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Posted: 8/12/2016 8:32:21 PM EDT
| Now I am sure that this has been answered a 1000 times, but I have poor luck with this search engine. If you Form-1ed a SBR, can you then sell the SBR if you chose to? |
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Yes, no problem.
You can sell it as a SBR, and the tranfer would be via a form 4 to the new owner ($200 tax stamp, long wait for approval). Or, you could write a letter to ATF saying you were going to re-configure the SBR back to non-SBR status by going back to a +16 inch barrel, and then the rifle returns to regular status. It mostly depends on the type of SBR as to which method you'd use. For a modular set up like a AR, there's no real plus to buying a SBR from someone else, compared to just making it yourself via buying a shorty upper. For other rifles, where it's not as modular (such as an AK or HK style), there's a reason to buy a SBR from someone else, as it's somewhat of a hassel to shorten the barrel and have it threaded for muzzel devices. |
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There's zero need to write the ATF. It returns to a "regular rifle" as soon as it's not configured as a short-barreled rifle.
If you ever want to sell it, it can be sold as a lower, or with a 16+" upper, and no NFA paperwork. As mentioned, there's not much demand for an F1 SBR. Sell off the upper if you ever want to, but keep the lower. |
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There's zero need to write the ATF. It returns to a "regular rifle" as soon as it's not configured as a short-barreled rifle. If you ever want to sell it, it can be sold as a lower, or with a 16+" upper, and no NFA paperwork. As mentioned, there's not much demand for an F1 SBR. Sell off the upper if you ever want to, but keep the lower. IDK about the no need to notify the ATF, with them having a form from you saying you made a SBR, i'd send a certified letter with tracking saying I removed it. But, I do agree 100% that if you are talking about an AR lower you paid to register then keep it till you can't shoot anymore because in 5 years you may want another SBR so sell the upper if you want but keep the lower. Plus, with the way this world is going you may not be allowed to SBR (or it may be even harder) in the future. |
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IDK about the no need to notify the ATF, with them having a form from you saying you made a SBR, i'd send a certified letter with tracking saying I removed it. But, I do agree 100% that if you are talking about an AR lower you paid to register then keep it till you can't shoot anymore because in 5 years you may want another SBR so sell the upper if you want but keep the lower. Plus, with the way this world is going you may not be allowed to SBR (or it may be even harder) in the future. Straight from ATF: Q: May I transfer the receiver of a short-barrel rifle or shotgun to an FFL or to an individual as I would any GCA firearm? A: Yes. A weapon that does not meet the definition of a NFA firearm is not subject to the NFA and a possessor or transferor needn't comply with NFA requirements. The firearm is considered a GCA firearm and may be transferred under the provisions of that law. Q: Who is responsible for notifying the NFA Branch when I transfer the GCA firearm to a FFL or another individual? A: There is no requirement that the transferor or transferee of a GCA firearm notify the NFA branch of a transfer or that either party determine whether the firearm was previously registered under the NFA. There is no also no requirement for the registrant or possessor of a NFA firearm to notify ATF of the removal of features that caused the firearm to be subject to the NFA; however, ATF recommends the owner notify the NFA Branch in writing if a firearm is permanently removed from the NFA. Q: What is the registered part of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) or Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)? A: While a receiver alone may be classified as a firearm under the Gun Control Act (GCA), SBRs and SBSs are classified in totality under the National Firearms Act (NFA). A firearm that meets the definition of a SBR consists of a rifle that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. A SBS consists of a shotgun that has a barrel less than 18 inches in length. The serialized receiver is recorded for registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR). Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS? A: A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer. No requirement to notify ATF when selling a GCA firearm. |
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Straight from ATF: Q: May I transfer the receiver of a short-barrel rifle or shotgun to an FFL or to an individual as I would any GCA firearm? A: Yes. A weapon that does not meet the definition of a NFA firearm is not subject to the NFA and a possessor or transferor needn't comply with NFA requirements. The firearm is considered a GCA firearm and may be transferred under the provisions of that law. Q: Who is responsible for notifying the NFA Branch when I transfer the GCA firearm to a FFL or another individual? A: There is no requirement that the transferor or transferee of a GCA firearm notify the NFA branch of a transfer or that either party determine whether the firearm was previously registered under the NFA. There is no also no requirement for the registrant or possessor of a NFA firearm to notify ATF of the removal of features that caused the firearm to be subject to the NFA; however, ATF recommends the owner notify the NFA Branch in writing if a firearm is permanently removed from the NFA. Q: What is the registered part of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) or Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)? A: While a receiver alone may be classified as a firearm under the Gun Control Act (GCA), SBRs and SBSs are classified in totality under the National Firearms Act (NFA). A firearm that meets the definition of a SBR consists of a rifle that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. A SBS consists of a shotgun that has a barrel less than 18 inches in length. The serialized receiver is recorded for registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR). Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS? A: A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer. No requirement to notify ATF when selling a GCA firearm. Quoted:
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IDK about the no need to notify the ATF, with them having a form from you saying you made a SBR, i'd send a certified letter with tracking saying I removed it. But, I do agree 100% that if you are talking about an AR lower you paid to register then keep it till you can't shoot anymore because in 5 years you may want another SBR so sell the upper if you want but keep the lower. Plus, with the way this world is going you may not be allowed to SBR (or it may be even harder) in the future. Straight from ATF: Q: May I transfer the receiver of a short-barrel rifle or shotgun to an FFL or to an individual as I would any GCA firearm? A: Yes. A weapon that does not meet the definition of a NFA firearm is not subject to the NFA and a possessor or transferor needn't comply with NFA requirements. The firearm is considered a GCA firearm and may be transferred under the provisions of that law. Q: Who is responsible for notifying the NFA Branch when I transfer the GCA firearm to a FFL or another individual? A: There is no requirement that the transferor or transferee of a GCA firearm notify the NFA branch of a transfer or that either party determine whether the firearm was previously registered under the NFA. There is no also no requirement for the registrant or possessor of a NFA firearm to notify ATF of the removal of features that caused the firearm to be subject to the NFA; however, ATF recommends the owner notify the NFA Branch in writing if a firearm is permanently removed from the NFA. Q: What is the registered part of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) or Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)? A: While a receiver alone may be classified as a firearm under the Gun Control Act (GCA), SBRs and SBSs are classified in totality under the National Firearms Act (NFA). A firearm that meets the definition of a SBR consists of a rifle that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. A SBS consists of a shotgun that has a barrel less than 18 inches in length. The serialized receiver is recorded for registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR). Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS? A: A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer. No requirement to notify ATF when selling a GCA firearm. OK, I still would and still for the reason I underlined. |
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Keep in mind when you go the form 1 route you have to engrave your info on the receiver, I don't know anyone waiting in line to buy an sbr with the previous owners info on the gun. Quoted:
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Thank you for the informative reply!! Keep in mind when you go the form 1 route you have to engrave your info on the receiver, I don't know anyone waiting in line to buy an sbr with the previous owners info on the gun. I have never owned any NFA items, but I have looked into it. I was not aware of this requirement. So if you want to SBR an AR lower you have to have it engraved? What info has to be engraved? Thanks |
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Quoted: I have never owned any NFA items, but I have looked into it. I was not aware of this requirement. So if you want to SBR an AR lower you have to have it engraved? What info has to be engraved? Thanks Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Thank you for the informative reply!! Keep in mind when you go the form 1 route you have to engrave your info on the receiver, I don't know anyone waiting in line to buy an sbr with the previous owners info on the gun. I have never owned any NFA items, but I have looked into it. I was not aware of this requirement. So if you want to SBR an AR lower you have to have it engraved? What info has to be engraved? Thanks -Your name (if individual filing) or the full name of your trust or other legal entity (if filled as such) -The city or town and state where the SBR is first created, i.e. where you actually assemble it into the complete SBR. The only part you can abbreviate is the state, using the commonly recognized postal 2 letter abbreviation. All else must be spelled out in full. There must also be the model (if it has one), serial number, and caliber, but in most cases you are re-using the mdel name and serial already on the lower, so they're already there, and the caliber will either be on the lower, or if it says multi or you put an upper on it with a different caliber barrel than what the lower says, there's usually an engraving on the barrel of the true caliber already. |
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I have never owned any NFA items, but I have looked into it. I was not aware of this requirement. So if you want to SBR an AR lower you have to have it engraved? What info has to be engraved? Thanks Here's info I have in the old eForms How-To: _________________________________________________________ For now, although not specific to EForms, I'm going to post something that gets discussed often. The question is what needs to be engraved. The answer most of the time is: Name of applicant (either individual or entity) City, state of where maker made the firearm (not necessarily home address, or even same city) Remember, when it comes to looking at the statutes as a Form 1 applicant, you are a maker, not a manufacturer. A Form 1 is an Application to Make and Register a Firearm. There are a whole different set of forms/regulations/taxes to be a manufacturer. Here are the statutes behind those requirements: § 479.102 How must firearms be identified? (a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows: (1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and (2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes: (i) The model, if such designation has been made; (ii) The caliber or gauge; (iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker; (iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and (v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134. Those are the general guidelines...then the ATF clarified for NFA items: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) authorizes licensed manufacturers and licensed importers of firearms, and makers of National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms, to adopt the serial number, caliber/gauge, and/or model already identified on a firearm without seeking a marking variance, provided all of the conditions in this ruling are met. Licensed manufacturers