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Posted: 10/8/2014 2:17:02 PM EDT
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I am now in the market for a new safe. I am now lost and overwhelmed with information. My biggest need is size. I would really like something 50 inches wide or larger, but I could settle for 40 inches. Must have fire rating for 60 minutes or more. Must hold at least 20 long guns. so those are the wanted specs, but i cannot decide which route to go. i am willing to spend up to 6k if needed, but I would much rather keep it around the 4k range. from what I can see Fort Knox is the industry standard, they just bleed quality. I recently looked at a browning black label and i really like the customization inside the safe, but I don't know if it built to the standard that Fort Knox is. So what do you guys think. thanks for any input. |
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I have a 7250 Fort Knox and am pleased with it. The big thing with Fort Knox is you can order more steel. I ordered mine through the safe place in California
The street price is lower than retail so don't use that as a comparison. I also like the redundant lock which is hard to find outside of ft knox. |
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I also like the redundant lock which is hard to find outside of ft knox. Redundant locks can be installed on just about any safe out there. Locks are interchangeable, so don't make the lock options offered from a particular manufacturer the deciding factor. but I don't know if it built to the standard that Fort Knox is. Which standard? Paint job? Steel thickness? $6k is a good budget. There are plenty of real burglary rated safes available in that ballpark. |
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He probably wants a gun interior. Which is not a problem. There are several high security safe manufacturers that offer gun interiors. For those that don't offer them factory, there are companies like mine that can put them in anything, new, used, and antique. In any case, he has to decide if he wants to put the budget into security, which is more beautiful to me, or fancy paint and chrome with less security, which is more beautiful to more people. And for that budget, he can get both, or more of one or another depending on his needs. |
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One issue with high security safes is that they are very heavy, and heavy means that normal movers cannot move them. So you are at the mercy of riggers or safe movers - and they can charge thousands of dollars to get a safe moved. Most of the people selling high security safes are perfectly capable of moving them. No need for movers (who don't usually know what they're doing), riggers, or independent safe movers. They are not expensive to move if it's not a difficult situation. I just put a gun safe in a basement a few months back. Cost the owner $3,000 because of the complexity. I can put a 6,000 pound safe into a garage for less than $500. |
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Quoted:
The street price is lower than retail so don't use that as a comparison. Absolutely! A good FK dealer will make it impossible for you to consider any other brand and will install for zero bucks. At least, that's how the good FK dealers around here do it. |
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Garages are easy. Inside the house costs a lot more. That's not true. I have had garage deliveries equally as difficult as in home deliveries. There's not a huge price difference. When you buy it, the dealer is very helpful. When you want to move it later, no so much. That's not true either. I have plenty of customers who have had me move their safes multiple times. I'm equally as helpful the 1st time as I am the 17th. |
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Personally I don't want the safe in my garage, but with a 4500 lb one, it would have to be as it would be the only way to not have an excessive moving expense. With a lighter safe, it is a lot more feasible to have it inside the house where stairs are involved.
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Personally I don't want the safe in my garage, but with a 4500 lb one, it would have to be as it would be the only way to not have an excessive moving expense. With a lighter safe, it is a lot more feasible to have it inside the house where stairs are involved.
I guess I'm confused. Earlier you were advising him to purchase one of those heavy safes: For $6000 I would get an Amsec TL-30 RF6528 or AmVaultx6. I cannot even think of a second choice. |
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He probably wants a gun interior. In any case, he has to decide if he wants to put the budget into security, which is more beautiful to me, or fancy paint and chrome with less security, which is more beautiful to more people. Quoted:
Quoted:There are several. More than I can count on both hands. He probably wants a gun interior. In any case, he has to decide if he wants to put the budget into security, which is more beautiful to me, or fancy paint and chrome with less security, which is more beautiful to more people. Why settle for one or the other? The Defender/Protector has plenty of security and looks great. Need more? We'll be happy to add more/ thicker steels, liners, ar500 or stainless steel. Even then a Fort Knox should still fit his price range. What you're getting is a hand built, custom vault to fit your specs, with attention to detail, made in the USA with a true lifetime warranty. Mac - PM me directly and I'll make sure you get a great deal. |
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Quoted:I guess I'm confused. Earlier you were advising him to purchase one of those heavy safes: I believe that is the best new gun safe for $6000, but I wanted to make sure that he realized that if he buys a heavy safe, he is in for expensive moves if he wants to relocate it. |
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What other contenders are you comparing it to, and what sets them ahead of the others? Quoted:
I believe that is the best new gun safe for $6000 What other contenders are you comparing it to, and what sets them ahead of the others? It has a UL TL30x6 rating, and the company has a well known track record. I am comparing it to every gun safe that is commonly known. Maybe you should list the dozen alternatives that you mentioned? That would give us all other brands to consider. |
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How many of these safes being discussed have you had the opportunity to see first hand?
