Posted: 12/19/2009 10:51:59 PM EDT
| Is it possible to buy an off list lower reciever and have a gun smith install a bullet button? I want to get a nice lower, but obviously I need it to be legal. |
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Quoted: Uh sure. You could have your doctor install it if you want.  Also, you are aware that a stripped lower, or even a complete lower does not need a bullet button unless it is mated with an upper, yes? That's not true. A complete lower with either an adjustable stock and/or a pistol grip MUST have a bullet button installed to be legal, upper or not. To address your question OP, a bullet button is no more difficult to install than a regular mag release button. There is an additional step, you have to sand the ribs down a bit in order for it to fit easily into the lower. Personally, I like to sand them off completely, it makes removal much easier for those trips to Nevada.
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Uh sure. You could have your doctor install it if you want.
Also, you are aware that a stripped lower, or even a complete lower does not need a bullet button unless it is mated with an upper, yes? That's not true. A complete lower with either an adjustable stock and/or a pistol grip MUST have a bullet button installed to be legal, upper or not.
You're flat out wrong. A lower with a pistol grip, collapsible stock, or thumbhole stock and a regular magazine release is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. It can have one or all prohibited features and a detachable magazine because while the lower is not mated to an upper, it is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Uh sure. You could have your doctor install it if you want. Also, you are aware that a stripped lower, or even a complete lower does not need a bullet button unless it is mated with an upper, yes? That's not true. A complete lower with either an adjustable stock and/or a pistol grip MUST have a bullet button installed to be legal, upper or not. You're flat out wrong. A lower with a pistol grip, collapsible stock, or thumbhole stock and a regular magazine release is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. It can have one or all prohibited features and a detachable magazine because while the lower is not mated to an upper, it is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. Um no. The upper means nothing. The lower is the firearm and a 'completed' rifle in the CA DOJs eyes is nothing more than a completed lower. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Uh sure. You could have your doctor install it if you want. Also, you are aware that a stripped lower, or even a complete lower does not need a bullet button unless it is mated with an upper, yes? That's not true. A complete lower with either an adjustable stock and/or a pistol grip MUST have a bullet button installed to be legal, upper or not. You're flat out wrong. A lower with a pistol grip, collapsible stock, or thumbhole stock and a regular magazine release is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. It can have one or all prohibited features and a detachable magazine because while the lower is not mated to an upper, it is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. Go find a dealer who's willing to sell a complete lower, standard mag release, in Ca. Either learn the facts or quit giving legal advice. |
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Uh sure. You could have your doctor install it if you want.
Also, you are aware that a stripped lower, or even a complete lower does not need a bullet button unless it is mated with an upper, yes? That's not true. A complete lower with either an adjustable stock and/or a pistol grip MUST have a bullet button installed to be legal, upper or not.
You're flat out wrong. A lower with a pistol grip, collapsible stock, or thumbhole stock and a regular magazine release is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. It can have one or all prohibited features and a detachable magazine because while the lower is not mated to an upper, it is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. Go find a dealer who's willing to sell a complete lower, standard mag release, in Ca. Either learn the facts or quit giving legal advice. I know of several, what's your fucking point? |
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Quoted:A complete lower with either an adjustable stock and/or a pistol grip MUST have a bullet button installed to be legal, upper or not.
Actually, you are incorrect. A receiver without an upper assembly that is otherwise incapable of firing is not a "semiautomatic centerfire rifle". It would simply be a Title 1 firearm (likely, but not absolutely, DROSed as a Long Gun) with installed <characteristic/feature(s)>. Go find a dealer who's willing to sell a complete lower, standard mag release, in Ca.
Sure, I know of several who would do so- and be entirely within the law. Is it prudent, considering that many less-aware consumers may just take it home and build it into an assault weapon? No, but neither does a lower with standard mag release an assault weapon make. Either learn the facts or quit giving legal advice. [/div][div]
I suggest you might benefit from doing the same; http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page. |
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Uh sure. You could have your doctor install it if you want.
Also, you are aware that a stripped lower, or even a complete lower does not need a bullet button unless it is mated with an upper, yes? That's not true. A complete lower with either an adjustable stock and/or a pistol grip MUST have a bullet button installed to be legal, upper or not.
