterparts at other blast and vac companies. It is the unions that drive out companies and keep companies out. Where did Hyundai build their first US plant? Not OH or MI or any other union infested rust belt state. Unions have outlived their usefulness by about 30 years. |
My counterparts in private industry are making $20,000 to $30,000 more than me per year. How much more do you want me to cut back on pay ? Maybe my health care co-pay and deductible should be better to compensate. We are already in a plan to pay more each year to cover health care costs. The City that pays me is not in any financial hardship at all BTW. 
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My counterparts in private industry are making $20,000 to $30,000 more than me per year. How much more do you want me to cut back on pay ? Maybe my health care co-pay and deductible should be better to compensate. We are already in a plan to pay more each year to cover health care costs. The City that pays me is not in any financial hardship at all BTW. If what you say is true, I'd be all for giving you a raise as long as your qualtiy of work and productivity are at least as good as the people you are comparing yourself with. What I am not for is for union people asking tax-payers to provide things for them that most of the private sector doesn't get and cannot afford. I am curious as to what type of job you do. If you are being paid less than you private-sector counterparts, you are obviously not in teaching. |
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My counterparts in private industry are making $20,000 to $30,000 more than me per year. How much more do you want me to cut back on pay ? Maybe my health care co-pay and deductible should be better to compensate. We are already in a plan to pay more each year to cover health care costs. The City that pays me is not in any financial hardship at all BTW. Have you considered a move to the private side if there is that much pay difference? |
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As much as some people refuse to accept reality, professional footbal is nothing more than a trivial game, run, like all private businesses, to make money. Public schools, poIice departments, and fire departments are not businesses, and with one exception, can't be run to make money. Who among you would want a profit driven police department, fire department, or school system? If a school board wants to make changes in the way teachers are hired, retained, or fired, they can certainly do that in the next contract. I will say that I am against teachers being able to strike. I am a cop, and I can't go on strike, neither can firefighters. Rightfully so. The biggest problem with public schools, especially in large cities, is not with teachers or administrators. It is with some students, but actually starts with parents who flat-out do not parent their children. The politicians who wrote SB5 specifically excluded themselves from the law. They even rigged the vote to get it out of committee by removing a republican who planned to vote against it. I can understand if there was a conflict of interest, like he had familiy members who were teachers, but he didn't. Clearly SB5 was planned before the election last year, but there was no mention of it. Why not? Kasich made more money than anyone affected by this bill while working to get public retirement funds to invest in Lehman Brothers. I've been told that he went to Police and Fire asking for even more money only 3 weeks before Lehman Brothers went belly-up. Shamefully, Kasich and a lot of republican legislators are acting like the stereotypical big money republicans who are out to help their rich friends, and setting themselves up for lobbying and consulting jobs after they leave public office. People think teachers make too much money for too little work, but they need to take a look at how much public money the polititians are getting for working about 100 days a year in some cases. I've read the state's biggest expeditures are entitlements. That's right, paying people to do nothing. Some of whom supplement their state money by leading a life of crime. If they want to change things, tie state money to work, much like happened with the WPA, CCC, and TVA during the depression. They could even have childcare, that would allow parents to work while putting more tax drains to work watching kids. They also need to include drug tests. Things can be changed, but SB5 is not the way to do it. Good luck figuring out merit pay for cops if citations, including arrests and traffic, can't be counted. If they are counted, stand by for tickets. Make sure you do some research before you vote. |
| Even if you aren't in a union SB5 will have a negative effect on you. Unions have set the bar of standards that EVERYBODY benefits from. This isn't about Republican or Democrat, it truly is an attack on the middle class. How about the upper class paying the same % of taxes that I do. If they need that money to create jobs then when are they going to do it? I've said this here before but if you want to see what this country will be like with no middle class then take a trip to Mexico. Mexico is a rich country they just have no middle class. We need a labor watch dog to even the playing field. We do need some serious changes but SB5 isn't the answer. |
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Yes on Issue 2 because it is way past time to start cutting back on excessive government benefits and bringing those people back in line with the rest of us who are paying their salaries. You might change your mind when a bunch of public employees lose their jobs and you have to start dodging AK bullets on the way to work. Government employees get great benefits, yes, but for the amount of work some of them do, it STILL isn't enough... I don't think so. I can and will shoot back. 
