[ARCHIVED THREAD] - LEO Contact while shooting (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/2/2011 12:59:23 PM EDT
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I'm in San Diego and I'm just curious if anyone else has had any cops ask you what your shooting (them not having a clue).
I was approached in the desert by two sheriffs who really had no clue. One guy looks over my Mega built lower and clearly has no clue when I tell him its an off list lower. He tells me that he needs to radio someone to find out, I offer to let him read my copy of the DOJ and state 89 ban list that I carry, he declined like I was trying to show him up to his partner, weird. His partner looks at my AK 74 and says " nice sks " I tell him no its an AK and show him my mag release blocking plate and the mags I limited and riveted. In the end nothing was verified by them other than what I told them. This could have ended poorly because these guys didn't know much, I do structural steel inspection for a living and the contractors always say "show me" when there not following the code or standards or contract drawings. I HAVE TO PROVE IT FIRST. Cops not so much I guess ? Anybody else run into this... Am I special ? |
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I've been contacted by Forest Rangers likely half a dozen times with only one of any interest at all.
Myself and a friend were shooting out (WAY) east of San Diego of the 8 freeway at McClain (spelling) Valley where it had been legal to shoot. We were catching our brass, not shooting trash, and in all other ways "doing the right thing". A single ranger came up from behind us with gun drawn and held downwards in front of him. As he approached he asked us to set the pistols down and to step away from them. Once we were about 20 feet away he explained that the shooting area had been closed. We complained that there were no signs posted and we didn't know. Fine, cool, how ya' doing ... that was all the drama I've ever had. I think he was more concerned about his safety than anything being so far off-road. In other cases I've been camping and wearing a pistol or walking along a trail with a rifle. Zero concern from the officers at all. Completely professional in all cases. When I do bring my ARs out to play I'll bring them in a case with a zippered compartment. Inside there is the CalGun's flow chart and San Berdo's Sherrif (I think that's the county) training memo on ARs. Either could be a forged document but it at least gives us some regulation numbers to start a converstation. 
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| Twice by the Ramona Sherrif at Orosco ridge, before and after I had the BB. They were up there because of a fire on two different occasions. Same response each time, "I thought these were illegal?" Without saying too much I kindly replied, "No sir, if they were I wouldn't be out here." He ran my DL to make sure I wasn't wanted and checked for select fire. "Be safe, have nice day!" |
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Out in san diego east off the 8. I have been approached by both sheriff, and border patrol. Both of them looked at my truck (union and Laity fire stickers. All over) asked what we were shooting. I had my three iron targets set at 50,150,200... they picked up one if my ar and seemed pretty amazed by it. He didn't know what it was but they talked to us about how people don't respect the area.
After 20min. The saw I had everything straight and I had a rake to clean up. Gave me a "have a nice day" and went on his business. I think they don't mind us shooting as long as we seem like we belong there. Plus, im pretty sure they have slow days when we are there because im sure as hell no ones thinking of hopping that fence when they hear guns going off.. lmao |
LEOs not knowing the law is inexcusable.
LEOs who don't KNOW the LAW should either keep their mouths shut or LEARN about the Laws they are trying to enforce. That is like having a basketball referee call a foul on someone and then not know what the player did wrong! Of course the stakes during a LEO contacts are FAR MORE than in any basketball game!! Our Rights, Property, Money, and Freedom could all be involved!! |
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cops really don't care what type of gun you have as long as your not a felon or doing something extremely stupid. gross generalization is gross? there's plenty of upstanding, law abiding people out there who haven't had such pleasant encounters with law enforcement. |
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LEOs not knowing the law is inexcusable.
LEOs who don't KNOW the LAW should either keep their mouths shut or LEARN about the Laws they are trying to enforce. That is like having a basketball referee call a foul on someone and then not know what the player did wrong! Of course the stakes during a LEO contacts are FAR MORE than in any basketball game!! Our Rights, Property, Money, and Freedom could all be involved!! The prime duty for LEO's today is to collect money for the state, and THAT IS ALL! They are not there to protect you or serve you. Almost 1000 new laws are passed every year, all in the name of "safety". LEO's are the money collectors for these new laws. The State is broke and YOU need to pay for it...it's a corrupt reality we live in, it's what happens when government gets too big. |
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The prime duty for LEO's today is to collect money for the state, and THAT IS ALL! They are not there to protect you or serve you. Almost 1000 new laws are passed every year, all in the name of "safety". LEO's are the money collectors for these new laws. The State is broke and YOU need to pay for it...it's a corrupt reality we live in, it's what happens when government gets too big. 
