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Posted: 9/7/2013 8:09:23 PM EDT
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Tell me about 45-70. I want to get a lever gun and was looking to get a .357 or 30-30 but 45-70 seems pretty popular too.
What can I do with it in terms of hunting? What's it cost to shoot? Also, what band do you guy recommend? Thanks, jcm |
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My advise is original Marlin -North Haven stamped.
I myself like the full sized 1895 but many others like the guide gun in one finish or another. A bit tricky for long range hunting but with the right loads it is plenty of power to hunt anywhere but Africa and some would argue that. If all you are doing is buying factory ammo even the light loads will cost you $1.25-$1.50 . Great caliber to get into reloading with. For hunting dear and black Bear 44mag is plenty , ammo is still expensive from the factory , pretty cheap to reload with cast bullets. Deer at reasonable distance is still possible with 357 which packs a decent wallop out of a carbine , ammo is more reasonable but reloading yet . 30-30 , 35 rem and other cartridges all hunt well . Don't overlook the fun factor of a lever 22LR . Levers are lots of fun |
| If your aren't hunting anything bigger than deer it is more rifle than you need; it won't be the cheapest choice to shoot either, reloading definitely helps. It is going to shove you more than the other choices you posted, however all in all big bore lever guns are just a whole lot of fun! |
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Even reloading your own...that's a lot of components going downrange at every hammer drop....
30-30 has more options ammo due to the poly tip bullets that are out now. They are safe to shoot in lever guns. 45 LC is an option too, might be in my future one day since I have a Ruger wheel gun in LC. My dad tried t give me his 45-70 Marlin and I passed. I just figured big-game would be the only reason to own it and I plan on using a 3006 or 308 if I ever get a chance to hunt out west. |
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My advise is original Marlin -North Haven stamped. I myself like the full sized 1895 but many others like the guide gun in one finish or another. A bit tricky for long range hunting but with the right loads it is plenty of power to hunt anywhere but Africa and some would argue that. You're quite wrong. There is no argument. It's been done and is being done every year. Back to the OP. The 45-70 can also be charged with black powder (yes I know you can fill any cartridge with BP, but the 45-70 was designed for it). They make much smoke and flame which greatly adds to the enjoyment of shooting. Be aware though, the 45-70 if loaded with the heaviest bullets and/or higher velocities will recoil much more than most other levergun cartridges (the .450) is about equal. |
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With a strong action - like the ruger no. 1 you can approach .458 win mag loads. The recoil is awesome if you're into that sort of thing. IIRC a full house Ruger no.1 .45-70 load is somewhere around 50 ft-lbs of recoil energy. The lever actions are not quite as strong an action. The lyman manual lists 3 separate loading data sets for the .45-70 - old sharps & trapdoor loads, lever action loads - medium loads, Ruger no.1 and other strong action loads.
Of course you can load it way down also. I think I ran anywhere from about 30 to over 50 grains of 3031 behind a 378 grain LRN. |
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With a strong action - like the ruger no. 1 you can approach .458 win mag loads. The recoil is awesome if you're into that sort of thing. IIRC a full house Ruger no.1 .45-70 load is somewhere around 50 ft-lbs of recoil energy. The lever actions are not quite as strong an action. The lyman manual lists 3 separate loading data sets for the .45-70 - old sharps & trapdoor loads, lever action loads - medium loads, Ruger no.1 and other strong action loads. Of course you can load it way down also. I think I ran anywhere from about 30 to over 50 grains of 3031 behind a 378 grain LRN. That's right. Loaded with trapdoor loads recoil is light. I remember seeing an article in a magazine where a PH in Africa was using Buffalo Bore loads on a rhino and the bullet went completely through broadside. My rifle doesn't feed the lever revolution rounds reliably. The 405 grain hard cast function fine. |
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You can not go wrong with the 45-70, It will work great on anything you want to hunt. I have shot deer and elk with great results! My 45-70 is a Marlin guide gun I love it, balance, compact, and deadly! My brother carries a Marlin in .444 its a little much on deer but great on elk. My dad hunts with a Marlin in 350. We all have our primary hunting rifles with scopes in 30.06, and 7MM. But we find ourselves carrying our lever guns more and more, especially here in the mountains of Colorado where the terrain can get tight.