It has a UL TL30x6 rating, and the company has a well known track record. I am comparing it to every gun safe Why aren't you comparing it to other UL TL30x6 safes? The AMSEC is a real safe with a gun interior. It's not built as a gun safe. There are other real safes, also available with gun safe interiors. Why aren't you mentioning any of them? |
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I don't know of any other UL TL30x6 gun safes. I think you should name your alternatives that are too numerous to count on both hands. Well you're in here acting as an authority on the matter. Shouldn't you already know? I'm not going to educate you so that you can use that information to further present yourself as somebody that knows what they're talking about. |
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I don't know of any other UL TL30x6 gun safes. I think you should name your alternatives that are too numerous to count on both hands. Well you're in here acting as an authority on the matter. Shouldn't you already know? I'm not going to educate you so that you can use that information to further present yourself as somebody that knows what they're talking about. Because I don't believe that there are any other UL T-30x6 gun safes in production. Not even one other one, let alone 11 or more as you say. And you have offered no evidence that there are. So if you want to prove me wrong, you have to show websites with these competing UL TL-30x6 gun safes. |
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Because I don't believe that there are any other UL T-30x6 gun safes in production. Not even one other one, let alone 11 or more as you say. And you have offered no evidence that there are. So if you want to prove me wrong, you have to show websites with these competing UL TL-30x6 gun safes. There are zero TL30x6 gun safes in production. There are TL30x6 high security safes in production, that can be purchased with a gun safe interior and perhaps a different paint job. And if the manufacturer doesn't offer it, guys like me do. So here is just further proof that you have no clue, and should limit your opinions to what you have first hand knowledge of. I'm not educating you. |
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Quoted:There are zero TL30x6 gun safes in production. There are TL30x6 high security safes in production, that can be purchased with a gun safe interior and perhaps a different paint job. And if the manufacturer doesn't offer it, guys like me do.
So here is just further proof that you have no clue, and should limit your opinions to what you have first hand knowledge of. I'm not educating you. Yes, we all know that anyone can have anything custom made. Cadillac made a custom chassis for the Presidential limousine. And yes, that is my pick because the company has a track record, and it will have better resale value to other gun owners because it is a known entity than saying "This started as a high-security safe from 1998 that Frank took in on trade, refurbished, and painted. Then he custom made a plywood interior to hold guns and upholstered it with carpet." |
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Quoted:There are zero TL30x6 gun safes in production. There is at least one because Amsec was smart enough to make it a part of their product line, even if the origin was a pre-existing non-gun safe. "2014 AMSEC Gun Safe Catalog" http://amsec.s3.amazonaws.com/literature/2014_AMSEC_GS_Cat.pdf "The new Amvaultx6 U.L. Listed TL-30x6, six-sided high-security gun safes are made in the United States using the latest testing procedures set forth by Underwriters Laboratories. The new revolutionary Amvaultx6 is constructed with a 3” defense barrier of inner and outer steel plates enclosing a unique interlocking heavy duty steel barrier, 12,000 PSI high-strength concrete and a high-density high-strength ceramic matrix." |
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There is at least one. Show me a link to the 11 or more others please. No, there's not one. What you're looking at is a standard production commercial safe, outfitted with a gun interior. AMSEC does not build that safe as a gun safe. They offer that safe with a gun safe trim package. I don't know why you can't understand my plain English. I am not educating you. I am not going to help you learn anything. I shouldn't have to help you learn anything, since you claim to know about all of the subjects you interject yourself into. "This started as a high-security safe from 1998 that Frank took in on trade, refurbished, and painted. Then he custom made a plywood interior to hold guns and upholstered it with carpet." I'm not on a first name basis with you. I will let you in on a few little known (to you) facts though. I have offered high security gun safes long before any manufacturer did. Some of my custom work sells for six figures. I'm well beyond plywood and carpet. 