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| This is why I do training with the deps at my station on a regular basis regarding the gun laws because there are so many misconceptions about the laws here. Also the OP never said they were trying to fuck him over, its not like the cops proned him out, cuffed him and slammed him in the back of a car while they investigated it. They made calls while talking with the OP and ended up leaving him alone. So I am not sure why they are getting bashed here. And to those who think every cop should memorize every single, law (municipal, federal, state, health & safety code etc...) its just not possible. And to the tax collector portion, No cop I know gives two shits about collecting any freaking money, we want bad guys to go to prison! And by bad guy I mean burgler, robber, rapist, etc.... so take off your tinfoil hat, no ones out to get you. |
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The prime duty for LEO's today is to collect money for the state, and THAT IS ALL! They are not there to protect you or serve you. Almost 1000 new laws are passed every year, all in the name of "safety". LEO's are the money collectors for these new laws. The State is broke and YOU need to pay for it...it's a corrupt reality we live in, it's what happens when government gets too big. /
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The prime duty for LEO's today is to collect money for the state, and THAT IS ALL! They are not there to protect you or serve you. Almost 1000 new laws are passed every year, all in the name of "safety". LEO's are the money collectors for these new laws. The State is broke and YOU need to pay for it...it's a corrupt reality we live in, it's what happens when government gets too big. / If you belive otherwise, you need to take a closer look at how government works, and the corruption/back room deal making that is involved in the process. You can post all the funny faces you want, that doesn't change reality. |
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The prime duty for LEO's today is to collect money for the state, and THAT IS ALL! They are not there to protect you or serve you. Almost 1000 new laws are passed every year, all in the name of "safety". LEO's are the money collectors for these new laws. The State is broke and YOU need to pay for it...it's a corrupt reality we live in, it's what happens when government gets too big. /
If you belive otherwise, you need to take a closer look at how government works, and the corruption/back room deal making that is involved in the process. You can post all the funny faces you want, that doesn't change reality. Loosen up the band on that tinfoil hat, there! I can absolutely guarantee that I have NEVER been told to go out and generate funds. In fact, I cost so much and we get so little from ticket revenue that it costs my Department every time I write a citation. You could not be more wrong, sir. |
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Quoted: Quoted: LEOs not knowing the law is inexcusable. LEOs who don't KNOW the LAW should either keep their mouths shut or LEARN about the Laws they are trying to enforce. That is like having a basketball referee call a foul on someone and then not know what the player did wrong! Of course the stakes during a LEO contacts are FAR MORE than in any basketball game!! Our Rights, Property, Money, and Freedom could all be involved!! The prime duty for LEO's today is to collect money for the state, and THAT IS ALL! They are not there to protect you or serve you. Almost 1000 new laws are passed every year, all in the name of "safety". LEO's are the money collectors for these new laws. The State is broke and YOU need to pay for it...it's a corrupt reality we live in, it's what happens when government gets too big.  Start targeting the politicians who hand out money like they have an endless supply to illegals, generational welfare families, and environmentalists. The cops, in reality, don't think about "revenue generating" or how much the municipality they work for will get, or "collecting money". Most of that talk is because someone got caught breaking the law and now has to face the consequences of their actions. It's too bad if those consequences involve a monetary fine. The government you helped elect sets those fees, not the cops.Cops, lawyers, judges, and others in the system do not know all of the laws. Neither do you. That's why there are resources you can use while in the field. The protect and serve motto is from LAPD. You are correct, it doesn't "Protect and Serve You". |
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cops really don't care what type of gun you have as long as your not a felon or doing something extremely stupid. Not always true. Some cops were fat kids who got beat up a lot, and now they are dickeads. With guns and plenty of laws to select to enforce. I know that is true because cops are human just like everybody else. Cept they have guns, and lots of laws to jam you up with.... But most cops are OK, and all of them want to bust bad guys. |
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The prime duty for LEO's today is to collect money for the state, and THAT IS ALL! They are not there to protect you or serve you. Almost 1000 new laws are passed every year, all in the name of "safety". LEO's are the money collectors for these new laws. The State is broke and YOU need to pay for it...it's a corrupt reality we live in, it's what happens when government gets too big. /
