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Posted: 8/21/2002 5:31:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2002 5:43:45 PM EDT by usmc0311]
Forgings,in the past it was the best way to get the imperfections out of metal was to heat and to beat the metal to remove those imperfections in the steel.

Castings,castings of the past were molded into a sand cast a very porus operation and that the casts had many imperfections.Your engine block is still done in this fashion albeit though it is Iron not steel.

Investment castings are a pretty new thing that they do to the metal now,what they do is a form of forging it really is,they spin the metal very fast when it is really hot to remove the imperfections in the metal then it is poured into the mold.

That is the only diffrence in casting and forging.

The next process is the Machining and Hardening process and all the M14 type reciever are done the same poured,machined and then hardened and wallah a reciever.

The problem with forged vs casted reciever is the hardening process if its not hardened right it does not matter whether its forged or cast its gonna be soft.

Billet recievers are machined from hardened blocks of the same 8620 steel that all M14's are they are just harder when they start the process and guess what they were of a spun steel block just like the Investment casted reciever.

If you ask where i found this information out at is my grandfather and my uncle worked at US steel for a combined 70 years.My uncle still works for them though its now under a new name.

So i dont really believe it make a diffrence anymore whether the reciever is forged,casted or billet as long as their hardned and machined to proper specs.

Just be careful of what someone try's to sell you,of course companies are gonna say mine,mine mine but do your home work.
Link Posted: 8/21/2002 6:09:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2002 6:12:22 PM EDT by DevilsAdvocate]
As for ARs and the like...

A forging involves taking a "plug" or a "slug" of the metal you want to use for the final product and smashing it into shape between two dies (molds). Usually, for the harder materials, the "slug" is heated to red-hot in order for it to flow into the form better. Most of the crankshafts in your cars' engines are made this way, along with some of your more expensive, hi-performace pistons. Sometimes it takes 3 or 4 molds to make the part. Parts are then machined from there. This involves the removal of a lot of 'flashing', with thick parts needing removal in most cases. A "true" forged part is the strongest, as the metal is forced (to a point) to 'flow' into the final shape. The crystalline structure of the metal is kept intact.

Most all of the stuff I have seen has been "investment cast" which is a VERY OLD process. Parts are made by pouring the molten aluminum into sand-cast forms (kinda oily sand), then they are machined from there.

Usually, to make good investment casts, the mold will spin and enact centrifugal force into the process of making the metal have less voids.

SOME (but not many) of the parts out there are from billet, which is almost as good as a true forging. A billet is basically a slab of metal cut from a sheet or extrusion (very high quality). Every single little detail on the billet part is machined into shape...everything.

Honestly. I think forged parts kick-ass over cast parts any day, at least for aluminum stuff.
Link Posted: 8/21/2002 7:00:16 PM EDT
Why re-invent the wheel to save $20 on a $800 to $1200 rifle?

Each rifle is designed/engineered and tested around a certain manufacturing method. The AR was designed to be forged, the Mini-14 casted, etc. Unless there is a compelling reason to alter the design concept why bother?

Changing a rifle designed around a heavy cast receiver to a stronger forging may allow for a stronger receiver but that just means that something else is the weak link in the chain.

Don't try to change the nature of a weapon with our careful cause.
Link Posted: 8/22/2002 7:00:58 AM EDT
"Cast vs Forged the truth."

Since when do Grandpa and Uncle Bill's opinions become "the truth" when it comes to metallurgy? What kind of research did they perform to come up with "the truth"? Are they metallurgists? No flame intended here but to make a statement like that and insist it's the truth for the reason that you gave is presumptuous. It hardly could be counted on as "the truth" with regards to such a complicated science. I will grant you that a properly hardened cast receiver is better than a an improperly hardened forged receiver but all things being equal I'd have to see real evidence to believe that they are the same.
Link Posted: 8/22/2002 7:18:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By usmc0311:

So i dont really believe it make a diffrence anymore whether the reciever is forged,casted or billet as long as their hardned and machined to proper specs.

