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Posted: 8/13/2010 6:47:15 PM EDT
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I need some help guys.
I am new getting into .308 and am thinking of picking up a Winchester Model 70 Extreme Weather SS in .308. Will this gun shoot 7.62 also? I know.223 and 5.56 are not the same chamber, is it the same for .308 and 7.62? Also, is the M70 magazine detachable? Thanks for your help. |
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google is your friend there are two variants of 7.62 x38 x54 54 is the equivalent of 308 38 is what most sks and sk shoot actually you are very wrong 7.62x39 SKS, AK-47s and copies, 1 or two bolt-action/single-shot rifles 7.62x54R PKM, Mosin Nagants 91/30, M44, M39, Dragunov and copies, etc. 7.62x51 basically military .308, largely though not fully compatible - FALs, miniguns, AR-10 and copies, etc. 7.62x25 TT-33 Tokarev, CZ-52, lots of WWII Russian submachine guns such as PPSH-41, PPD, etc. don't worry though, .308 is higher pressure than military 7.62 nato, so a model 70 would have no issues with surplus ammo. |
| It is my understanding that 7.62 has a thicker case brass wise. So the chamber is very slightly different, like 1000th's. And for what it's worth we shoot .223 in 5.56 barreled guns with no issue. But I have heard if you do that the other way around you can run into extraction issues. |
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google is your friend there are two variants of 7.62 x38 x54 54 is the equivalent of 308 38 is what most sks and sk shoot actually you are very wrong 7.62x39 SKS, AK-47s and copies, 1 or two bolt-action/single-shot rifles 7.62x54R PKM, Mosin Nagants 91/30, M44, M39, Dragunov and copies, etc. 7.62x51 basically military .308, largely though not fully compatible - FALs, miniguns, AR-10 and copies, etc. 7.62x25 TT-33 Tokarev, CZ-52, lots of WWII Russian submachine guns such as PPSH-41, PPD, etc. don't worry though, .308 is higher pressure than military 7.62 nato, so a model 70 would have no issues with surplus ammo. argh, i knew logging on was a bad idea tonight. thanks for the correction 
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google is your friend there are two variants of 7.62 x38 x54 54 is the equivalent of 308 38 is what most sks and sk shoot actually you are very wrong 7.62x39 SKS, AK-47s and copies, 1 or two bolt-action/single-shot rifles 7.62x54R PKM, Mosin Nagants 91/30, M44, M39, Dragunov and copies, etc. 7.62x51 basically military .308, largely though not fully compatible - FALs, miniguns, AR-10 and copies, etc. 7.62x25 TT-33 Tokarev, CZ-52, lots of WWII Russian submachine guns such as PPSH-41, PPD, etc. don't worry though, .308 is higher pressure than military 7.62 nato, so a model 70 would have no issues with surplus ammo. argh, i knew logging on was a bad idea tonight. thanks for the correction Taking correction like a champ +5 points for you |
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I think a better question is why would you want to? 7.62x51 is loaded to a much lower pressure than commercial .308 which is the exact opposite effect from the 5.56mm/.223 relationship. This then is the ultimate answer to my question. I had no idea that surplus was loaded less hot than commercial. Very interesting the difference from 5.56 / .223. Any idea why military ammo would be less powerful than commercial? Thanks everyone for the info! |
