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Wrong man? They shot the guy pointing a gun at them. Shitty situation all the way around. Yes the wrong man.. They shot a guy that came to his door at 2am with a firearm after they knocked on his door and did not announce themselves as police. I dont by the "they didnt knock loud" crap. they were looking for a suspect accused of shooting a cop..my ass they didnt knock like hell. I dont know about you but when someone pounds on my door at 2am and doesnt announce themselves as police, im coming to the door armed. Love how they then sack the guys house looking for an excuse for their actions..BUT HE HAD POT 
EDIT~ Also notice they did not state the man was acting agressive or pointed the weapon at them..simply answered the dor with a firearm....at 2am...after people were banging on his door.......... |
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They shot a guy pointing a gun at them according to the article I read. If true good shoot...shitty situation. maybe it would have been a good idea to announce but it is still not illegal to knock on a door and doesn't justify a gun in my face no matter what time it occurs.
Rule #4. Know your target and what's beyond. Guy should have tried to ID who was behind the door before coming out guns blazing. All the cop knows is this guy is posing an immenant threat to him. I would expect him to act accordingly. I've had knocks on my door at 2AM by a deputy that didn't announce. It was my neighbor letting me know my head lights were on. I guess I should have pointed a gun in his face for that.  Yea I was armed...concealed behind the door. I didn't see the need to immediatly go guns hot answering it.
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Wrong man? They shot the guy pointing a gun at them. Shitty situation all the way around. Yes the wrong man.. They shot a guy that came to his door at 2am with a firearm after they knocked on his door and did not announce themselves as police. I dont by the "they didnt knock loud" crap. they were looking for a suspect accused of shooting a cop..my ass they didnt knock like hell. I dont know about you but when someone pounds on my door at 2am and doesnt announce themselves as police, im coming to the door armed. Love how they then sack the guys house looking for an excuse for their actions..BUT HE HAD POT
EDIT~ Also notice they did not state the man was acting agressive or pointed the weapon at them..simply answered the dor with a firearm....at 2am...after people were banging on his door.......... |
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That's why I answer the door standing off to the side of it, with my gun in hand (late at night or if I don't recognize the person and they won't go away) up against the wall where the person ringing the bell can't see it. If the door gets forced open, it's not going to knock me down and there's nothing for me to trip over as I backpedal and bring the gun up.
Bad plans by folks on both sides of the door, seems to me. |
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They didn't have a warrant. All he had to do was not answer the door. Who in their right mind opens a door at 2:00 AM with out knowing who or what is out there.  What if they kicked in the door? What after they knocked and without a warrant , I don't think so. Now if they had seen him go into that apartment then yes they could have breached the door. |
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They didn't have a warrant. All he had to do was not answer the door. Who in their right mind opens a door at 2:00 AM with out knowing who or what is out there. What if they kicked in the door? What after they knocked and without a warrant , I don't think so. Now if they had seen him go into that apartment then yes they could have breached the door. I don't know. They shot a man for having a gun after not announcing who they were to begin with. Doesn't sound like they were playing fair to begin with. |
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They didn't have a warrant. All he had to do was not answer the door. Who in their right mind opens a door at 2:00 AM with out knowing who or what is out there. What if they kicked in the door? What after they knocked and without a warrant , I don't think so. Now if they had seen him go into that apartment then yes they could have breached the door. I don't know. They shot a man for having a gun after not announcing who they were to begin with. Doesn't sound like they were playing fair to begin with. If and I did say IF . He came out that door pointing a gun . Then he got what he had coming. If he wasn't going to shoot someone then he shouldn't have been pointing his gun at anyone. Fact is that whole story is just what the media likes to do. Just more guns are bad shit ! From the sounds of it the guy was dealing drugs. You don't suppose he was on drugs too do ya? You know what they say 3 strikes and your out ! Well hes out . 
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Article references a witness so until we hear otherwise I guess we have to take the police's word for it that he was 'pointing' the gun at them as opposed to just having a gun. While I wouldn't open the door at 2am without knowing exactly who is out there I'm not this guy and I don't know his friends or schedule.