seeking to adopt all of the required markings, including the original manufacturer’s name and place of origin, must receive an approved variance from ATF. ATF Ruling 75-28 is superseded, and ATF Industry Circular 77-20 is clarified. Held, pursuant to 27 CFR 478.92(a)(4)(i) and 479.102(c), ATF authorizes licensed manufacturers and licensed importers of firearms, and makers, to adopt the serial number, caliber/gauge, and/or model already identified on a firearm without seeking a marking variance, provided all of the following conditions are met: 1. The manufacturer, importer, or maker must legibly and conspicuously place on the frame, receiver, barrel, or pistol slide (if applicable) his/her own name (or recognized abbreviation) and location (city and State, or recognized abbreviation of the State) as specified under his/her Federal firearms license (if a licensee); 2. The serial number adopted must have been marked in accordance with 27 CFR 478.92 and 479.102, including that it must not duplicate any serial number adopted or placed by the manufacturer, importer, or maker on any other firearm; 3. The manufacturer, importer, or maker must not remove, obliterate, or alter the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number to be adopted, except that, within 15 days of the date of release from Customs custody, a licensed importer must add letters, numbers, or a hyphen (as described in paragraph 4) to a foreign manufacturer’s serial number if the importer receives two or more firearms with the same serial number; 4. The serial number adopted must be comprised of only a combination of Roman letters and Arabic numerals, or solely Arabic numerals, and can include a hyphen, that were conspicuously placed on the firearm; and 5. If the caliber or gauge was not identified or designated (e.g., marked “multi”) on the firearm, the manufacturer, importer, or maker must legibly and conspicuously mark the frame, receiver, barrel, or pistol slide (if applicable) with the actual caliber/gauge once the caliber or gauge is known. Held further, licensed manufacturers seeking to adopt all of the required markings, including the original manufacturer’s name and place of origin, must receive an approved variance from ATF. So...the quick list of required engravings: 1. Serial Number 2. Model (if designated) 3. Caliber 4. Name 5. Location A maker on an F1 can reuse the SN and model. They must engrave caliber if it's not present anywhere else, (i.e. if lower is marked "multi" and barrel isn't marked). You add your name, or name of entity that is the registered owner. Then, as maker, the city, state of where it was actually made. For a build from scratch, like an SBR using an 80% lower, or a Form 1 suppressor...you'd need to engrave everything on the list. That information can be on the frame, receiver, barrel, or pistol slide. But, it must always be on the firearm. That simply means if you choose to engrave on an AR upper or barrel, you'd have to engrave every upper/barrel you plan to use. That's why most will engrave the lower receiver. The serial number, however, must be on the frame or receiver (could be upper or lower depending on which part the ATF has defined as the "firearm"). Notice only the SN has the 1/16" minimum size. Everything else is only held to the .003" minimum depth. If you want to read the documents yourself, you can find 27 CFR 479.102 here and ATF ruling 2013-3 here. ETA 1/22/16: Inevitably, at some point in the engraving discussion, somebody will ask this question: "What if I don't engrave...what's the penalty?" Well, the NFA rules/penatlies are in CFR › Title 27 › Chapter II › Subchapter B › Part 479 27 CFR 479.181 - Penalties. Any person who violates or fails to comply with the requirements of 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 shall, upon conviction, be subject to the penalties imposed under 26 U.S.C. 5871. 26 U.S. Code § 5871 - Penalties Any person who violates or fails to comply with any provisions of this chapter shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000, or be imprisoned not more than ten years, or both. For anybody that wants an easy way to remember this...follow the advice I often give but failed to follow myself: read the dang form! Directly from the instructions on the Form 1: 9. Penalties. Any person who violates or fails to comply with any of the requirements of the NFA shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000 or be imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both. Any firearm involved in a violation of the NFA shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture. It is unlawful for any person to make or cause the making of a false entry on any application or record required by the NFA knowing such entry to be false. It's also in Chapter 15 of the NFA Handbook...which also references the $250K penalty that's often mentioned, and quotes the Statutes listed above: 15.1.1 Criminal. The acts prohibited by the NFA and prosecutable as Federal offenses are listed in 26 U.S.C. 5861(a) through (l). As provided by 26 U.S.C. 5871, any person who commits an offense shall, upon conviction, be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 10 years or fined. Although the fine specified in the statute is an amount not exceeding $10,000, an amendment to Federal law provides for a fine of not more than $250,000 in the case of an individual or $500,000 in the case of an organization.[224] [224] 18 U.S.C. 3571(b) and (c) |
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Thanks for the engraving info, that is an awesome summery. So, next question. Who do you send yours to? Anyone know a good shop local to SW Missouri? :-)
I assume there is no reason to wait on a form one to get the engraving done. I.E. I can get it engraved now and then build it after I get my form 1 back. |
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Thanks for the engraving info, that is an awesome summery. So, next question. Who do you send yours to? Anyone know a good shop local to SW Missouri? :-) I assume there is no reason to wait on a form one to get the engraving done. I.E. I can get it engraved now and then build it after I get my form 1 back. You are correct that you do not need to wait for your tax stamp to get the lower engraved. I don't know anything about Missouri, but Gray Laser Engraving in San Antonio does awesome work, and they will do your engraving if you ship the lower to them. Bill Gray is great to work with. |
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