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Posted: 4/9/2003 4:05:40 PM EDT
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OK, I will recieve the DSA scope mount sometime soon (a week or so) and I am considering which optic to try. 1) I have in my hand an Aimpoint CompM-2x 2 MOA in an ARMs Comp M68 mount. I figure this should fit the rail. 2) I have a Trijicon ACOG NSN1240 6x fixed scope on a standard Trijicon mount. 3) I have a Trijicon Reflex red dot on an AR15 carry handle mount (would have to get a new mount. 4) I have a Tasco SS 10x42 scope on ARMs quick release rings. Is anyone familiar with the DSA mount and any of these optics? What would be ideal is cowitness of the irons. Or irons below the main optic. Or maybe the Tasco for long range and a red dot next to the Tasco for fast target shooting. I don't know. Should I expect anything better than 2 MOA with the rifle in any case? If not, the 6x would probably be more than adequate magnification. Let me know what you guys have tried. |
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I'm watching this thread with great interest as I'm there with you. The rifle I bought has the DSA zero movement optics mount and I have been looking for an optic for use at least part of the time. I've toyed with most of the same choices as you have presented including an EOTECH. I've also considered a U.S. Optics SN-4 that might find a new home moving from an AR to the FAL, and have even considered an ELCAN. Most mounts seem pretty high (especially the ELCAN). I have no experience with it or the EOTECH. Good luck, I didn't mean to hijack your thread, hopefully we'll both find out together. Thanks, BT |
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Hey Para, No problem man. Right now I'm thinking the Reflex is the simplest and lowest of the three. If I get the ARMs mount it would maybe be low enough to cowitness the standard iron sights. Right now I'm still awaiting the DSA mount. At least I know it was in stock. I gotta hand it to DSA. I also ordered some of the 30 round magazines and they emailed me saying they were backordered - what did I want to do? So I called and they were very good on the phone. Time will tell. |
I have a couple friends who have optics on their FALS. One has an Aimpont on a DSA scope mount, the other has a Reflex II, not sure of mount, on an ARMS topcover mount. I know the Aimpoint doesn't cowitness, and I don't think the Reflex does either. I have used a Holosight II on my DSA. It also didn't cowitness. The FAL just isn't as friendly in this regard as a mousegun. A better place to post this would be on the Fal files. A lot more FAL fanatics there If a cowitness sight system exists, they would probably know.I have also used an ELCAN and a 1-4X Luepold on my DSA. I have gone full circle back to iron sights. Oh yeah! Accuracy. I was able to routinely shoot 2-3 inch 100 yd groups with my ELCAN. I can do just about that well with the irons. |
| After doing a bit more reading and hearing a couple more opinions, I think I've scratched the ELCAN from the list. Maybe the best we can do instead of co-witnessing is see-through mounts so we can use the irons. I've seen a couple of variations there that might work. The ACOG mounts normally let you "peep" through to see the sights and some of the rings I've seen have heights up to a ridiculous extreme which would allow irons. I had a Reflex II that I sold because I didn't like the triangle washout in bright lights, but otherwise thought it was a good piece of gear. I may replace it with the EOTech and call it good even though as far as I know they don't have a mount option that would allow co-witnessing. |
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You can not cowitness iron sights through a scope with any kind of magnification, but you can get a scope on the same sight plane as the iron sights so you can keep your same cheek well on the stock... You may want to look for a thread that I started about a month or so ago about mounting a scope as low as you can. I will try to post a link later. The Trijicon Reflex is not a red dot scope, the dot is amber in color...I have used both the Reflex I and II and did not care for either of them...You will not be able to co-witness with the FAL iron sights with the Reflex, it sits up too high... The Aimpoint is a much better sight as compared to the Trijicon, you can adjust the brightness of the red dot, the glass is clear (not tinted blue like the Reflex) this helps in hours of darkness or reduced light and the dot on the Aimpoint does not "wash out" like the dot on the Reflex units do....If you take out the spacers on the ARMS mount you should be able to cowitness this sight with the FAL iron sights...I have seen the Aimpoint on the DSA mount with the ARMS mount and was able to cowitness the iron sights.... All the Trijicon ACOGS that I have seen (except for the compact ACOGs) have sat too much too high for my tastes, even with the GRSC mount...I love ACOGs, but with the TA01 series there is not enough eye relief and smacks the shooter every shot (I know this from experience) The TA11 series has enough eye relief but is big, bulky, heavy, and sits very high on the mount... I'm no familiar with the 6x ACOG, unless you are talking about the new 5.5x ACOG, they you would have the same problems as the TA11 ACOGs.. My opinion is that the Tasco 10x42 limits your use of the FAL unless your intent is to use it as some sort of "designated marksman" type rifle...Also the FAL is know as a scope killer, Tasco's (even the new super snipers) are not known to be the most durable scope in the world...for a standard scope you may want to consider a lower power Leupold or Burris scope...Something in the line of a 2x-7x, 1.5x-5x, 3x-9x, with nothing bigger than a 40mm objective lense...Just my .02 Hope this was the info you were looking for |