I am warning you though! You will buy more lever guns in different calibers, I love my 30-30 and would not hesitate to shoot an elk with it. Only because everything I have ever shot with it has died! I haven't had a chance to take an elk with it yet, but I have shot several hogs and piles of deer with great results. Any way my 30-30 has turned me on to several other lever guns in 30-30 "Yes even though I had one already, I can't stop buying them" .45 Colt, 44 mag, 32 special, 45-70, and my Winchester 1895 in .303 British. I am dying to hunt with my .303! Now I don't get into the "Nuclear, Ballistic tip, Polished with diamonds, dipped in cobra venom... bullets". All of my lever guns shoot "Whats on sale" just fine. I figure these guns have been around for a looong time and they have all harvested lots of game with plain old lead tipped bullets. My brother does shoot the LeverEvloution, and I will admit they are impressive, I just haven't shot up all of my old ammo yet. I will try them some day I guess. Don't be afraid of cost, the gratification you will get out of shooting these fine rifles is worth every dime! Just my .2 cents I hope this helps.... Have fun!.......Sully |
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Quoted: My marlin guide gun in .45-70 is by far my favorite hunting rifle. VX-3 1.5 - 5 on leupold super low rings. The scope barely clears the hammer but lines up for a quick shot with ease. http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n609/DelttronFive/578cb315650ffdeeea87bbed8370eb04.jpg I have the same setup, just with Talley removable rings. Awesome gun and scope combo. |
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If you can find a decent pre-Remlin Marlin in 45-70 (1895), you can be assured you can find pretty much every mod or accessory imaginable, as there is a strong market. If you reload, you can load down to anemic (near .45 Colt) velocities, or nip at the heels of larger bore magnums. Though some have taken African Big-Five game with it, for practicality purposes, it would not be my first choice.......Though I have confidence it would do the job, in a pinch, it would be hard, if not impossible, to find ammo in many African countries (should your ammo get lost or confiscated, due to being over the 11lb limit in some layover countries).
I own two Wild West modified Marlin 1895s, one being a Co-Pilot in .457 WWM. Though I keep a few boxes of the .457 around, I still primarily shoot 45-70 loads (chambers both). It also single feeds .410 shells, making it a compact (take-down) and highly versatile tool. Excellent accuracy too, if you do your part. If hunting is not in your itinerary, and if you can find it, an 1894 Marlin in .357 is extremely versatile as well. Hunting medium sized game is still easily feasible, and the Marlin action is quite stout. Being able to shoot .38 Spcl, or .357 is nice. Though not my first choice, it would also be quite formidable in home protection as well. Full power loads with heavy hard cast bullets could certainly handle anything in North America in a pinch. PC |
| You don't need to find a pre-Remlin Marlin. You can also look for the newest ones. I've seen a bunch of them now (bought one a little while ago) and the only issues I've seen were not that great stock fit (minor cosmetics) and a warped rear sight (the free replacement they sent me was straight as an arrow). |
OP. don't buy a levergun, they are as addicting as AR's and will multiply alot faster since most rack grade leverguns are quite a bit cheaper than black rifles.
seriously though, I'm a fan of Marlins because I think they are the best bang for the buck compared to the other brands. I prefer the pre Remington Marlins because the QC on these are better and in the long run they will be worth more just for the fact that they are "real" Marlins. Winchesters and Henrys are nice too, but the Winchesters will cost a lot more and IMO the Henrys are priced too high for what you get. I don't have any experience with Taurus and Rossi leverguns but it seems like they are hit and miss for whether they need tuning in order to work. the .45-70 is a great round that will handle any game in North America, cost for a box is usually around $30-$40/box(higher if you get into the juiced up Buffalo Bore or Garret ammo). .30-30 ammo runs around $18/box at walmart and would be a great choice for deer, but I'm not really sure how it would handle bear and elk. |
I started with a 44mag lever gun then got a 45-70. Both are great guns, but I can shoot the 44mag at the pistol and it has a lot less kick so I can shoot more rounds. In any case, you should look into reloading for these guns. Its a lot cheaper and you can shoot more. 