If you belive otherwise, you need to take a closer look at how government works, and the corruption/back room deal making that is involved in the process. You can post all the funny faces you want, that doesn't change reality. Loosen up the band on that tinfoil hat, there! I can absolutely guarantee that I have NEVER been told to go out and generate funds. In fact, I cost so much and we get so little from ticket revenue that it costs my Department every time I write a citation. You could not be more wrong, sir. How fast are you moving up the ladder there officer? Of course you haven't been told to generate funds. But watch what happens to the guys who write a high volume of tickets. I am speaking from first hand experience. Don't try to debate me on this. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The prime duty for LEO's today is to collect money for the state, and THAT IS ALL! They are not there to protect you or serve you. Almost 1000 new laws are passed every year, all in the name of "safety". LEO's are the money collectors for these new laws. The State is broke and YOU need to pay for it...it's a corrupt reality we live in, it's what happens when government gets too big. / If you belive otherwise, you need to take a closer look at how government works, and the corruption/back room deal making that is involved in the process. You can post all the funny faces you want, that doesn't change reality. Loosen up the band on that tinfoil hat, there! I can absolutely guarantee that I have NEVER been told to go out and generate funds. In fact, I cost so much and we get so little from ticket revenue that it costs my Department every time I write a citation. You could not be more wrong, sir. How fast are you moving up the ladder there officer? Of course you haven't been told to generate funds. But watch what happens to the guys who write a high volume of tickets. I am speaking from first hand experience. Don't try to debate me on this. What agency did you work at? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The prime duty for LEO's today is to collect money for the state, and THAT IS ALL! They are not there to protect you or serve you. Almost 1000 new laws are passed every year, all in the name of "safety". LEO's are the money collectors for these new laws. The State is broke and YOU need to pay for it...it's a corrupt reality we live in, it's what happens when government gets too big. / If you belive otherwise, you need to take a closer look at how government works, and the corruption/back room deal making that is involved in the process. You can post all the funny faces you want, that doesn't change reality. Loosen up the band on that tinfoil hat, there! I can absolutely guarantee that I have NEVER been told to go out and generate funds. In fact, I cost so much and we get so little from ticket revenue that it costs my Department every time I write a citation. You could not be more wrong, sir. How fast are you moving up the ladder there officer? Of course you haven't been told to generate funds. But watch what happens to the guys who write a high volume of tickets. I am speaking from first hand experience. Don't try to debate me on this. I won't try and debate you then. But you're still wrong. |
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The prime duty for LEO's today is to collect money for the state, and THAT IS ALL! They are not there to protect you or serve you. Almost 1000 new laws are passed every year, all in the name of "safety". LEO's are the money collectors for these new laws. The State is broke and YOU need to pay for it...it's a corrupt reality we live in, it's what happens when government gets too big. /
If you belive otherwise, you need to take a closer look at how government works, and the corruption/back room deal making that is involved in the process. You can post all the funny faces you want, that doesn't change reality. Loosen up the band on that tinfoil hat, there! I can absolutely guarantee that I have NEVER been told to go out and generate funds. In fact, I cost so much and we get so little from ticket revenue that it costs my Department every time I write a citation. You could not be more wrong, sir. How fast are you moving up the ladder there officer? Of course you haven't been told to generate funds. But watch what happens to the guys who write a high volume of tickets. I am speaking from first hand experience. Don't try to debate me on this. What agency did you work at? Not happening. I'm not here to burn anyone or any department. Just the corrupt system and the way it works. It's not the agency's fault nor the LEO. It comes down the chain, LEO's are just doing what they are told to do. You were right with your original statement about the politicians and the mindless people who elect them. Ever think about why you can arrest/ticket someone for driving 80mph vs 70mph but you can't arrest someone that is in the counrty illegally? There is a great book I would recommend to you, it's called "One Nation under arrest". |
I had a problem in Bakersfield were my yugo 59/66 sks was confinscated and i was arrested for having an assult rifle it was so out of hand i had to get my receipt from the buissiness i had bought it in order for the judge to drop the charge and as for my sks i was never able to retrieve it.
