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Posted: 11/11/2007 12:18:00 PM EDT
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Hey all. I just picked up a M1A with some match grade components (M21 clone). I am now looking into optics. I haven't done much long range shooting and don't want to blow the bank on optics out the gate. I want to be able to use the scope from close up distances ~100 yards out to about ~500+ yards. I know the Super Sniper is a fixed optic so that has me a little worried but I haven't really heard much about the ART scope (other than it's the original M21 scope). I also really like the warranty that Leupold offers but I don't know if I'm ready to drop $1k on optics yet... ($500 maybe). I am open to any and all constructive comments. Thanks! Currently I am looking at the Leatherwood ART www.leatherwoodoptics.com/index-leatherwood.html http://www.hi-luxoptics.com/lftsde1-cc.jpg and the Super Sniper www.swfa.com/c-231-super-sniper-rifle-scopes.aspx http://www.swfa.com/images/product/medium/SS10X42M.jpg |
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This is the one I have for my M1A, but I don't think it will carry you out to 500 for precision shooting www.swfa.com/pc-5650-1108-burris-3-9x40-fullfield-ii-tactical-rifle-scope.aspx |
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That's a very tough, personal decision. I wanted something that allowed me the flexibility of close-up shooting but had some decent range. My biggest desire was that it wasn't too big and heavy and didn't require me to modify my cheekrest to get it to work right. I settled on a middle-of-road power scope and am very happy with it. Leupold MR/T. Like I said, it's light enough to not add too much weight, small enough that with low-mount rings I can still use the original cheekweld, and is useful at closer distances. Here's a pic: 
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You don't see any issues with the fixed power? |
No, not really. Variables are fine too. It all depends on how much magnification you need or are used to. |
I would suggest to take a look at the Zeiss Conquest series as well, they are nice scopes that are in the 5 to 6 hundred dollar price range. This is a 1.8-5.5x38 on my 10/22, this scope has about 4 inches of eye relief which stays constant throughout the power range. The windage and elevation are adjustable by hand, target knobs are available on some models in this lineup.
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i like the leatherwood art. something of the traditionalist in me. plus for under 300 bucks its a great deal. i have looked threw both, they both were fine. i just went in thinking i was going create a M21 clone so it was letherwood Ronald edit for link form midway. www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=177741&t=11082005 285 bucks, its a steal |
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Anyone heard of these? www.snipercentral.com/menace45.htm www.falconoptics.com/ http://falconoptics.com/images/menace4.5-18x56b.jpg http://falconoptics.com/images/menace4-14x44FFP.jpg What kind of range delta should be expected between the two? Can an M1A use a 18x optic? |
Faced with the same requirements I have gone with the EOTech 552.XR308 and an EOTech 4X magnifier on a flip to the side mount. Everything mounts on the top of a TROY MCS flat top. The 4X FTS magnifier will arrive late this week. |
Hmm, that scope looks pretty promising, let us know if you pick one up... |
Picking a scope on magnification alone is a mistake. The reticle, the average size of the targets you will be shooting, the optics of course, the reliability of return to zero, etc all figure into the purchase of the scope within the determined budget. With a variable and mildot reticle, the maximum magnification must be used to determine the distance with the mildot. You can "undershoot" with too much magnification. If a rifle is only capable of two in groups at 100 yds and that is what you will be shooting most of the time, then an 18x is way too much and unnecessary. Obviously a low power is much better for a quick up close shot. If you are going to be sitting at a bench, a fixed higher power is OK but not good for the quick up close shot. On two different bolts, I have a 3x12 Burris XTR, on another I have a Leupold 4x12 Milsot. Both have adjustable objectives. I shoot those under many different conditions on many different targtets. Both shoot sub MOA. I also have a SA NM M1A that I once scoped with a 6x Leupold. I had target turrets on it. It was deadly on metal rams at 500 meters. I only get a 8" to 10" group at 500 meters with that rifle so a higher power really wasn't necessary. But for overall usage, for quick up close shots to longer distances, the old 3x-9x variable is hard to beat. For a mostly bench rifle at fixed distances, a fixed power is OK, the power depending on the size of the targets, distances, and the accuracy of the rifle. |