If you are talking about who "deserves" what, I don't know too many people in the private sector that couldn't make that same argument. It is about what is fair and what we can afford. It is very insulting to ask the taxpayer to pay for generous benefits for you when the average taxpayer doesn't get or can't afford those same benefits. |
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If you are talking about who "deserves" what, I don't know too many people in the private sector that couldn't make that same argument. It is about what is fair and what we can afford. It is very insulting to ask the taxpayer to pay for generous benefits for you when the average taxpayer doesn't get or can't afford those same benefits. There are a lot of people in the private sector who get better benefits than I do. Additionally, they work daylight hours and have weekends off, which I have had only during the six month academy portion of my 15 year law enforcement career. As a police officer, I am not the most likely to be killed (thanks, body armor) but I am most likely to be assaulted and most likely to be injured at work (those are two different categories). In all seriousness, I do enjoy the action, but this job wouldn't be worth the hassle without the benefits. The pay is good, but not great. 12 years ago, people thought I was an idiot because I had a tough job with terrible hours and only fair pay. In the fall of 2001, people respected us and firefighters, because they realize what we do and what we are willing to risk to do it. We have not changed, the spin from a few politicians has. |
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... The public unions get overly-generous (compared to the private sector) benefits (retirement/pensions and insurance) at the taxpayers expense. Many current contracts allow courts/arbiters to decide the increases, regardless of the municipalities ability to pay for those benefits. ... Absolutely 100% false. I am a public employee (state law enforcement). We do not get overly generous (compared to the private sector) benefits ... I pay 20% for my insurance and 12% of my salary into my pension (employer pays 8%). My health benefits are no better than average private sector and my retirement benefits are no better than a private pension would be given the contributions over my career. When an arbitrator (nuetral party) determines a fair wage increase, a large portion of their calculation is the employer's ability to pay. |
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The sad reality is the money isn't there. Cuts have to be made and these will not be the only ones that is for sure. If SB5 makes it so you no longer make enough to justify working in your job you may have to go out and join the private sector. Then who would teach our kids and protect our streets? Do you want that job to go to the lowest bidder? Maybe we can find some illegal immigrants to do it. |
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The sad reality is the money isn't there. ... If SB5 makes it so you no longer make enough to justify working in your job you may have to go out and join the private sector. If the money just isn't there why is the Moron governor behind this bill giving his staff large raises? And why did the legislators and governor exempt themselves from this bill so that they can take large raises in the future with approval from anyone but themselves? I don't think we really want a bunch of our police and fire leaving for the private sector ... that doesn't end well. |
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The sad reality is the money isn't there. Cuts have to be made and these will not be the only ones that is for sure. If SB5 makes it so you no longer make enough to justify working in your job you may have to go out and join the private sector. Then who would teach our kids and protect our streets? Do you want that job to go to the lowest bidder? Maybe we can find some illegal immigrants to do it. Our kids would go to private schools and they would be better educated for a lot less money than we are paying now and people would start to take care of themselves and one another. Passing Issue 2 actually SAVES union jobs. If issue 2 goes down, the low guys on the totem pole are going to get laid off. There is no more money. |
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... If issue 2 goes down, the low guys on the totem pole are going to get laid off. False. - Nice scare tactic though. Were you trainind by Kasich? Quoted: ... There is no more money.
When the public employee says "there is no more money" (to give a raise) and the bargaining goes to arbitration, the arbitrator (neutral party) will look at the employer's inablity to pay and award no raise ... that's how the current system for collective bargaining is set up. |
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Quoted: Do you want us to go bankrupt? There is not enough money. Things ARE going to be cut. I am not buying all the doom and gloom predictions. Quoted: The sad reality is the money isn't there. Cuts have to be made and these will not be the only ones that is for sure. If SB5 makes it so you no longer make enough to justify working in your job you may have to go out and join the private sector. Then who would teach our kids and protect our streets? Do you want that job to go to the lowest bidder? Maybe we can find some illegal immigrants to do it. Some how many people function just fine in their jobs without unions yet those of you in them seem like you could never do the same. There is nothing special about your jobs that they have to have unions representing them. |
| People who know nothing about collective bargaining should not present themselves as experts on "How the Unions are bringing down 'Merica". Just as Auglaze said, if a municipality truly has no money to pay employees or benefits, a neutral arbitrator is not going to give it away. Dont believe me? Look on the State Employees Relations Board website. Middle right about halfway down you can find arbitrators reports. Read that then come back |
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... There is nothing special about your jobs that they have to have unions representing them. Nothing special about police and fire? Hmmm ... Issue 2 is your chance to stand behind your police and fire ... Unless you feel like standing in front of them. |
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Do you want us to go bankrupt? There is not enough money. Things ARE going to be cut. I am not buying all the doom and gloom predictions.