You're flat out wrong. A lower with a pistol grip, collapsible stock, or thumbhole stock and a regular magazine release is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. It can have one or all prohibited features and a detachable magazine because while the lower is not mated to an upper, it is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. Um no. The upper means nothing. The lower is the firearm and a 'completed' rifle in the CA DOJs eyes is nothing more than a completed lower. You are likewise incorrect. California assault weapons laws are not subject to constructive possession. A lower without an upper receiver is still a firearm, that isn't in dispute (and it's the ATF's classification, not the CA DOJ's), but it isn't a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. There are many different uppers available for the AR15, including bolt action, centerfire upper receivers and semi-automatic, rimfire uppers. A lower receiver with a standard mag release and "evil features" can be mated with either of those two options without triggering PC12276.1(a). So, yeah, a lower receiver can have a pistol grip and a standard mag release on it without being illegal. |
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Quoted:A complete lower with either an adjustable stock and/or a pistol grip MUST have a bullet button installed to be legal, upper or not.
Actually, you are incorrect. A receiver without an upper assembly that is otherwise incapable of firing is not a "semiautomatic centerfire rifle". It would simply be a Title 1 firearm (likely, but not absolutely, DROSed as a Long Gun) with installed <characteristic/feature(s)>. He's talking about a complete lower, presumably with buttstock attached. As far as I am aware, it would be a long gun. |
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My friends Wildhawker and DedEye are indeed correct.
A lower, even with pistol grip and stock and fire-control parts stuffed in it, is neither semiauto nor centerfire. It's arguably also not a rifle because it cannot fire. The upper determines centerfire vs rimfire and semiauto vs manual-cycled or single-shot status. If it's not attached, the gun does not have those attributes; those attributes cannot be "forced" to an upperless-lower receiver since constructive possession does not apply. [It's not a good idea to just drive around with separated upper and lower with no BB, though - that's just pushin' it.] Bill Wiese San Jose CA |
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Well if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. My understanding is that a complete lower is a firearm under the DOJ's rules. We all know that it isn't, but common sense doesn't apply in most Ca gun legislation. I don't want to see anyone do something that they believe to be legal, only to possibly run into issues due to the technical definitions (legalese). Personally I take the conservative approach in any complete lower and install a bullet button. What's the point of doing otherwise? If you decide to make a standard mag release equipped lower functional by adding an upper, it's immediately an illegal firearm.
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Well if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. My understanding is that a complete lower is a firearm under the DOJ's rules. We all know that it isn't, but common sense doesn't apply in most Ca gun legislation. I don't want to see anyone do something that they believe to be legal, only to possibly run into issues due to the technical definitions (legalese). Personally I take the conservative approach in any complete lower and install a bullet button. What's the point of doing otherwise? If you decide to make a standard mag release equipped lower functional by adding an upper, it's immediately an illegal firearm. No, it isn't, and that's what I keep trying to point out. A standard magazine release equipped lower can legally be used with semi-auto rimfire uppers, and bolt action or single shot centerfire uppers. ETA: Also, a complete lower IS a firearm. It just isn't a semi-automatic, centerfire one. That's the distinction that keeps getting missed. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Well if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. My understanding is that a complete lower is a firearm under the DOJ's rules. We all know that it isn't, but common sense doesn't apply in most Ca gun legislation. I don't want to see anyone do something that they believe to be legal, only to possibly run into issues due to the technical definitions (legalese). Personally I take the conservative approach in any complete lower and install a bullet button. What's the point of doing otherwise? If you decide to make a standard mag release equipped lower functional by adding an upper, it's immediately an illegal firearm. No, it isn't, and that's what I keep trying to point out. A standard magazine release equipped lower can legally be used with semi-auto rimfire uppers, and bolt action or single shot centerfire uppers. ETA: Also, a complete lower IS a firearm. It just isn't a semi-automatic, centerfire one. That's the distinction that keeps getting missed. Ok, so maybe 1% of the time a standard, complete lower can be mated with an upper legally. Forgive me, I don't have any bolt action uppers or .22 kits. My frame of reference is centerfire, semi auto ownership. ETA: I learned something new today, thank you.  |