Just be careful of what someone try's to sell you,of course companies are gonna say mine,mine mine but do your home work.



I think you are right, there is very little difference between a good forged lower and a good cast lower. But, forgings seem to take finishing better, and hold onto finish better because of the smooth surface of the part. The finish, texture of a forging also looks better.

Paul is also right, the difference in cost is minimal why not go $10-20 more for a forged lower, on a $800.00+ weapon?
Link Posted: 8/22/2002 7:33:17 AM EDT
Well, at least where I live, a forged reciever (Olympic) was less expensive than anything else I could find...

So I got a forged reciever....

Of course, I'd hate to think how much my car would cost if it's motor (Chevy aluminum block V8) was forged, not cast....
Link Posted: 8/26/2002 6:45:29 PM EDT

Uhhh, guys I think we got a little off topic here. I believe the author was referring to cast M1A receivers vs forged USGI M14 receivers.

The cast Springfield Armory receivers are very good, but every builder I've ever inquired of stated that the forged USGI receivers are far superior.


You just can't get 'em anymore.

Link Posted: 8/26/2002 8:12:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By operatorerror:

Uhhh, guys I think we got a little off topic here. I believe the author was referring to cast M1A receivers vs forged USGI M14 receivers.

The cast Springfield Armory receivers are very good, but every builder I've ever inquired of stated that the forged USGI receivers are far superior.


You just can't get 'em anymore.




I saw a billet reciever availble in SGN. M-K Specialties is now shipping their new forged M14-A1 (semi) Seemed to me all the bitching about them stopped (so to speak) when they started shipping what apparently is a quality product. I'd like to know because I bought one. It won't be finished for a while because of other things going on right now.
Link Posted: 8/27/2002 2:17:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2002 2:19:34 AM EDT by operatorerror]
Axel,

There's a fresh rumor going around over on Battlerifles.com that the ATF has ruled that the new MKS receivers are to be turned in/confiscated, just like the rewelds.

I hope it's bull. It doesn't seem legit because of the "once a machinegun, always a machinegun" deal. These are new receivers and were never machineguns, ever.

But, ya' never know.

Here's a link you should check.

www.battlerifles.com/viewtopic.php?t=3513&highlight=mk+specialties

Edited to fix link.

Link Posted: 8/27/2002 10:11:56 PM EDT
If that is what they are doing, it looks like they are going for the low hanging fruit. Sounds like this guy purchased multiple recievers.

You know, Homeschoolers have a legal defense association. And they kick ass, too.

I can't think of any gun rights group who will make it their mission to come to my aid if I have legal trouble because of gun laws or heavy-handed enforcement, or god forbid, I actually have to use it. I know that there are litigations going on, and if someone needs to engage the system there are lawyers out there who will help.

But face it, we're on our own. How would beekeepers situation have played out with a six-hundred pound gorilla standing behind him? How many cops will stop doing the "arrest now, let the prosecutor decide what he wants to do " approach when they wonder if they might have to justify it to someone with the means to follow though?

It would be worth a couple hundred a year to me.

I think the time is right. What do you guys think?
Link Posted: 9/2/2002 2:15:38 PM EDT
Springfield uses the ceramic molds for their recievers.

Usmc is right that some people will use molded hardened cast blocks of steel and machine it and sell it as billet,though it is not true billet.

Forgings are the best no matter what.

I think the ATF is out to get MKS and that it does not matter,MKS screwed up by selling rewelded m14 recievers.Now the ATF is out to put them out.

Entreprize arms makes a true billet reciever and i have heard it is good.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 10:29:22 AM EDT
I've read posts of some with problems with out of spec Entreprise Arms receivers. Seems to be about the same frequency as problems with Armscorp receivers. Both companies will stand by their product and make it right, unlike MKS. Chicom receivers are forged and supposed to be of excellent quality, though the rest of the rifle is dodgey. Of course, neither comes with any guarantee of customer satisfaction.
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