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Even reloading your own...that's a lot of components going downrange at every hammer drop.... 30-30 has more options ammo due to the poly tip bullets that are out now. They are safe to shoot in lever guns. 45 LC is an option too, might be in my future one day since I have a Ruger wheel gun in LC. My dad tried t give me his 45-70 Marlin and I passed. I just figured big-game would be the only reason to own it and I plan on using a 3006 or 308 if I ever get a chance to hunt out west. For example, with a Lyman 457643 400 gr cast bullet, 13.7 to 16.5 gr of Unique will give you between 1150 and 1290 fps velocity. You can find them or very similar 400-405 gr bullets in bags of 500 for $115, so $0.23 per bullet, plus $.045 for the primer and $.045 for the powder, for a total of $0.32 per round/$6.40 per box of 20. ----- I like the .30-30 just fine, but you give up just a bit in terms of ballistics with cast bullets, unless you push gas checked bullets close to their maximum velocity. My preference is a "Ruger Only" loaded .45 Colt, or a .44 Mag. You get excellent performance out of a carbine including decent energy levels a great big hole and a flat enough trajectory to shoot out to 200 yards or so - about as far as I shot a .30-30 anyway on deer sized game. With a .45 Colt out of a 20" carbine shooting 27.5 gr of W-296 under Hornady .452 250 gr XTP Mag I can get 1,900 fps with very good accuracy. That's 2,000 ft pounds of energy at the muzzle, and a 200 yard point blank range with a 170 yard zero (+/- 5" from line of sight), leaving 1,160 fps and 750 ft pounds remaining at 200 yards. Recoil wise, a 20" Rossi Model 92 weighs 5.7 pounds, so that 20.87 ft pounds of recoil energy with a 15.35 fps recoil velocity. It's roughly similar in total energy to a 150 gr .30-06, but the recoil velocity is 50% faster, so it's a snappy little load in a carbine. |
| I'm in the opposite camp. Most of the pre remington guns are microgrooved not so good for cast bullets. All the post remington guns are ballard style cut rifling. Excellent for cast bullets. Cast bullets are where the 45-70 really shines. The older marlins are prettier but I prefer function over looks. Some of the early remington marlins weren't so hot but I haven't seen any lately that are not shooters. Gun forum info gets rehashed a lot even though things change. I'm sure someone is going to get twisted panties over my opinion. |
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Quoted: You'll get plenty of argument on that over at Marlinowners Quoted: Most of the pre remington guns are microgrooved not so good for cast bullets. You'll get plenty of argument on that over at Marlinowners |
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I'm in the opposite camp. Most of the pre remington guns are microgrooved not so good for cast bullets. All the post remington guns are ballard style cut rifling. Excellent for cast bullets. Cast bullets are where the 45-70 really shines. The older marlins are prettier but I prefer function over looks. Some of the early remington marlins weren't so hot but I haven't seen any lately that are not shooters. Gun forum info gets rehashed a lot even though things change. I'm sure someone is going to get twisted panties over my opinion. I believe all of the 1895's since around '98 have had Ballard rifling so there are quite a few years of real Marlins out there with it. |
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Yup, simply not true. One of the old wives tales that never seem to die. Cast will shoot very well in a microgroove barrel. Quoted:
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Most of the pre remington guns are microgrooved not so good for cast bullets. You'll get plenty of argument on that over at Marlinowners That. You just need to slug your bore and make certain your cast loads are of the proper size. My .38/.357 1894 Marlin with Microgoove bore is a laser with 158gr LRNFP cast loads of both .38 and .357 speeds. My .45-70 1895 is also a laser with cast loads (well... a laser that curves like a sumbitch at 150M or so...) Just have to take the extra step of making certain the bullets fit the bore properly.... I don't have any leading issues worth mentioning in my guns either. |
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My dad tried t give me his 45-70 Marlin and I passed. I just figured big-game would be the only reason to own it and I plan on using a 3006 or 308 if I ever get a chance to hunt out west. Have your Dad PM me. I'll take that rifle. Original reply was pretty much dead on. I'd say get the 44mag to start... but don't miss out on the big bore fun a 45-70 can dish out. |
