Posted: 4/26/2009 5:45:24 PM EDT
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I am looking to sell a firearm in the EE section to a resident of CA. Its a Del-Ton 16in M4 kit with a Mega lower. He told me that its an off list lower so its legal but I just wanted to verify. I dont want to catch any heat for selling a gun on here.
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"Illegal" or CA "Evil Features" are: -Flash Suppressors -Forward Pistol Grips -Flare/Grenade Launchers -Pistol Grips -Collapsible Stocks -Thumbhole Stocks If you do ship him the rifle, all of these will need to be removed (you can ship them separate to him) or a bullet button or mag lock will need to be installed. Make sure to let him know he will need that mag lock. Just having a 10rnd mag and an OLL is not enough. |
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"Illegal" or CA "Evil Features" are: -Flash Suppressors -Forward Pistol Grips -Flare/Grenade Launchers -Pistol Grips -Collapsible Stocks -Thumbhole Stocks If you do ship him the rifle, all of these will need to be removed (you can ship them separate to him) or a bullet button or mag lock will need to be installed. Make sure to let him know he will need that mag lock. Just having a 10rnd mag and an OLL is not enough. You can also legally separate the upper from the lower without worrying about installing the mag lock. If you do that, it'd probably be easier to just send the upper to him. If the lower isn't attached to the upper, it isn't considered a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle and is therefore fine with a pistol grip, collapsible stock and a standard magazine release. |
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"Illegal" or CA "Evil Features" are: -Flash Suppressors -Forward Pistol Grips -Flare/Grenade Launchers -Pistol Grips -Collapsible Stocks -Thumbhole Stocks If you do ship him the rifle, all of these will need to be removed (you can ship them separate to him) or a bullet button or mag lock will need to be installed. Make sure to let him know he will need that mag lock. Just having a 10rnd mag and an OLL is not enough. You can also legally separate the upper from the lower without worrying about installing the mag lock. If you do that, it'd probably be easier to just send the upper to him. If the lower isn't attached to the upper, it isn't considered a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle and is therefore fine with a pistol grip, collapsible stock and a standard magazine release. So just send the lower receiver to the FFL and the rest I can send directly to him? |
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"Illegal" or CA "Evil Features" are: -Flash Suppressors -Forward Pistol Grips -Flare/Grenade Launchers -Pistol Grips -Collapsible Stocks -Thumbhole Stocks If you do ship him the rifle, all of these will need to be removed (you can ship them separate to him) or a bullet button or mag lock will need to be installed. Make sure to let him know he will need that mag lock. Just having a 10rnd mag and an OLL is not enough. You can also legally separate the upper from the lower without worrying about installing the mag lock. If you do that, it'd probably be easier to just send the upper to him. If the lower isn't attached to the upper, it isn't considered a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle and is therefore fine with a pistol grip, collapsible stock and a standard magazine release. So just send the lower receiver to the FFL and the rest I can send directly to him? for an extra layer of protection (although not required), remove the pistol grip and send it along with the upper directly to him. that way, all the FFL is receiving is the lower receiver with butt stock, sans pistol grip. the impetus is on the purchaser to configure it correctly. |
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NO! You can not send the lower with the installed parts kit to a California FFL w/o a mag button. The upper makes no difference here, the lower is the "firearm" and must be sent to the FFL. Only stripped OLLS are allowed. I'd love to hear of an FFL here that will accept a complete lower on the basis that "a mag lock will be installed sometime" Only stripped (gotta take out all the parts) or with a mag lock. |
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NO! You can not send the lower with the installed parts kit to a California FFL w/o a mag button. The upper makes no difference here, the lower is the "firearm" and must be sent to the FFL. Only stripped OLLS are allowed. I'd love to hear of an FFL here that will accept a complete lower on the basis that "a mag lock will be installed sometime" Only stripped (gotta take out all the parts) or with a mag lock. If it doesn't have a piston grip installed but all the internals it is perfectly legal. It doesn't not have to be stripped or have a BB installed. While it may be the preference of some receiving FFLs it is not a legal requirement. |
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NO! You can not send the lower with the installed parts kit to a California FFL w/o a mag button. The upper makes no difference here, the lower is the "firearm" and must be sent to the FFL. Only stripped OLLS are allowed. I'd love to hear of an FFL here that will accept a complete lower on the basis that "a mag lock will be installed sometime" Only stripped (gotta take out all the parts) or with a mag lock. There's no stipulation in the law that the receiver be stripped, or that it be received with a magazine lock/bullet button already installed. All that is required is that the receiver be "off-list" and that it be configured in a manner compliant with PC 12276.1 A fully configured lower receiver with butt stock, pistol grip, and parts kit, is perfectly legal to ship/receive/transfer through an FFL WITHOUT a maglock/bullet button installed. It alone does not meet the requirements of being a "semi-auto, centerfire rifle, with the capacity to accept..." as it does not have a barrel/upper receiver attached. A lower receiver is incapable of firing a round. There's no way to determine what caliber a lower receiver is, therefor it does not meet the requirement of being a semi-auto, nor centerfire. You could very well, legitimately, and legally, be purchasing that fully assembled/configured lower receiver to put a .22LR upper on it. As for whether or not an FFL will transfer the complete lower without a maglock/bullet button attached, well, that's up to the FFL. 