Not saying it's a bad shoot but I'm not a fan of cops showing up unannounced (at the wrong house, btw) and shooting someone on their property. |
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Wrong house, wrong man, was there a deviation from established written Agency procedure to not announce in the absence of a warrant? could the seach of the housel be thrown out as fruits of the poisionous tree?
All of us arm chair quarterbacks and livingroom commandos will be watching for the outcome of this. My bet is that the Lake County SO will be paying $ to his family. Warning: the following rant is brought to you by the smart ass in me. Someone should start a thread on how to properly answer the door at various times of the day so as to not be shot by the visiting party. I would like to hear all the possible variations. I bet we could even get diagrams. Smart ass now turned off. As a tax payer I have no problem with Law Enforcement helping keep the courts and jail system cost down. A dead suspect gathers no more criminal charges. |
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"It was the middle of the night, so they felt it'd be more tactically advantageous to just knock on the door and that's what we did," Herrell said. " REALLY I'm mean REALLY. In their brains they thought a murder suspect RUNNING from the police would just answer the door if they didn't tell him it was the police. Thought process here ??
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Things that make you go hmmmmmmm .... LEO typically stand to the side of a door instead of directly in front of it. Were the deputies in Uniform? Did they have sidearms drawn? There's a front window next to the front door as well as an exterior light, if the deputies were in plain clothes why did this guy open the door to strangers at 01:30am? If the deputies were in uniform did he really point the gun or did a deputy jump the shark? So many questions so few answers ..... |
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They saw the bike, why the hell didn't they call in more personnel to secure the area? Then do a methodical search. Wrong apartment? The huge wrongful death settlement check from the soon to come civil suit should be paid out of the LE pension fund. That would probably reduce the incidence of these stupid mistakes. Taxpayers are sick and tired of paying for these stupid tragic fuk ups.
Flame suit on. |
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I'm sorry, when I get a knock on the door at 2am I'm answering it with a weapon in hand. I may have it behind my back and out of sight, but it's there.
I did fix the problem of not being able to see out the door however, I installed a surveillance system so I can see who it is before I get to the door. |
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It's really just another instance of the same problem.
A person is dead because the police shot them. The only reason they were involved with the police is the cops showed up at their home. Again. Not the culmination of an investigation of the dead guy but rather someone unfortunate enough to live near where the police are investigating. I cannot help but think if the police's "oops my bad" immunity was taken away and they had to endure something like what Zimmerman is going through for wrong addresses we'd start seeing this crap stop. |
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The article says no where that he pointed a gun at them. It says he came out with a gun. Hell, it could have been holstered for all we know as it doesn't say otherwise. I'm sure the report will be worded much better and they'll be walking. Believe what you want. I'm inclined to believe he pointed the gun at someone. I also fail to see a loss to the community. 
Deputies said Andrew Scott, 26, pointed the gun at them during their search. One of the deputies then opened fire, killing Scott. http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/7/16/deputies_say_they_di.html |
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“When you put yourselves in the deputies' shoes, they are going to the apartment where they believe that person is at, they were there to pick up a dangerous individual who was possibly armed, the next they know the door opens and they are looking at the barrel of a gun," Lt. Herrell said.
Drugs and other paraphernalia were found during a search of Scott's apartment. The victim has a criminal history of drug-related arrests, the sheriff's office said. Neighbors told News 13 Scott lived with his girlfriend and was a delivery driver at Hungry Howie's Seems like an outstanding citizen to me. 
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Put myself in the deputy's shoes and refuse to ever consider the perspective of the resident.
This is as big a philosophical gap as liberal vs conservative. Who do the police work for? What is their job? The deaths of people who are only interacting with the police BECAUSE THE COPS ARE AT THE DOOR AT THE MOMENT needs to fucking stop. Stop now. Never start again. I no longer care why or how reasonable it SEEMS to Mr Deputy. He was not drafted, he chose this line of work and not one part of the job society hired him to do is to be lord and commander of us in our own homes. If he decides that he can't do his job with our rights intact, he's free to find other work elsewhere. Try to bear in mind what the 4th amendment says and if you excuse this you are also condoning anything the TSA is up to because you've decided that you agree with that living constitution thing. Odd that so many staunch 2nd amendment folks are perfectly willing to abdicate their rights protected by the other nine in the bill of rights for a uniform, badge and yet another lame excuse. |
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The article says no where that he pointed a gun at them. It says he came out with a gun. Hell, it could have been holstered for all we know as it doesn't say otherwise. I'm sure the report will be worded much better and they'll be walking. Believe what you want. I'm inclined to believe he pointed the gun at someone. I also fail to see a loss to the community.