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Also, what band do you guy recommend? Thanks, jcm I'm a fan of Yo Yo MA and Andrea Bocelli for general purpose driving or chilling out, along with some classic George Harrison, John Hiatt or Jeff Healey blues thrown in every now and again. I'll toss a "heavy metal" playlist on the ipod for workout time occasionally too -- Five Finger Deathpunch, Slayer, Slipknot, and others all get in there but I listen to podcasts and sports radio at least 70% of the time |
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I'm a fan of Yo Yo MA and Andrea Bocelli for general purpose driving or chilling out, along with some classic George Harrison, John Hiatt or Jeff Healey blues thrown in every now and again. I'll toss a "heavy metal" playlist on the ipod for workout time occasionally too -- Five Finger Deathpunch, Slayer, Slipknot, and others all get in there but I listen to podcasts and sports radio at least 70% of the time Quoted:
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Also, what band do you guy recommend? Thanks, jcm I'm a fan of Yo Yo MA and Andrea Bocelli for general purpose driving or chilling out, along with some classic George Harrison, John Hiatt or Jeff Healey blues thrown in every now and again. I'll toss a "heavy metal" playlist on the ipod for workout time occasionally too -- Five Finger Deathpunch, Slayer, Slipknot, and others all get in there but I listen to podcasts and sports radio at least 70% of the time ---- I think the .45-70 is great fun in a Sharps, but less so in a lever gun. It has a place and performs extremely well when you need the punch, but it's a bit limited for general shooting. You can get 405 gr cast bullets in 500 count boxes for $96 shipped from CB bullets, so that's $0.19 each. Add $.047 for 14 grains of Unique, a basically free 5/8" square 1/4" thick poly batting wad, $.049 for a primer and you can get a pleasant shooting plinking load at black powder velocities for $0.29 each / $5.80 per box of 20 / $14.50 per box of 50. ----- I'd also strongly consider a Model 92 in .45 Colt. You can get .44 Mag performance at less pressure, around 32,000 psi, and have a greater range in bullet weights. A 250 or 300 grain bullet at full power velocities is an excellent deer and black bear cartridge that will exceed .30-30 performance out to the 150 yards or so that you'd normally shoot a .30-30. And it can be lightly loaded for very pleasant plinking and target shooting. ----- It's an acquired taste and a reloader only proposition, but a .375 Winchester is also a great choice. .250 gr cast bullets and 9.6 gr of Unique will create a nice plinking and target shooting load. A full power load with a 220 grain jacketed bullet will give excellent performance on deer, black bear and elk out to about 240 yards with the trajectory being no more than +/- 5" from the line of sight and still deliver 1000 ft pounds at that range. |
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I really like the new Winchester/Miroku 1886's in .45-70. I recently bought one and it is beautiful, much nicer than any Marlin I've seen in recent years, but this is also reflected in the price. Yes --- I love the 1886's . I admit, my Guide Gun is my ultimate "workin' gun" though and will never be replaced, -- but i'd like to have a Winnie - or better yet, the Browning version as it is the way JMB intended it back in '86, while a modern Winnie still has a tang safety |
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Interesting. I'm planning on taking a trip to a gun shop today to look at lever actions. For you guys who reload for the .45-70, what is your cost per round? That's the only thing making me hesitant to get one in that caliber. I load cast and jacketed... I figure rough per round cost as follows: (all are approximate based on pricing last I bought the stuff... Might be much higher now.  )
Primer = .02 (payed about 20$/1000) Powder = .14 (roughly 50grs.. So 140 rounds per Lb... 20$/pound) Bullets = .12 cast (30$250 pieces of 405gr LSWC) or .20 jacketed (50$/250 for bulk Remington 405gr) Cases I get multiple shots out of... Think last I bought them they were about .18 per (89$/500 pieces of Starline). I only use Starline for my 45-70, it is great brass. (I use Starline exclusively for many rounds other than precision rifle stuff) So under 50 cents a shot?... Prices can go way up if using items that are fancier, or bought in lesser quantity than bulk. Edit to add: looked at current pricing on stuff... It certainly pays to buy in bulk. Figure 3.5-4 cents on primer. 20 cents of powder, 20 to 50 cents on most bullets... Cases the same If you're patient... If not, let's say 25 cents per... So with new brass, under a buck a round. My cases get up to 3 " full house" loads before going into the 'bunny fart' box.... They'll last just about forever in the bunny fart loadings.... Still, not much over 50 cents a shot for cast loads with multi-uses per casing. Obviously, Woodleigh bullets or other premium bullets will cost way more, but they offer limited real world usability over the Remington 405s in North America.. Those are still around 32-40 cents depending on bulk. |