Come on over to calguns.net, most of this has already been hashed out (ad nauseum) by the lawyers that the CALGUNS Foundation has secured. |
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I am running a collapsible stock on the lower, will that make a difference if I send only the complete lower? I will call a FFL in Cali before I finalize the deal. I *recommend* that you send the lower receiver, with the attached collapsible butt stock, sans pistol grip to the FFL. Separately send the pistol grip and upper receiver/barrel to the individual. Once the lower receiver is transferred to the buyer, he can choose to install a magazine lock/bullet button and leave the rifle as configured, or he can choose to replace the collapsible butt stock (and other offending features) and install a MonsterMan grip so that he can use detachable magazines. There are multiple ways to configure AR15s so that they comply with CA law. Now, his FFL may have more stringent requirements and require that the lower receiver either be received or leave his shop with a magazine lock/bullet button already installed. It all depends on the FFL. I would just make sure that the FFL understands and accepts what he's receiving and in what configuration it will arrive. There are many "off-list lower friendly" FFLs who have transferred 100's of CA compliant AR15s. If the buyer intends to use one of these FFLs they generally already understand all that's involved. If it's transferred through some back-woods FFL who's never done a transfer on an off-list lower, well then, that can make the transfer difficult. Some FFLs are ignorant of the law, have succumbed to the pressures of the DOJ, or don't want to take a chance with the DA (risking their business and livelihood). It's all FUD (fear, uncertainly, and doubt) but understandable. Best thing to do is thank them for their time, and move on to a "off-list lower friendly" FFL. An additional recommendation would be for you to check with the FFL and make sure that they are indeed "friendly." |
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I am running a collapsible stock on the lower, will that make a difference if I send only the complete lower? I will call a FFL in Cali before I finalize the deal. DJSCLICE, These people are taking an extreme conservative interpretation of California law. The California Assault Weapons ban that you are trying to deal with is the definition of an Assault Weapon. Per Senate Bill 23 an Assault Weapon in California is defined as a "semi-automatic, centerfire rifle with detachable magazines and any of the following features; collapsible/folding stocks, pistol grip, vertical pistol grip, grenade launching attachment, flash suppressor, and a thumbhole stock." Now lets apply this definition to shipping a lower to an FFL and an upper to the buyer. Is the lower recevier, without an upper, capable of semiautomatic fire? Is the lower without an upper capable of firing (in any manner) a centerfire cartridge? Is a completed lower receiver without an upper capable of semiautomatic fire? Is a completed lower receiver without an upper capable of firing in any matter a centerfire cartridge. The answer to every single question is no. Since it cannot be capable firing in any manner a centerfire cartridge or of semiautomatic fire it therefore cannot be an AW under Senate Bill 23. You can attach a pistol grip, a folding stock, a bayonet, a CD player, and a beer bottle opener and you still wouldn't violate any California law in importing that receiver. The only way a lower receiver can be a banned receiver in California is if it has "multi burst trigger attachment" such as a Hellfire trigger, it contains an automatic FCG, or it is listed by name as an Assault Weapon. By your own words the lower receiver does not meet any of these. However, since Senate Bill 23 is so confusing (note the sarcasm), many dealers (and apparently people in the hometown forum) don't understand it and put silly limits on what they will accept. My suggestion is for you to call the buyer's FFL dealer and speak with him about which way he prefers to receive your lower receiver. Some won't deal with them at all, some will only deal with stripped receivers, some only deal with complete rifles, and some will take all as well as completed receivers. Is import a completed receiver that is not banned by name legal? Aboslutely. Does that gurantee an FFL dealer will accept it? No it doesn't. My suggestion is to speak with the buyer's FFL dealer and print out a copy of Senate Bill 23 in front of you. |