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Guys, this i s all good info. USMC, yeah, I thought the Tasco was not a good fit. As to durability, I have had 3 Tasco products in my life. A World Class Plus that was defective out the door. Cost me money to use the warranty to get it fixed. Never mind how long it took me to verify to myself that the point of impact was in fact moving. I also had a PDP Tasco red dot. It also had a moving point of impact and again I had to pony up cash to use the warranty. Both sit in my garage unmounted as I no longer respect Tasco products. The Super Sniper is supposed to me manufactured by a better group but if the recoil on a FAL is hard on scopes I won't test it. In fact, I really doubt I will mount any magnification. On t he ACOG - oops. It is 4x. Typo. I think it sits too high. I also am not sure if the Aimpoiunt 2x will fit without the spacer. The front end is larger than a standard Aimpoint. We will see when the DSA mount arrives. I'll try em all and see what lines up best. Maybe I'll get a standard 1x Aimpoint for it. great, another optic in the house. 
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jimmy, If you have the 4x ACOG it's the TA01 or the TA01NSN (the NSN model has the iron back up sights on top) both of these ACOGS are awesome pieces of equipment, especially if you mount them on an AR15...I've got a couple of ACOGs and can't say enough good things about them... My experience with the 4x ACOGs (the TA01 series) on the FAL is that they do NOT offer enough eye relief for the recoil of the .308 and everytime the rifle recoils you get reminded of this fact ;) The TA11 ACOG is the large 3.5x scope and has generous eye relief for the FAL, but the problem with both of these full sized ACOGs is that they sit up too high... I think it's the M68 ARMS mount that a friend of mine had on his FAL (with no spacers) and the Aimpoint ML2 fit perfectly on the rifle and you were able to cowitness...If you have the 2x ML2 this would also make a great set up...It would give you a little more magnification, you could mount the Aimpoint far forward on the rail, which would give you great prefial vision....And if you needed to use the iron sights all you have to do is move the throw lever and take the Aimpoint off the rifle....Just my .02 When the FAL FILES are back up and running I'll post the link to the low mount scope set up for you, this may be another option you may want to check out.... |
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USMCo3, Yes, I have the NSN version. I really like it on an AR. I will take your word for the recoil difference on the FAL. I already noticed that.  When the mount arrives I am going to try both the Reflex and the Aimpoint. I read where the Reflex isn't a true red dot but I will see what it is like mounted down low on an ARMs 15 quick release. I know I'm not going into combat so if this site is a bit less usable at dusk it isn't the end of the world for me. But I'll try them both and post the results here. I expect the DSA mount and ARMs 15 early next week so I'll try when I can. Jim |
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Hey, great photo pthfindr, But it makes me nervous. I have the 2x Aimpoint, and I might need to raise it some to clear the (damn it I am tired, what is the name of the far end of an optic?). it is larger than the 1x. Come on DSA. Send my mount so I can find out what fits.  |
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A good scope for the FAL is the russian VOMZ 8x56. All the threads I read at the FAL files reported good exeriances with this scope. I mounted one on my SA58 with the standard barrel and it works great. I've got about 300 rounds on the scope and it hasn't hurt it. Some on the FAL files have over 1500 rounds on them without problems. Just a thought instead of going with the Tasco SS. |
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cliffy, I have also heard field of view is poor. The only time I mounted this was on an M1A and frankly field of view wasn't an issue as I never achieved a proper cheekweld and other assorted problems. Don't ask. Net result is I was screwing around with trying to get it to WORK but didn't notice how usable the scope was. I'll let ya know. Damn, I thought the scope mount rail might come today (ordered a week ago from DSA) and UPS just left. Called UPS and they shipped FEDEX. Great. Per tracking, it arrived in Phoenix (delivery station for my house) on the 12th. It is scheduled for delivery on the 16th. WTF? |