| I have a 1895G in .45-70 and love it! I had wildest guns park it and install a set of their ghost rings and man it's one sweet shooting rifle. The cost to shoo is up there, $1.50 and up a round if you don't reload. If you do reload you can get so much more out of the cartridge! It was the first rifle I ever bought and wouldn't sell it for the world, even now that I don't live in Alaska anymore. |
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Quoted: Yup, simply not true. One of the old wives tales that never seem to die. Cast will shoot very well in a microgroove barrel. Quoted: Quoted: Most of the pre remington guns are microgrooved not so good for cast bullets. You'll get plenty of argument on that over at Marlinowners |
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Quoted: Tell me about 45-70. I want to get a lever gun and was looking to get a .357 or 30-30 but 45-70 seems pretty popular too. What can I do with it in terms of hunting? What's it cost to shoot? Also, what band do you guy recommend? Thanks, jcm If you have no leverguns you should get a 30-30 and a 45-70. Reload and cast for both to get the best economics and frankly to maximize the range of usefulness. You can solve a lot of problems with these two rifles. Leverguns are the original assault rifle: http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/powder-keg/85421-%93appalachian-assault-rifle%94.html |
| 45-70 is the reason I started reloading 15 years ago. I have killed more deer with my 1895s than with any other firearm. My days of traveling to other states to deer hunt are over, so I am thinking of selling my 1895s and picking up the 1895sbl. I love 45-70. Even though I can't deer hunt with it in Ohio, I'll never be without one. |
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If you all think that the 405's are something, try shooting some of my 430 cast, gas checked bullets at 2000 fps!!! These will get your attention real quick, but they sure work! For 'fun' shooting we go down to the 405's and shoot all day. The grand daughter like to shoot the 405's and are real good with them. They have shot the 430's but no as well.
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Manshit….I agree. From a bench rest I will shoot it twice before I back out. Shooting the 405 three times makes me cry.  Quoted:
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Recoil on the 405 grain is manshit! Enjoy- it's good medicine. Manshit….I agree. From a bench rest I will shoot it twice before I back out. Shooting the 405 three times makes me cry. |
| I have has a lever action in .22 lr, .357 mag and now the .45-70. Though I miss the .357 model Rossi with a 24" stainless octagon barrel it was not in a caliber I shot after getting out of cowboy action. For that reason I sold all my .357 mag chambered guns. My Dad had a Marlin 30-30 with the pistol gripped style stock not my cup of tea. The .45-70 I have wanted from an early age, and love my Marlin not the(Remlin) as most people call them. I bought it this year it has about 100 rounds through it since I live in the city getting to range is about an every three month schedule. It is a Guide Gun model with the bluing and to be honest I shoot primarily the black stuff handholds through it. Enough on that but with the 405 grain flat nosed bullets the gun functions flawlessly. I have buffalo bore as well but that is for in the woods need a better penetration bullet ie like a mountain loin or something. But my hand loads are far cheaper shooting black than even the on sale ammo. In fact in the primary reason I refuse to buy a bolt action because I can shoot this one so cheap. I have the mold but have yet to cast my own bullets for it still then my costs will go down to even less. The bad the brass corrodes quick if no immediately cared for. All in all I think every one should own a .45-70 first and a .30-30 second or pistol calibers in the round you prefer. I like the .45 colt but Probably will not buy one as I love my 1911's to much. I would love to get another .45-70 and looking at the Rossi Rio Grande model to be my next one since Marlins cost so much even used right now. |
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Also on the reloading notes that can be a huge saving to shooting black vs smokeless.