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google is your friend there are two variants of 7.62 x38 x54 54 is the equivalent of 308 38 is what most sks and sk shoot actually you are very wrong 7.62x39 SKS, AK-47s and copies, 1 or two bolt-action/single-shot rifles 7.62x54R PKM, Mosin Nagants 91/30, M44, M39, Dragunov and copies, etc. 7.62x51 basically military .308, largely though not fully compatible - FALs, miniguns, AR-10 and copies, etc. 7.62x25 TT-33 Tokarev, CZ-52, lots of WWII Russian submachine guns such as PPSH-41, PPD, etc. don't worry though, .308 is higher pressure than military 7.62 nato, so a model 70 would have no issues with surplus ammo. And , maybe the rimmed cartage for the Ruski Nagant revolver ? And the Spanish 7.62 CETME . God bless Wyr |
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I think a better question is why would you want to? 7.62x51 is loaded to a much lower pressure than commercial .308 which is the exact opposite effect from the 5.56mm/.223 relationship. This then is the ultimate answer to my question. I had no idea that surplus was loaded less hot than commercial. Very interesting the difference from 5.56 / .223. Any idea why military ammo would be less powerful than commercial? Thanks everyone for the info! Just a theory, but its probably not loaded as hot because it doesn't need to be, ––- plus a slightly milder load may be easier on the firearms as well. And arguably, military loads aren't loaded to the same precise degree some of the commercial loadings are ––- with the exception of dedicated snipers, most military usage does not call for anything that needs to be better than 2 MOA. As civilians, we get pissed if we buy a $350 Savage and it wont print 1 MOA I'd like to see a fps difference between a military 7.62 x 51 and a common commercial .308 SP hunting load though ––- i wouldnt think it would be that astronomical a difference Since this is in the Leverguns forum,, i take it you are interested in a BAR or a Winchester 88 ?  or was the thread just mis-placed 
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I think a better question is why would you want to? 7.62x51 is loaded to a much lower pressure than commercial .308 which is the exact opposite effect from the 5.56mm/.223 relationship. This then is the ultimate answer to my question. I had no idea that surplus was loaded less hot than commercial. Very interesting the difference from 5.56 / .223. Any idea why military ammo would be less powerful than commercial? Thanks everyone for the info! Just a theory, but its probably not loaded as hot because it doesn't need to be, ––- plus a slightly milder load may be easier on the firearms as well. And arguably, military loads aren't loaded to the same precise degree some of the commercial loadings are ––- with the exception of dedicated snipers, most military usage does not call for anything that needs to be better than 2 MOA. As civilians, we get pissed if we buy a $350 Savage and it wont print 1 MOA I'd like to see a fps difference between a military 7.62 x 51 and a common commercial .308 SP hunting load though ––- i wouldnt think it would be that astronomical a difference Since this is in the Leverguns forum,, i take it you are interested in a BAR or a Winchester 88 ? or was the thread just mis-placed
No, sorry guys, just misplaced. I read "lever guns", but my brain saw "bolt guns". Not the same thing, I know. |
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I'll move the thread if y'all want. Since I didn't receive a report, I'll guess it's okay right here.
BIG_PAPA The only salient difference in .308 Win and 7.62X51 ammunition is the spec chamber pressure. As odd as it might seem, .308 Win is loaded to significantly higher pressure than 7.62 ammo, and there are no issues with bullet jam or other complications, so your rifle is good to go with either ammunition. |
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I could be way off, and have been in the past, but isn't a 7.62X51 chamber slightly longer then a 308 chamber so that it can function while dirty and while clean?