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I had a problem in Bakersfield were my yugo 59/66 sks was confinscated and i was arrested for having an assult rifle it was so out of hand i had to get my receipt from the buissiness i had bought it in order for the judge to drop the charge and as for my sks i was never able to retrieve it. City or sheriff and how long ago? |
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I had a problem in Bakersfield were my yugo 59/66 sks was confinscated and i was arrested for having an assult rifle it was so out of hand i had to get my receipt from the buissiness i had bought it in order for the judge to drop the charge and as for my sks i was never able to retrieve it. low post count check recent join date check lack of spelling check no response to questions check
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The prime duty for LEO's today is to collect money for the state, and THAT IS ALL! They are not there to protect you or serve you. Almost 1000 new laws are passed every year, all in the name of "safety". LEO's are the money collectors for these new laws. The State is broke and YOU need to pay for it...it's a corrupt reality we live in, it's what happens when government gets too big. /
If you belive otherwise, you need to take a closer look at how government works, and the corruption/back room deal making that is involved in the process. You can post all the funny faces you want, that doesn't change reality. Loosen up the band on that tinfoil hat, there! I can absolutely guarantee that I have NEVER been told to go out and generate funds. In fact, I cost so much and we get so little from ticket revenue that it costs my Department every time I write a citation. You could not be more wrong, sir. How fast are you moving up the ladder there officer? Of course you haven't been told to generate funds. But watch what happens to the guys who write a high volume of tickets. I am speaking from first hand experience. Don't try to debate me on this. What agency did you work at? Not happening. I'm not here to burn anyone or any department. Just the corrupt system and the way it works. It's not the agency's fault nor the LEO. It comes down the chain, LEO's are just doing what they are told to do. You were right with your original statement about the politicians and the mindless people who elect them. Ever think about why you can arrest/ticket someone for driving 80mph vs 70mph but you can't arrest someone that is in the counrty illegally? There is a great book I would recommend to you, it's called "One Nation under arrest". I call bullshit. If you are not willing to elaborate on your first hand experience, then you probably do not have any. With the exception of CHP, most cops (deputies and police) despise the thought of working traffic and writing tickets. You get the recognition and promotions by working hard and making the big arrests. Who gives a shit about some stupid ass speeding ticket for 10 mph over? And the illegal alien issue is from dumbass politicians, not from street cops. Many people i know get promoted or transferred to special units have written very few, if any, traffic tickets, unless the traffic stop lead to the discovery of drugs, wanted suspects, etc. Finally, LEO's do not know EVERY law. That would be impossible. Have you seen the size and content of the state statutory books? It is unreasonable to expect. But I can assure you that I know many cops who understand the laws better than many DA's and judges. We do our best to protect the sheep, so stop hating. This is one of the reasons I am starting to dislike ARFCOM. |
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We do our best to protect the sheep, so stop hating. This is one of the reasons I am starting to dislike ARFCOM. Well I dislike anybody using the term "sheep" when referring to people, and I might just hate it that LEOs use the term for the non-LEO public. If you think we are sheep, and you are something else, I urge you to go fuck yourself as soon as you can. Unless you are military, then you are a civilian, just like most people. You are no different. |
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Quoted: Quoted: We do our best to protect the sheep, so stop hating. This is one of the reasons I am starting to dislike ARFCOM. Well I dislike anybody using the term "sheep" when referring to people, and I might just hate it that LEOs use the term for the non-LEO public. If you think we are sheep, and you are something else, I urge you to go fuck yourself as soon as you can. Unless you are military, then you are a civilian, just like most people. You are no different. I would suggest you Google "On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman" to understand what I believe he meant when he referred to sheep. It's an analogy and nothing more, hardly worth a CoC violation. |
Please read my response on page one (first response to the original poster before you think I'm a basher/hater. 
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Finally, LEO's do not know EVERY law. That would be impossible. Have you seen the size and content of the state statutory books? It is unreasonable to expect. But I can assure you that I know many cops who understand the laws better than many DA's and judges. We do our best to protect the sheep, so stop hating. This is one of the reasons I am starting to dislike ARFCOM. Yet as a sheep I am responsible for knowing and obeying every single law in that sizable statutory book less I get arrested, fined or spend time in jail. 