Deputies said Andrew Scott, 26, pointed the gun at them during their search. One of the deputies then opened fire, killing Scott. http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/7/16/deputies_say_they_di.html Even that article says 3 times he was armed and still isn't clear if he actually pointed a gun at anyone. Yeah, the caption says he did and they make mention of looking down a barrel but I'm thinking this is intentionally vague for a reason. Remember, never talk to the cops without a lawyer. He'll tell you exactly what to say and how to say it
I'm glad to see Arfcom still playing judge, jury, and executioner though.
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Where was his rights violated exactly? The deputy knocked on the fricken wrong door and got a barrel in the face. You do NOT have the right to put a gun in anybody's face that is not threatening a life.
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Put myself in the deputy's shoes and refuse to ever consider the perspective of the resident. This is as big a philosophical gap as liberal vs conservative. Who do the police work for? What is their job? The deaths of people who are only interacting with the police BECAUSE THE COPS ARE AT THE DOOR AT THE MOMENT needs to fucking stop. Stop now. Never start again. I no longer care why or how reasonable it SEEMS to Mr Deputy. He was not drafted, he chose this line of work and not one part of the job society hired him to do is to be lord and commander of us in our own homes. If he decides that he can't do his job with our rights intact, he's free to find other work elsewhere. Try to bear in mind what the 4th amendment says and if you excuse this you are also condoning anything the TSA is up to because you've decided that you agree with that living constitution thing. Odd that so many staunch 2nd amendment folks are perfectly willing to abdicate their rights protected by the other nine in the bill of rights for a uniform, badge and yet another lame excuse. |
| For your reading pleasure: http://reason.com/archives/2011/04/26/the-war-on-cops-that-isnt |
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Put myself in the deputy's shoes and refuse to ever consider the perspective of the resident. This is as big a philosophical gap as liberal vs conservative. Who do the police work for? What is their job? The deaths of people who are only interacting with the police BECAUSE THE COPS ARE AT THE DOOR AT THE MOMENT needs to fucking stop. Stop now. Never start again. I no longer care why or how reasonable it SEEMS to Mr Deputy. He was not drafted, he chose this line of work and not one part of the job society hired him to do is to be lord and commander of us in our own homes. If he decides that he can't do his job with our rights intact, he's free to find other work elsewhere. Try to bear in mind what the 4th amendment says and if you excuse this you are also condoning anything the TSA is up to because you've decided that you agree with that living constitution thing. Odd that so many staunch 2nd amendment folks are perfectly willing to abdicate their rights protected by the other nine in the bill of rights for a uniform, badge and yet another lame excuse. It is NOT lawful under Florida law to point a firearm at a person w/o justification. Pointing a firearm at a person must be justified, otherwise it is an AGGRAVATED ASSAULT. A person at your door after hours, absent additional facts and/or circumstances, does not justify ANY use of force... period. It's that cut and dry... this case will hinge on the simple fact of whether or not the deceased pointed his firearm at the deputies and was there a lawful reason to have done so. Knocking on the door, stand alone, will not cut it... ever. |
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Put myself in the deputy's shoes and refuse to ever consider the perspective of the resident. This is as big a philosophical gap as liberal vs conservative. Who do the police work for? What is their job? The deaths of people who are only interacting with the police BECAUSE THE COPS ARE AT THE DOOR AT THE MOMENT needs to fucking stop. Stop now. Never start again. I no longer care why or how reasonable it SEEMS to Mr Deputy. He was not drafted, he chose this line of work and not one part of the job society hired him to do is to be lord and commander of us in our own homes. If he decides that he can't do his job with our rights intact, he's free to find other work elsewhere. Try to bear in mind what the 4th amendment says and if you excuse this you are also condoning anything the TSA is up to because you've decided that you agree with that living constitution thing. Odd that so many staunch 2nd amendment folks are perfectly