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I know. Your projects look very nice. My point was that custom work has lower resale value compared to products that are in series production. I have finally learned to stop modifying guns and cars.
To be helpful to people reading this. Yes, you can go to a safe dealer and they can build you a gun interior for any high-security safe. Or you can get one from Amsec and see it in their catalog - and they are the only company who does this. I would get the Amsec. Likewise, now that you can buy an armored Mercedes direct from Mercedes, I would buy that rather than commission Count's Kustom to refurbish a Mercedes and add armor to it. http://blog.caranddriver.com/new-armored-mercedes-benz-s600-guard-invites-all-the-m60-rounds-you-can-muster/ |
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I have seen both of them at the Shot Show. My friend has a $5500 Fort Knox. I have some Amsec products. I don't know of any other UL TL30x6 gun safes. I think you should name your alternatives that are too numerous to count on both hands. Why dont we get this on record so newcomers to the forum understand your background. How many and what models of safes do you own? It seems like every few days i see you reference vaguely to having more years of interest and more different safes than a few days before when called out. Im starting to feel like your "experience" is increasing significantly by day and thats important for noobies to know when reading such strong opinions. Blindly reading your posts i would assume you had much more experience than frank. 
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Quoted:m starting to feel like your "experience" is increasing significantly by day and thats important for noobies to know when reading such strong opinions. Blindly reading your posts i would assume you had much more experience than frank. I have bought seven gun safes, three vault doors, five handgun safes, inspected safes at the Shot Show over 12 visits, maintain three alarm systems, and purchased high-security locks on several occasions. This has been over 19 years, and each time I spend dozen or hundreds of hours researching. Anyone getting advice from anyone should verify it. I was at Advance Auto parts yesterday buying oil for a Harley and the clerk advised me against using synthetic oil. He said it was too slippery. Do I believe him because he works as a dealer? Not automatically. Trust but verify. I note what he says, and then research it. I came to the conclusion that I was not going to follow his advice. When Mr Zykan says something, I take note of it, but still verify. He is a safe and vault door dealer, and favors what he does. I am a corporate purchaser with 26 years of professional shopping experience for the educational, firearms, and telecom industry. I am very good at filtering out advice from salesman/dealers and knowing when to listen and when to brush off what they say. Mr Zykan has much more specific safe knowledge, but the debate that we just had is more about the relative merits of commissioning custom pieces vs buying established products. It comes down to what is available, and there are times when either one is best for any specific buyer. Since this Amsec is a cataloged product from a large company with a strong reputation and it is sold by at least one dealer with a good reputation and at an attractive price, then it is an easy choice. If you want a red/white/blue airbrushed-art with an eagle paint job, then a small custom maker may win out. |
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Anyone getting advice from anyone should verify it. Who are they going to verify it with? Most people retailing safes really have no idea what they're selling. Want somebody like me to verify it? Why should I? You're not my customer. Why can't the person selling it be expected to know what they're selling? When Mr Zykan says something, I take note of it, but still verify. With who? Just curious about who's out there, that knows the things I know, that is talking to you about the things I say. He is a safe and vault door dealer, and favors what he does. Not really. I'm a full service safe and vault company. Selling safes is only a small part of what we do. Mr Zykan has much more specific safe knowledge, but the debate that we just had is more about the relative merits of commissioning custom pieces vs buying established products. It comes down to what is available, and there are times when either one is best for any specific buyer. Since this Amsec is a cataloged product from a large company with a strong reputation and it is sold by at least one dealer with a good reputation and at an attractive price, then it is an easy choice. If you want a red/white/blue airbrushed-art with an eagle paint job, then a small custom maker may win out.
Which shows that you don't really understand how the security market works. By the way, I am just finishing up a TRTL30X6 gun safe, and have it's twin sister available. How many established manufacturers have those for sale? they are the only company who does this. I would get the Amsec.