And nobody sees anything wrong with that? There was a time when the people limited government's ability to control their freedoms and liberty. I now challenge you to give me anything in your life of substance that isn't limited, controlled, regulated, or taxed. The number of laws is fucking impossible to obey. I'm more than certain that I commit a crime every day. If a professional law enforcement officer who earns his pay enforcing the laws full time can't possibly know all the laws how does a citizen who spends his life working to pay that cop possibly have a chance? Since being transferred to the fleet reserve and obtaining my retirement from military service I have become jaded. I was fined $100 for putting my wheels 20 feet off road in a place where people have been driving on the dirt roads for 40 years. No signs posted, completely private property. I wasn't dumping trash, driving crazy, or even shooting. I drove my rear wheels onto the well established trail that was older than the cops stopping me and and got cited. I said that I had lived in the city for ten years and never knew, I was sorry, and I wouldn't do it again. Guys runs me for wants and warrants and returns with my $100 donation. Son of a bitch that was disrespectful. Driving home one night I get stopped for having my roof lights visible - not in use - just visible. Another fine. Fuck you. No warning just pay the fine. I was born on a Saturday but not last Saturday. The police officers have been separated from the citizens in uniform, in speech, and in the laws that do and do not apply to them. They no longer consider themselves civilians. This has been done on purpose. This has been done by design. This has been done with great expense ... why bother? The government has gone hog wild populating every single aspect of our lives. When I was under the UCMJ I was even regulated on how I could have sex with my wife. Just look at the number of dumb-ass laws written by completely out-of-touch punk politicians who you're either laugh in their faces or punch out over most of the laws that come into being. Recently I heard that there's a bill that will prohibit the government from seizing the vehicles of drunken illegal alien drivers who don't have a licenses nor insurance for the normal 30-days. Cite and release only. WTF Gil? Really? It's hard for me to support this state and nation's thinking any more. I have 31 years of federal government service and know. I've seen the changes. I know where we've come from and see where I'm going. Most folks don't pay enough attention. Most people don't care. |
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It's hard for me to support this state and nation's thinking any more. I have 31 years of federal government service and know. I've seen the changes. I know where we've come from and see where I'm going. Most folks don't pay enough attention. Most people don't care. no, you've got friends in LE that share your opinion. Many of them are about as fed up with administration of their own department as you are with the bigger picture referencing society in general. Sad thing is that a lot of those kinds of folks are on the short timer list counting their days to retirement. Depending on geographic location maybe your experiences are with a department that already has seen the loss of it's older generation that shares your(and mine) outlook. The old guard recognizes who deserves to have a little government interference in their lives and who does not deserve it. With luck, the newer and younger generation will figure it out one day soon as well and overcome the conditioning. |
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I guess what bothered me was that at first both LEOs had that attitude that I was either bullshitting them and or guilty of something. I was shooting with my 11 year old son at the time, way back off split mountain by OW. I never showed any attitude so the one guy eased up, the other guy, the one I offered to show the DOJ paperwork to was an ass.
People go camping out there with there families ect. Quite place that is completely legal to shoot at. The one guy keeps insisting that someone is shooting a full auto gun, and thats why there stopping by, I only had one mag for the guns. To the guys who are LEOs guess how freaked out my son was. no good. I go way out there to avoid this stuff, BTW Yuma has a great place to shoot and its free as well. Don't call me paranoid when this guy is telling me Ive got a machine gun in my hands, I had about 4k worth of guns, my wifes Toyota fj, and I'm way to good lookin to be locked up.  Like I said my son was not happy ( he was shooting the AK ) Its sad because I remember shooting with my dad and I don't remember any " spread your cheeks and lift your sack stuff " jk. I'm over it, but it could have ended poorly.
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Please read my response on page one (first response to the original poster before you think I'm a basher/hater.
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Finally, LEO's do not know EVERY law. That would be impossible. Have you seen the size and content of the state statutory books? It is unreasonable to expect. But I can assure you that I know many cops who understand the laws better than many DA's and judges. We do our best to protect the sheep, so stop hating. This is one of the reasons I am starting to dislike ARFCOM. Yet as a sheep I am responsible for knowing and obeying every single law in that sizable statutory book less I get arrested, fined or spend time in jail.
And nobody sees anything wrong with that? There was a time when the people limited government's ability to control their freedoms and liberty. I now challenge you to give me anything in your life of substance that isn't limited, controlled, regulated, or taxed. The number of laws is fucking impossible to obey. I'm more than certain that I commit a crime every day. If a professional law enforcement officer who earns his pay enforcing the laws full time can't possibly know all the laws how does a citizen who spends his life working to pay that cop possibly have a chance? Very well put. It is way too hard to be an upstanding citizen these days, makes you wonder why the govt. would do that.... |
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Just to clarify:
In short, by sheep, I mean't someone who is not ready or capable of protecting themselves. They are the "unprotected", regardless of whether they are civilian, law enforcement, military, or otherwise. It is not a derogatory term, as our society could not function without them. And, simply by the nature of this site, I would assume most ARFCOMMERS are not in this category, as most of us are concerned with self-protection. So before you start criticizing, figure out what I am talking about first. As previously stated, it is an analogy. As far as the laws, I know it is unreasonable to literally expect someone to know all the laws. In most states, by accepting a driver's license, you agree to understand all the laws, which is unreasonable. Most (but not all) other laws require an element of intent. |
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...And to those who think every cop should memorize every single, law (municipal, federal, state, health & safety code etc...) its just not possible. If it is not possible for LEOs to know the laws, then IGNORANCE OF THE LAW really IS an excuse! If something isn't important enough for LEOs to know the laws regarding it, then maybe it just isn't important enough for there to be a law about it. |
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Sorry about not replying back hadnt checked in a day or so. The incident happend back in 2003 when i returned from a tour in Iraq i was headed to an area to shoot and i was pulled over and it was local city pd. Well there's your problem right there. You returned from deployment and immediately attempted to take your service weapon out to go shooting, that's a no go... unless I misunderstood your statement due to the interjection of irrelevant information? (or perhaps due to your sentence running a marathon...) |
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I'm in San Diego and I'm just curious if anyone else has had any cops ask you what your shooting (them not having a clue). I was approached in the desert by two sheriffs who really had no clue. One guy looks over my Mega built lower and clearly has no clue when I tell him its an off list lower. He tells me that he needs to radio someone to find out, I offer to let him read my copy of the DOJ and state 89 ban list that I carry, he declined like I was trying to show him up to his partner, weird. His partner looks at my AK 74 and says " nice sks " I tell him no its an AK and show him my mag release blocking plate and the mags I limited and riveted. In the end nothing was verified by them other than what I told them. This could have ended poorly because these guys didn't know much, I do structural steel inspection for a living and the contractors always say "show me" when there not following the code or standards or contract drawings. I HAVE TO PROVE IT FIRST. Cops not so much I guess ? Anybody else run into this... Am I special ? There's a difference. If you bang someone up, and then they find out you're wrong, you get dinged, fired, reprimanded, whatever. I assume you have a state license, and I bet that can be pulled. Cops, if they're wrong, everyone shrugs and says, "Their intentions were good. They can't be expected to know all of the laws. Their job is dangerous, we have to give them some leeway." They keep their jobs and pensions, and at worst might have to attend some kind of training on the issue which they sleep through and then go do the same thing again. Do you understand now? 
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Just to clarify: In short, by sheep, I mean't someone who is not ready or capable of protecting themselves. They are the "unprotected", regardless of whether they are civilian, law enforcement, military, or otherwise. It is not a derogatory term, as our society could not function without them. Thank you for your polite clarification. I apologize for my reaction above. However, I strongly disagree with your take on the term "sheep." I find it very offensive, and I suspect most other do, too. The metaphor implicates three characters: the sheep, the shepherd, and the wolf. Of those, the sheep is stupid, fungible, anonymous, unwitting, and eaten for food by the others. Yes it is the foundation of the local economy, but that is a dubious honor. The benevolent Shepard is the smartest of all, and loved by all. The hero. The wolf of course is wild, free, and the ultimate predator. So if a cop refers to people as sheep, then he is calling the people stupid, unwitting food. I presume when you use the metaphor, you and other LEOs are not included as sheep, but as the shepards. You may not have meant it that way, but that's how it is, and it is pretty damn insulting to us non-LEOs. Thanks again for the polite response to my impolite reply. 
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Just to clarify: In short, by sheep, I mean't someone who is not ready or capable of protecting themselves. They are the "unprotected", regardless of whether they are civilian, law enforcement, military, or otherwise. It is not a derogatory term, as our society could not function without them. Thank you for your polite clarification. I apologize for my reaction above. However, I strongly disagree with your take on the term "sheep." I find it very offensive, and I suspect most other do, too. The metaphor implicates three characters: the sheep, the shepherd, and the wolf. Of those, the sheep is stupid, fungible, anonymous, unwitting, and eaten for food by the others. Yes it is the foundation of the local economy, but that is a dubious honor. The benevolent Shepard is the smartest of all, and loved by all. The hero. The wolf of course is wild, free, and the ultimate predator. So if a cop refers to people as sheep, then he is calling the people stupid, unwitting food. I presume when you use the metaphor, you and other LEOs are not included as sheep, but as the shepards. You may not have meant it that way, but that's how it is, and it is pretty damn insulting to us non-LEOs. Thanks again for the polite response to my impolite reply.
Understood, and I will keep that in mind for the future. I never meant it like that, but perception is reality, and I do not want it perceived that way. |
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OP, sorry for joining in on the off topic conversation.