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Well if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. My understanding is that a complete lower is a firearm under the DOJ's rules. We all know that it isn't, but common sense doesn't apply in most Ca gun legislation. I don't want to see anyone do something that they believe to be legal, only to possibly run into issues due to the technical definitions (legalese). Personally I take the conservative approach in any complete lower and install a bullet button. What's the point of doing otherwise? If you decide to make a standard mag release equipped lower functional by adding an upper, it's immediately an illegal firearm. No, it isn't, and that's what I keep trying to point out. A standard magazine release equipped lower can legally be used with semi-auto rimfire uppers, and bolt action or single shot centerfire uppers. ETA: Also, a complete lower IS a firearm. It just isn't a semi-automatic, centerfire one. That's the distinction that keeps getting missed. Ok, so maybe 1% of the time a standard, complete lower can be mated with an upper legally. Forgive me, I don't have any bolt action uppers or .22 kits. My frame of reference is centerfire, semi auto ownership. ETA: I learned something new today, thank you. That's what we're here for. I'd suggest getting a Spike's .22 upper. They're tits. |
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What's the point of doing otherwise? If you decide to make a standard mag release equipped lower functional by adding an upper, it's immediately an illegal firearm.[/div][/div] While I think yours is a reasonable approach to avoid any possibility of assembling an AW, it's important to note that assembling a rifle from a non-maglocked lower doesn't necessarily trigger AW status; if the rifle is otherwise featureless and based on an OLL receiver it would be a CA-compliant rifle. |
| Man you guys are fuckin hostile. Right now i'm just planning on getting a stripped lower. I'm low on money at the moment and i'd like to get the part that really counts before CA gets screwed again. That way I can build it up the way i'd like to and take my time doing it. I'm sure there are lowers out there with bullet buttons already installed that are hgh quality, but I like having options. |
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Man you guys are fuckin hostile. Right now i'm just planning on getting a stripped lower. I'm low on money at the moment and i'd like to get the part that really counts before CA gets screwed again. That way I can build it up the way i'd like to and take my time doing it. I'm sure there are lowers out there with bullet buttons already installed that are hgh quality, but I like having options. I'm all for increasing the numbers of EBRs in CA but the fact is that CA will not be screwing us out of any more ARs and AKs- no need to be concerned about any more new "listed" rifles thanks to AB2728. |
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Man you guys are fuckin hostile. Right now i'm just planning on getting a stripped lower. I'm low on money at the moment and i'd like to get the part that really counts before CA gets screwed again. That way I can build it up the way i'd like to and take my time doing it. I'm sure there are lowers out there with bullet buttons already installed that are hgh quality, but I like having options. I have a low tolerance for bullshit. The odds of CA "getting screwed again" in terms of firearms and AWs is low, to say the least. Any lower can come with a bullet button preinstalled, it just depends on if the FFL selling you the receiver is willing to take 15-30 seconds to install it before they transfer it to you. They're no different than any other lower. |
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Man you guys are fuckin hostile. Right now i'm just planning on getting a stripped lower. I'm low on money at the moment and i'd like to get the part that really counts before CA gets screwed again. That way I can build it up the way i'd like to and take my time doing it. I'm sure there are lowers out there with bullet buttons already installed that are hgh quality, but I like having options.[/qu Still haven't got one? |
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Thanks to all the guys who came to my defense on that one and pointed out what is right, but I am going to get in my defense as well.
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Well if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. My understanding is that a complete lower is a firearm under the DOJ's rules. We all know that it isn't, but common sense doesn't apply in most Ca gun legislation. I don't want to see anyone do something that they believe to be legal, only to possibly run into issues due to the technical definitions (legalese). Personally I take the conservative approach in any complete lower and install a bullet button. What's the point of doing otherwise? If you decide to make a standard mag release equipped lower functional by adding an upper, it's immediately an illegal firearm. The lower receiver is indeed considered a firearm. What you fail to understand is items such as assault weapons are not defined as firearms. They are defined firstly, as semi auto, centerfire rifles capable of accepting detachable magazines and the so called evil features. If you can somehow manage to make your lower receiver both semiautomatic and centerfire then your original argument would hold water. The fact is that without a chamber or a barrel the rifle is not a centerfire firearm and without a gas system it is not a semi auto rifle. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if someone tells me something is illegal on a gun forum and cannot quote the Penal Code then they are wrong. And btw, my 2 local FFLs (used to be 3) will all happily accept a stripped or completed lower without a magazine lock. |