willing to abdicate their rights protected by the other nine in the bill of rights for a uniform, badge and yet another lame excuse. It is NOT lawful under Florida law to point a firearm at a person w/o justification. Pointing a firearm at a person must be justified, otherwise it is an AGGRAVATED ASSAULT. A person at your door after hours, absent additional facts and/or circumstances, does not justify ANY use of force... period. It's that cut and dry... this case will hinge on the simple fact of whether or not the deceased pointed his firearm at the deputies and was there a lawful reason to have done so. Knocking on the door, stand alone, will not cut it... ever. That goes for both parties... who pointed their gun at who first? Until its clarified if Brown actually pointed the gun at the cops, or if the deputies approached the suspected residence in the same manner,or even in the low and ready? There's really not enough published information to decide. There are loose reports with the Sheriff's Office claiming that the door was openned with the gun pointed at them, but not specifically quoted or found in official responses. |
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Put myself in the deputy's shoes and refuse to ever consider the perspective of the resident. This is as big a philosophical gap as liberal vs conservative. Who do the police work for? What is their job? The deaths of people who are only interacting with the police BECAUSE THE COPS ARE AT THE DOOR AT THE MOMENT needs to fucking stop. Stop now. Never start again. I no longer care why or how reasonable it SEEMS to Mr Deputy. He was not drafted, he chose this line of work and not one part of the job society hired him to do is to be lord and commander of us in our own homes. If he decides that he can't do his job with our rights intact, he's free to find other work elsewhere. Try to bear in mind what the 4th amendment says and if you excuse this you are also condoning anything the TSA is up to because you've decided that you agree with that living constitution thing. Odd that so many staunch 2nd amendment folks are perfectly willing to abdicate their rights protected by the other nine in the bill of rights for a uniform, badge and yet another lame excuse. It is NOT lawful under Florida law to point a firearm at a person w/o justification. Pointing a firearm at a person must be justified, otherwise it is an AGGRAVATED ASSAULT. A person at your door after hours, absent additional facts and/or circumstances, does not justify ANY use of force... period. It's that cut and dry... this case will hinge on the simple fact of whether or not the deceased pointed his firearm at the deputies and was there a lawful reason to have done so. Knocking on the door, stand alone, will not cut it... ever. That goes for both parties... who pointed their gun at who first? Until its clarified if Brown actually pointed the gun at the cops, or if the deputies approached the suspected residence in the same manner,or even in the low and ready? There's really not enough published information to decide. There are loose reports with the Sheriff's Office claiming that the door was openned with the gun pointed at them, but not specifically quoted or found in official responses. Correct to a point... as cops, we can't just point guns at folks w/o a justifiable reason. At my agency EVERY TIME we point a weapon at a person, outside of it being in connection with a SWAT Operation, we MUST complete a Use of Force Report. Under the LIMITED information available (that the Apt was approached due to the suspect's MC being parked outside and a fair and reasonable belief he may be in the Apt) it would be justified to have weapons up and ready covering windows and doors upon approach and until such time contact was made. There are other clearly acceptable and justifiable reasons for LEO to have weapons out and covering people, such as FELONY TRAFFIC STOPS. Therefore, in this case, this is NOT an issue of "who pointed at who first". LE had a legitimate reason to have weapons up and covering the door... that fact does not appear to be in dispute. You are correct in it being necessary to officially conclude the deceased DID IN FACT answer the door with weapon pointed at officers... see my last sentence of my post. I have full faith and confidence that FDLE will provide us with that answer. |
| Unfortunately the only evidence of whether or not the victim pointed a gun at the officers is the their testimony. I wonder which direction that will go? As has been said numerous times in this thread, 2 AM I get a knock on my door you bet your ass I've got a locked and loaded gun in my hand. No uniform, no announcement of who they are. Fail all around on the cops part. |