I do not speak for everyone who has ever referred to the general public as sheep. When I use that term I do not consider myself as the shepherd. Instead I am the sheepdog.... hated, feared, and avoided by sheep for they are only pleased by my presence when it is time to ward off predators. The sheep need not fear the sheepdog he has no intention of harming them. The metaphor only speaks to a few roles in society. That being said not all members of the public are sheep, those who are choose to be that way, or are not aware there is any other way. Do you see people totally unaware, walking with earphones on, latte in one hand, cell phone in the other, looking down at their feet so they can text message and walk at the same time? That person is probably a sheep, oblivious to what surrounds them, most likely unable to protect themselves also unable to avoid situations which would put them in harms way. A victim, an easy target for the wolf. How many of you scan every public area you enter? Are their potential threats? What are possible egress routs? Where can I sit and observe the majority of the room and the main entrance points? Those of you who keep things like this in mind when making mundane decisions in life should not be offended by the metaphor, you are not sheep. My two cents, no offense intended. |
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Just to clarify: In short, by sheep, I mean't someone who is not ready or capable of protecting themselves. They are the "unprotected", regardless of whether they are civilian, law enforcement, military, or otherwise. It is not a derogatory term, as our society could not function without them. Thank you for your polite clarification. I apologize for my reaction above. However, I strongly disagree with your take on the term "sheep." I find it very offensive, and I suspect most other do, too. The metaphor implicates three characters: the sheep, the shepherd, and the wolf. Of those, the sheep is stupid, fungible, anonymous, unwitting, and eaten for food by the others. Yes it is the foundation of the local economy, but that is a dubious honor. The benevolent Shepard is the smartest of all, and loved by all. The hero. The wolf of course is wild, free, and the ultimate predator. So if a cop refers to people as sheep, then he is calling the people stupid, unwitting food. I presume when you use the metaphor, you and other LEOs are not included as sheep, but as the shepards. You may not have meant it that way, but that's how it is, and it is pretty damn insulting to us non-LEOs. Thanks again for the polite response to my impolite reply.
I view no armed "average joe" as a sheep. Period. If anything, I view them as a potential ally in turning things around and making a meaningful difference. Now, on the opposite side of the coin. The worry wart soccer moms who get all in a snit over the mere thought of a gun, the same ones who want everyone to be equally as deluded and defenseless as the result of their own misguided willful decisions in life. Yeah, those are sheep. Mindset, nothing more. For what it's worth. I consider a couple cops in my own department to have sheep mindsets which is really troubling. I was an ARFcom member years before ever getting into LE. The general perception of the 2nd Amendment and the rights of people to own firearms for self defense has never wandered and if anything it has only been bolstered. I know quite a good number of LE types that share my opinions on things from CCW permits to the hopeful reversal of the AW ban. Problem is that many of them leave the state when they retire just like the rest of the honest hard working folks. |
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Just to clarify: In short, by sheep, I mean't someone who is not ready or capable of protecting themselves. They are the "unprotected", regardless of whether they are civilian, law enforcement, military, or otherwise. It is not a derogatory term, as our society could not function without them. Thank you for your polite clarification. I apologize for my reaction above. However, I strongly disagree with your take on the term "sheep." I find it very offensive, and I suspect most other do, too. The metaphor implicates three characters: the sheep, the shepherd, and the wolf. Of those, the sheep is stupid, fungible, anonymous, unwitting, and eaten for food by the others. Yes it is the foundation of the local economy, but that is a dubious honor. The benevolent Shepard is the smartest of all, and loved by all. The hero. The wolf of course is wild, free, and the ultimate predator. So if a cop refers to people as sheep, then he is calling the people stupid, unwitting food. I presume when you use the metaphor, you and other LEOs are not included as sheep, but as the shepards. You may not have meant it that way, but that's how it is, and it is pretty damn insulting to us non-LEOs. Thanks again for the polite response to my impolite reply.
I view no armed "average joe" as a sheep. Period. If anything, I view them as a potential ally in turning things around and making a meaningful difference. Now, on the opposite side of the coin. The worry wart soccer moms who get all in a snit over the mere thought of a gun, the same ones who want everyone to be equally as deluded and defenseless as the result of their own misguided willful decisions in life. Yeah, those are sheep. Mindset, nothing more. For what it's worth. I consider a couple cops in my own department to have sheep mindsets which is really troubling. I was an ARFcom member years before ever getting into LE. The general perception of the 2nd Amendment and the rights of people to own firearms for self defense has never wandered and if anything it has only been bolstered. I know quite a good number of LE types that share my opinions on things from CCW permits to the hopeful reversal of the AW ban. Problem is that many of them leave the state when they retire just like the rest of the honest hard working folks. I did not notice that the term "shepard" was used in place of "sheepdog". Sheepdog is much more fitting to the meaning. And yes, I know many cops who are "Sheep" (sorry for using it again), and I know many non-LEO civilians who are sheepdogs. It is a mindset issue. But the simple fact of the matter is that if it offends others, or if it is perceived the wrong way, then I should not throw the term wildly about. I still believe that any ARFCOMMER who has heard or read Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's speech about "The Sheep, The Wolf, and the Sheepdog" would understand the point of view and also consider themselves sheepdogs. |
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OP –– sorry for getting this thing so far off topic. You can yell and curse at me all you want, I deserve it.