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Thanks Jimmy. I've been reading your posts over in the optics section. I'm not positive some of the guys posting there grasp the idea of long eye relief scopes. The field of view in the optic isn't such a big issue. You've got a huge field of view by keeping both eyes open and NOT having a lense right in front of you. You are looking past the scope, not through it. Having the scope 9 inches from your face makes this work. I looked up the field of view numbers for both Burris and Leupold. They are 15' and 22' respecively. Compare that to 75' for a fixed 2.5 power compact scope. It makes the scout scopes look pretty bad for FOV but misses the point. You don't want to have the magnified section dominating your vision. Maybe I'm missing something. I think I need to look at one of these in person. Maybe the FOV really is terrible on the Aimpoint. I think a worse problem on a forward mounted scope would be a really finicky eye relief. BTW, did you try a stock pad on the M1A? I have the Burris mounted on mine and find I have to raise my head from the stock to use it but a good stock pad would fix that. |
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I am also reading these posts with great interest. Just got my FAL and bought a DSA scope mount as well. I'm planning on putting a Burris compact scope, mounting it with Leupold low rise rings. Burris Compacts have pretty good eye relief, so I'm hoping recoil won't be a problem. Also, with low mount rings scope will stay low and am hoping I will be able to get a good cheek weld. Of course, won't be able to co-witness iron sights. Would be interested in learning if anyone else has a similar set up and how it has worked for them. Am a little nervous since I purchasing everything mail order and just trusting that it will all come together. |
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The StG 58 buttstock (as pictured on the carbine above) has a fairly high comb, so much so that on my rifle I don't need a cheek rest to get a good sight picture using a Leupold 3x9 on medium Leupold QD rings. OTOH, with Metric sights the cheek whack from the StG stock is painful. Even with taller L1A1 sights it is difficult to cowitness the irons against an optic, in my experience. Fortunately, the scope setup returns to zero closely enough for my use, so I just pop off the scope when I want to. BTW, I'm using a MMC FAL scope mount, which they no longer make. It's a little lower than the DSA mount I have used. |
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OK, the mount arrived today. The Trijicon ACOG was not a good fit as it seemed I had to hold my head off the stock and too close to the scope. Cancel that. I do not yet have the mount for the Relfex so haven't tried it. The Tasco is now on an AR15 set up for accuracy and I decided not to subject it to the recoil of a FAL. Tried the Aimpoint CompM2x and it looks good. Good cheekweld and eye relief. Will know tomorrow at the range. |
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I'll post pics when my membership here starts. Until then, I went to the range today. Not happy. I think the scope is OK, but I am fighting cycling problems and stovepipes. The only setting that almost works is 1. Does not make me happy. I am also not clear that I am getting the accuracy I think I should. I did only have one type of ammo today, and I was distracted fighting the reliability issues, but at 50 yards (yes, 50) groups weren't that impressive. I didn't get time to take it further out as I was trying to debug the cycle issues. Overall, I think the CompML2x is a good fit for the FAL. But.... What level of accuracy do most of you get with a FAL carbine? |
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Jimmy, Here is an idea for you, check out the pics and the info, get's the scope real low: www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61903&highlight=scope |
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A couple issues with the DSA mount. I needed high rings for a conventional scope to clear the rear sight. You can also remove the rear sight if you are using low rings to get around this. I never had any reliability issues with mine (SA58 carbine), but ejecting brass bounces off the top of the ejection port area, marring the finish of the mount. A friend has also experienced this with various FAL scope mounts (Williams and ARMs). I think he did experience some ejection problems with his, can't remember which one:( I can shoot pretty close to one inch groups at 50 yards with my DSA using milsurp from a bench. Groups open up to 2-3+ inchs at 100. I didn't do a heck of a lot better with the ELCAN, if any. I had occasion to shoot my Colt HBAR at 100 yds yesterday with iron sights and South African surplus. 5 shot groups were also in the 2-3 inch range, with the best 3 shots going under an inch. About the best I can shoot with irons... |
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I just installed a DSA mount on my para and I might have a clue as to your reliability issues. I discovered that my bolt carrier didn't move freely. Mine was really bad. I had to mill the top of the bolt carrier. Your may not be as bad but you may find that the top hump of the carrier is contacting the new top cover. That would account for the types of failures you are describing. E-mail me at [email protected] and I'll give you my phone number if you want to discuss how to do this in detail. |
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Well, I think the rifle might be OK now. Yesterday I shot 120 rounds with the gas on 4. I thought it was on 1, and was unhappy. When I got home and discovered my error, I got a lot happier. The 60 rounds of Hirt were troublesome. I would need to adjust the gas for this ammo. The 60 rounds of Port were perfect. I am now looking to buy some 1000s of this ammo. Next range trip I will focus more on t he sighting system and accuracy. Let ya know. |
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