  While it may not be a tactical or military scope, a decent all around scope for a reasonable price seems to be the Nikon Team Primos 3X9X40mm with the BDC reticle. This is actually one of Nikon's Monarch series of scopes with a different label. I haven't had enough time or rounds on it to do a comprehensive report but i did fire 80 +/- rounds on it this past weekend and it held zero fine with the Leupold QRW rings. BDC Reticle:   Nikon's BDC reticle "For 2006 Nikon has announced a new reticle designed to be used in conjunction with its popular laser rangefinders to provide hunters with an easy-to-use system for determining proper long-range shot placement on animals. The new Nikon BDC (Bullet Drop Compensating) is actually a trajectory-compensating reticle designed and calibrated to provide fast, simple aiming points for various shot distances. This unique system integrates a series of small “ballistic circles”—each subtending 2” @ 100 yards—allowing unimpeded lines of sight to even small targets. Nikon’s BDC is designed to be used with most standard centerfire cartridges with typical bullet weights, providing aiming points out to 500 yards, with a 100-yard sight-in. With Magnum cartridges and typical bullet weights, the same scopes with BDC reticles offer aiming points out to 600 yards, with a 200-yard sight-in. After sighting-in the crosshair at 100 or 200 yards with the highest magnification, determine the distance to the target and use the appropriate ballistic circle. Verify the aiming points by shooting at actual, measured distances." Nikon's "Team Primos" 3x9x40 is in fact one of their Monarch series scopes. Aside from Nikon's press release linked below which basically says it is a Monarch I looked at the "standard" Monarch (standard reticle) and the Team Primos 3x9x40 with BDC at Bass Pro Shops side by side and looked at their spec sheets. The specs are exactly the same and they are identical except for the reticles and logos on the turret cap and at the front objective. Nikon Team Primos Press release " The new Team Primos Riflescope features the same high level of durability and quality found in Nikon’s flagship Monarch Riflescope... " The Nikon Monarch series (different from the Monarch GOLD and UCC series which are higher end still) appears to be in a similar class as the Burris Fullfield II and Bushnell 3200 Elites. I looked at all three for over an hour at Bass Pro Shops on their blank rifle stocks. While I did not fire any rifles with them the Nikon to me had superior glass, better light transmission and a much better reticle than the latter two. This particular scope is also superior to Nikon's own 3X9X40 Buckmaster which was over an inch longer and noticeably heavier (my M1a Scout is already heavy enough). It is also much better than their very entry-level Prostaff series (has no quick focus eyepiece and lower light transmission among other weaknesses). Specifications: Weight 13 oz. Tube Diameter 1 in (25.4mm) Magnification (Actual) 3x-9x Exit Pupil 4.4mm Length 12.3" Objective Diameter (mm) 40 Reticle BDC Adj. Graduation 1/4 MOA (1-click) Max. Internal Adj. 55 MOA Parallax Setting (yds.) 100 Eye Relief (in.) 3.7-3.6 FOV@100 yds. (ft.) 33.8-11.3 Objective O.D. (mm/in) 47.3/1.86 Eyepiece O.D. (mm/in) 41/1.61 Features: - Patented BDC reticle for confidence-building long range shot placement and all-round hunting performance - Guaranteed Waterproof/Fogproof/Shockproof Performance - Bright, Sharp Ultra Clearcoat Optical System for 95% Light Transmission - Fully Multicoated Lenses - Handturn 1/4-MOA click reticle adjustments - Quick Focus Eyepiece Rugged, one-piece main body tube construction As with the entire Nikon riflescope family, the new Team Primos 3-9x40 carries Nikon’s Lifetime warranty and is guaranteed waterproof and fogproof. Its $299 at Bass Pro Shops (can you spell overpriced?) but I got it on ebay brand new from a commercial vendor for $219. SWFA also has it for $218.95 (stock #8435). I saw a private seller that had it on ebay for as little as $180. |
How do you like your Burris XTR? I am looking in one for my bench/long range rifle. Probably the 3x12. |
Doh, I was just about to order the Buckmaster. www.swfa.com/pc-1892-220-nikon-45-14x40-buckmaster-riflescope.aspx What rings are those in what height? |
I've got a Savage Tactical 308 that the XTR is moounted on. It also has the illuminated reticle on it. It is the best soope as far as optics I've ever had. I've used Leupolds for years on my main rifles, both hunting, varminting, and for whatever rifles. The optics are better than my best Leupold VXIII. I've been waiting for a set of bases for it for over 6 months now. I have Warne bases on it now with the Burris XTR rings. I've put about 80 rounds down range since putting the scope on the rifle. Once I got it zeroed, it wasn't much fun to shoot steel with. I was hitting the chicken at 500 meters with almost every shot. after getting it set.  I'd say the Burris XTR is one hell of a scope in the 3x12 Illuminated Milldot. I'm thinking about getting another one.  But I'd still say it is too much scope to put on my M1A NM rifle. |
They only list retail and SWFA... where's thier price? EDIT: Duhh... now I get it... |
The scope mount is an ARMS#18 - one of the lowest. The rings are the Leupold QRW MEDIUM. The Low rings were too low as the back of the scope was hitting the rear iron sight - yes I tried them and had to send them back. Perhaps on an SEI or Sadlak sope mount one could use Low rings since those mounts I believe sit a little higher than an ARMS #18.... not sure though. |
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I really want to thank everyone that participated in this thread. I’ve got the optics on the way. * Nikon 4.5-14x40 Buckmaster Riflescope - www.swfa.com/pc-1892-220-nikon-45-14x40-buckmaster-riflescope.aspx * Leupold QRW 1" Rings - www.swfa.com/pc-2925-417-leupold-qrw-1-rings.aspx * Butler Creek Lens Caps - www.swfa.com/p-7572-butler-creek-lens-caps.aspx Last I think I need a comfortable carry sling... Any suggestions? |
Thanks for the review. I am not putting this on my M1A. this is for the Savage 10fp of my own. I had asked earlier in the precision rifle forum and no one responded so when I saw that you had one I was curious. Sounds good to me. DigglerD, For the optics on an M1A you did just fine sir. Please post up a range report for them. |
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