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The sad reality is the money isn't there. Cuts have to be made and these will not be the only ones that is for sure. If SB5 makes it so you no longer make enough to justify working in your job you may have to go out and join the private sector. Then who would teach our kids and protect our streets? Do you want that job to go to the lowest bidder? Maybe we can find some illegal immigrants to do it. Some how many people function just fine in their jobs without unions yet those of you in them seem like you could never do the same. There is nothing special about your jobs that they have to have unions representing them. That is a bold statement seeing that you know nothing about me or what I do for a living. When you are able to splice high voltage cables while standing in a wet manhole or work on a 345kv transformer then you can tell me that there is nothing special about my job. |
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The sad reality is the money isn't there. Cuts have to be made and these will not be the only ones that is for sure. If SB5 makes it so you no longer make enough to justify working in your job you may have to go out and join the private sector. Then who would teach our kids and protect our streets? Do you want that job to go to the lowest bidder? Maybe we can find some illegal immigrants to do it. The house/apartment you live in was built by the lowest bidder. The airplane you fly in was built by the lowest bidder. The road you drive on was built by the lowest bidder. That system has been in place for a long time. It works. |
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The sad reality is the money isn't there. ... If SB5 makes it so you no longer make enough to justify working in your job you may have to go out and join the private sector. If the money just isn't there why is the Moron governor behind this bill giving his staff large raises? And why did the legislators and governor exempt themselves from this bill so that they can take large raises in the future with approval from anyone but themselves? I don't think we really want a bunch of our police and fire leaving for the private sector ... that doesn't end well. Source please? |
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Do you want us to go bankrupt? There is not enough money. Things ARE going to be cut. I am not buying all the doom and gloom predictions.
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The sad reality is the money isn't there. Cuts have to be made and these will not be the only ones that is for sure. If SB5 makes it so you no longer make enough to justify working in your job you may have to go out and join the private sector. Then who would teach our kids and protect our streets? Do you want that job to go to the lowest bidder? Maybe we can find some illegal immigrants to do it. Some how many people function just fine in their jobs without unions yet those of you in them seem like you could never do the same. There is nothing special about your jobs that they have to have unions representing them. That is a bold statement seeing that you know nothing about me or what I do for a living. When you are able to splice high voltage cables while standing in a wet manhole or work on a 345kv transformer then you can tell me that there is nothing special about my job. When you know how to balance a budget, run a business, create a job and make payroll at the end of the week you will better understand this issue. |
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Why are there so many Gov/Public jobs?
Why can't the school buses that pick up our children be done by the private sector? Why can't the city refuse pick up be done by the private sector? Can EMS / Fire / Police be moved into the private sector? The lowest bidder system works everywhere else. |
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... There is nothing special about your jobs that they have to have unions representing them. Nothing special about police and fire? Hmmm ... Issue 2 is your chance to stand behind your police and fire ... Unless you feel like standing in front of them. Typical, another union threat. |
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... There is nothing special about your jobs that they have to have unions representing them. Nothing special about police and fire? Hmmm ... Issue 2 is your chance to stand behind your police and fire ... Unless you feel like standing in front of them. Typical, another union threat. Topper aren't you the guy who loves Walmart? |
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Topper aren't you the guy who loves Walmart?
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... There is nothing special about your jobs that they have to have unions representing them. Nothing special about police and fire? Hmmm ... Issue 2 is your chance to stand behind your police and fire ... Unless you feel like standing in front of them. Typical, another union threat. Must not be, I have no idea what you are talking about. |