Remington Large Rifle primers 1000/ $40.00 Hodgens Triple 7 RS about 15 dollars local as I can't find smokeless anywhere I refuse to pay 30 dollars for hazmat and shipping on top of that. Remington Brass 50 ct by weight came to 53 for 32.00 HSM cast 405 bullets 250 count for 67.00 Given this all I could find so i bought my own Lee Molds for 20.00 each for 405 grain bullets. Another note maybe it is just me but I find the 300 grains to be more painful than the 405's. I shoot 50 rounds of 405's I am fine one box 20 Federal premium power shocks and I want to call it a day. I figured my cost since I am on the second all around reloading not buying brass is around .04 cents for each primer .27 cents for each bullet and about .03-04 cents for black powder. So that makes it .35 cents a shot right now with buying the cast bullets once I start casting my own it will go even below that. |
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Great caliber. Even better if you reload and cast. "Devastating" is the word I hear most when it comes to on game performance. My own experience is limited to Elk and Black Bear and it has proven to be VERY effective. We shoot a lot of long range with it too.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AHRMdMSiD0[/youtube] [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfeAmjNmUzc[/youtube] |
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I believe all of the 1895's since around '98 have had Ballard rifling so there are quite a few years of real Marlins out there with it. Quoted:
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I'm in the opposite camp. Most of the pre remington guns are microgrooved not so good for cast bullets. All the post remington guns are ballard style cut rifling. Excellent for cast bullets. Cast bullets are where the 45-70 really shines. The older marlins are prettier but I prefer function over looks. Some of the early remington marlins weren't so hot but I haven't seen any lately that are not shooters. Gun forum info gets rehashed a lot even though things change. I'm sure someone is going to get twisted panties over my opinion. I believe all of the 1895's since around '98 have had Ballard rifling so there are quite a few years of real Marlins out there with it. Are those the ones that got hit with the roll stamp so hard you can read it inside the barrel and causes a tight spot? Or have rifling so rough, it cuts patches? Or that Marlin used an automatic center punch to "tighten" the front sight dovetail? Are those the real Marlins?
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When it comes to a .45-70, my Browning 1886 SRC is my baby.  Smooth, accurate and not too shabby in the accuracy department. Add to that it's a beautiful rifle to boot! I generally shoot with 405 grain cast bullets at a warm load that packs a punch but not so hot to put any premature wear on my baby. I've been looking at the Uberti 186 full length rifles and they have been turning my head too although before I go that route, I may be looking a bit closer at the 1876 rifle in .45-60. I have a Uberti 1873 in .45 Colt that is my favorite SASS rifle especially loaded with black powder so the 1876 seems like a logical choice in that it has the same smooth toggle linkage of the '73 yet just slightly less powerful than the .45-70 using BP loads.
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OP there's a couple of questions you might answer before deciding what to buy. Are you going to scope the rifle? If so, buy a Marlin, if not I prefer the Winchester designs. Are you going to shoot the gun a lot? If so get a pistol cartridge carbine for your first lever gun, you'll get more bang for your buck.
If you want the cream of the lever gun 45-70's find a Browning 1886, prob the best '86's ever built. The Miroku's are great guns, I have two, but the Browning's are the better guns and IMHO much stronger than the Marlin if you're wanting to shoot "hot" loads thru it. It's not that the Marlin won't stand the loads...it'll just shoot loose faster than the '86s IMHO. Rob |
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