Also, as a side note, isn't the 7.62X54R the Russian version of the 308, so technically it is similar? I know they will not camber in a 308 gun, due to the large rim, but performance is very similar IIRC |
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I think a better question is why would you want to? 7.62x51 is loaded to a much lower pressure than commercial .308 which is the exact opposite effect from the 5.56mm/.223 relationship. This then is the ultimate answer to my question. I had no idea that surplus was loaded less hot than commercial. Very interesting the difference from 5.56 / .223. Any idea why military ammo would be less powerful than commercial? Thanks everyone for the info! Basically the 7.62 x 51 was the father to the commercial 308. Remember the M14? The 7.62 x 51 was developed for the M14 which is basically very similar in operation to the old M1 Garand. Both are piston type gas systems. As with the Garand which fires a 30-06 round, neither gas systems are designed to work with the more powerful commercially loaded 30-06 or 308 Win rounds. The Garand was designed to fire a less powerful 30-06 round known at M2 Ball which is a slightly less powered than a commercial 30-06 round. So when the M14 was developed it's ammo, the 7.62 x 51 round, was also loaded not as powerful and the commercial 308 Win that was later developed. Firing the more powerful commercial versions of the ammo may damage the gas system components on the Garand or M14/M1A. Although if I'm not mistaken the M1A may be a bit more tolerant and it's more of a headspace issue. |
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Basically the 7.62 x 51 was the father to the commercial 308. Remember the M14? The 7.62 x 51 was developed for the M14 which is basically very similar in operation to the old M1 Garand. Both are piston type gas systems. As with the Garand which fires a 30-06 round, neither gas systems are designed to work with the more powerful commercially loaded 30-06 or 308 Win rounds. The Garand was designed to fire a less powerful 30-06 round known at M2 Ball which is a slightly less powered than a commercial 30-06 round. So when the M14 was developed it's ammo, the 7.62 x 51 round, was also loaded not as powerful and the commercial 308 Win that was later developed. Firing the more powerful commercial versions of the ammo may damage the gas system components on the Garand or M14/M1A. Although if I'm not mistaken the M1A may be a bit more tolerant and it's more of a headspace issue. Yes, the 7.62 was the father before the .308 Winchester however, Winchester marked the .308- 3 years before the Army finally adopted the 7.62 (who helped the Army develope the cartridge). The M1 rifle was not designed for the M2 cartridge. It orginally was designed for the .276 Pederson cart, nixed by Gen. MacAurther and was chambered and approved for adoption using the M1 .30 cal cartridge (173gr FMJ BT) which was the standard service cartridge at the time. The M1 was dropped in favor of the M2 because its extreme range was shooting outside exsisting National Guard ranges built for the M1906 cart (both 1906 and M2 use a 150 gr FMJ flat base bullet). CD |
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Also, as a side note, isn't the 7.62X54R the Russian version of the 308, so technically it is similar? I know they will not camber in a 308 gun, due to the large rim, but performance is very similar IIRC Other way around since the Russians adopted the 3 lini cartridge in 1891 (7.62x54Rimmed). Its performance is roughy the same as the 7.62x51 NATO. The .308 was marketed by Winchester in 1951 and 7.62x51 in 1954 if I remember my dates correctly. Bore dia is also different as the Russian/Soviet is .311-313 and US is .308. Couple other common 7.62 cartridges 7.62x25 Tokerov 7.62x28 Nagant 7.62x33 -.30 US Carbine 7.62x51R- .30 WCF or 30-30 7.62x63- .30 US Government Model of 1906 or 30-06 CD |
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Quoted:
Basically the 7.62 x 51 was the father to the commercial 308. Remember the M14? The 7.62 x 51 was developed for the M14 which is basically very similar in operation to the old M1 Garand. Both are piston type gas systems. As with the Garand which fires a 30-06 round, neither gas systems are designed to work with the more powerful commercially loaded 30-06 or 308 Win rounds. The Garand was designed to fire a less powerful 30-06 round known at M2 Ball which is a slightly less powered than a commercial 30-06 round. So when the M14 was developed it's ammo, the 7.62 x 51 round, was also loaded not as powerful and the commercial 308 Win that was later developed. Firing the more powerful commercial versions of the ammo may damage the gas system components on the Garand or M14/M1A. Although if I'm not mistaken the M1A may be a bit more tolerant and it's more of a headspace issue. It orginally was designed for the .276 Pederson cart, nixed by Gen. MacAurther and was chambered and approved for adoption using the M1 .30 cal cartridge (173gr FMJ BT) which was the standard service cartridge at the time. Actually it WAS designed with the 30-06 round. It was rechambered in 276 by Garand as requested during part of the competition phase in which it eventually won against the Pedersen 276 gun. Once it won all production of 276 ammo was halted and the guns were rechambered back to 30-06. |
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