BTW, for those who have never heard it, here it is: "Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for?" - William J. Bennett In a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997 One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: “Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident.” This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million. Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin’s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators. “Then there are the wolves,” the old war veteran said, “and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.” Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial. “Then there are sheepdogs,” he went on, “and I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.” Or, as a sign in one California law enforcement agency put it, “We intimidate those who intimidate others.” If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen: a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath––a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed. The gift of aggression "What goes on around you... compares little with what goes on inside you." - Ralph Waldo Emerson Everyone has been given a gift in life. Some people have a gift for science and some have a flair for art. And warriors have been given the gift of aggression. They would no more misuse this gift than a doctor would misuse his healing arts, but they yearn for the opportunity to use their gift to help others. These people, the ones who have been blessed with the gift of aggression and a love for others, are our sheepdogs. These are our warriors. One career police officer wrote to me about this after attending one of my Bulletproof Mind training sessions: "I want to say thank you for finally shedding some light on why it is that I can do what I do. I always knew why I did it. I love my [citizens], even the bad ones, and had a talent that I could return to my community. I just couldn’t put my finger on why I could wade through the chaos, the gore, the sadness, if given a chance try to make it all better, and walk right out the other side." Let me expand on this old soldier’s excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids’ schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid’s school. Our children are dozens of times more likely to be killed, and thousands of times more likely to be seriously injured, by school violence than by school fires, but the sheep’s only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their children is just too hard, so they choose the path of denial. The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn’t tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, “Baa.” Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog. As Kipling said in his poem about “Tommy” the British soldier: While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind," But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind, There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind, O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind. The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. Look at what happened after September 11, 2001, when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero? Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones. Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, “Thank God I wasn’t on one of those planes.” The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, “Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference.” When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference. While there is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, he does have one real advantage. Only one. He is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory acts of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself. However, when there were cues given by potential victims that indicated they would not go easily, the cons said that they would walk away. If the cons sensed that the target was a "counter-predator," that is, a sheepdog, they would leave him alone unless there was no other choice but to engage. One police officer told me that he rode a commuter train to work each day. One day, as was his usual, he was standing in the crowded car, dressed in blue jeans, T-shirt and jacket, holding onto a pole and reading a paperback. At one of the stops, two street toughs boarded, shouting and cursing and doing every obnoxious thing possible to intimidate the other riders. The officer continued to read his book, though he kept a watchful eye on the two punks as they strolled along the aisle making comments to female passengers, and banging shoulders with men as they passed. As they approached the officer, he lowered his novel and made eye contact with them. “You got a problem, man?” one of the IQ-challenged punks asked. “You think you’re tough, or somethin’?” the other asked, obviously offended that this one was not shirking away from them. “As a matter of fact, I am tough,” the officer said, calmly and with a steady gaze. The two looked at him for a long moment, and then without saying a word, turned and moved back down the aisle to continue their taunting of the other passengers, the sheep. Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I’m proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs. Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, “Let’s roll,” which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers––athletes, business people and parents––from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground. “Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?” "There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men." - Edmund Burke Reflections on the Revolution in France Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn’t have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision. If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior’s path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door. For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to slaughter you and your loved ones. I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, “I will never be caught without my gun in church.” I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a police officer he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas, in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down 14 people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy’s body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, “Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?” Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for “heads to roll” if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids’ school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them. Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, “Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?” The warrior must cleanse denial from his thinking. Coach Bob Lindsey, a renowned law enforcement trainer, says that warriors must practice “when/then” thinking, not “if/when.” Instead of saying,“If it happens then I will take action,” the warrior says, “When it happens then I will be ready.” It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up. Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: You didn’t bring your gun; you didn’t train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by fear, helplessness, horror and shame at your moment of truth. Chuck Yeager, the famous test pilot and first man to fly faster than the speed of sound, says that he knew he could die. There was no denial for him. He did not allow himself the luxury of denial. This acceptance of reality can cause fear, but it is a healthy, controlled fear that will keep you alive: "I was always afraid of dying. Always. It was my fear that made me learn everything I could about my airplane and my emergency equipment, and kept me flying respectful of my machine and always alert in the cockpit." - Brigadier General Chuck Yeager Yeager, An Autobiography Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "..denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn’t so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling. Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level." And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are a warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be “on” 24/7 for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... “Baa.” This business of being a sheep or a sheepdog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-grass sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth. |
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wow this turned into a sheep thread.
for the record I don't hate cops, its a job. I just wish these guys would have taken it seriously and drop the attitude. If I lack in knowledge in my job Id get fired. Thats why I buy and carry some damn expensive books, I also have to re certify and test. I guess I'm lucky my job isn't easy and hopefully I don't have to worry about getting shot at or worse yet videoed |