You can keep repeating this, and it's just as wrong the tenth time as it was the first. |
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Yes, I know you made a one-off for someone who one asked. Quit playing dumb. There are other safe manufacturers that offer a factory gun safe interior on their high security safes. AMSEC wasn't even the first. Not that it makes any difference who produces the interior. It has nothing to do with the safe itself, the warranty on the safe, the resale value of the safe, or anything else that you seem to be concerned about. One of them is so easy to find that I can hardly take anything you say seriously. It is obvious that you haven't even spent 30 seconds in an attempt to verify what I have said, contrary to all of your claims above. |
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I see what you are saying. The Original. Yes, that would qualify for what I was talking about. I dismissed it after seeing the Amsec because it is imported (not that there is anything wrong with that, but I would want to pay less, not more), and seems to be $1000 to $2000 more than the Amsec from Dean.
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I see what you are saying. No you don't. You really don't. The Original. Yes, that would qualify for what I was talking about. It sure would, wouldn't it? And how long did it take you to find it on Google? 30 seconds? So that kind of blows your credibility doesn't it? Not only do they exist (contrary to your claims), but they existed before the AMSEC. And they are not the only other example. I dismissed it after seeing the Amsec because it is imported (not that there is anything wrong with that, but I would want to pay less, not more), How could you have dismissed it, when you didn't even know it existed until 30 minutes ago? You've been going on and on about how safes like this don't exist, and AMSEC is the only one making them. and seems to be $1000 to $2000 more than the Amsec from Dean. They're less expensive than the AMSEC. Usually by the amount you mentioned. |
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Well, at least it proves that I am not searching for answers in real time. I dismissed that safe in the past then forgot about it as it didn't interest me. It is true that I have not searched recently, or else I would have seen it again.
They're less expensive than the AMSEC. Usually by the amount you mentioned. Do you mean less expensive than Amsec retail prices or Dean's prices? Because there is a thread on another forum where someone said they were quoted $8000 for the Original (not sure what size). I also noticed that Lakasafe said that they got the UL TL-30x6 label for the Original in 1998. Does that mean if the Amsec has a more recent label it may have passed a tougher test? The TL-30x6 Amsecs (from Dean) are all about $1.57 per lb (literally, it seems like they price them by the lb). The sale price on the Original is $3999 for a 1964 lb safe. That is $2 lb. They say to call for other sizes. The larger ones would have to be in the $1.13 to $1.36 per lb range to work out to be $1000 to $2000 cheaper on a 4000 lb model. But if you say you think they would do that if asked, it makes sense due to the competition. I can't say it would interest me as the Amsec seem like a good deal and I wouldn't have to buy an extra and destroy one to be sure of what I was getting. You said on another forum: The Original is a lower end import. Not that it's a bad safe, but it will not be the same quality as others. and For giggles, I'm looking at AMSEC's new TL30x6, which is a middle of the road unit So you agree the Amsec is better than Original. Although you don't seem to like Amsec as a company, as you also said: I certainly have my problems with AMSEC as a company, but they do build good safes. I still like the idea of the AmVault for a $6000 budget. |
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Well, at least it proves that I am not searching for answers in real time. I dismissed that safe in the past then forgot about it as it didn't interest me No, it proves yet again that you have no idea what you're talking about, and should stop giving advice on topics with which you are not knowledgeable. You're full of it. Had you known about that safe in the past, you wouldn't have said over, and over, and over again that there was no such thing. And if you're dismissing safes because they are imported, then you're dismissing some of the best built safes, with the highest ratings available, ever made on the planet earth. But you already knew that, right? Do you mean less expensive than Amsec retail prices or Dean's prices? Because there is a thread on another forum where someone said they were quoted $8000 for the Original (not sure what size) I guess that's what happens when the extent of your knowledge is based on Google and Ebay searches. As I have repeated over and over, you're not going to find the truth there. I also noticed that Lakasafe said that they got the UL TL-30x6 label for the Original in 1998. Does that mean if the Amsec has a more recent label it may have passed a tougher test? WHAT!?! You've been commenting on threads about UL ratings, AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS? Shocking! No, it doesn't mean that. The TL-30x6 Amsecs (from Dean) are all about $1.57 per lb (literally, it seems like they price them by the lb). The sale price on the Original is $3999 for a 1964 lb safe. That is $2 lb. They say to call for other sizes. The larger ones would have to be in the $1.13 to $1.36 per lb range to work out to be $1000 to $2000 cheaper on a 4000 lb model You clearly have a grasp on this business. Just like fruit at the grocery store, a safe's value is determined by the pound. Kilograms if you're in a country that uses the metric system. 
You said on another forum.......So you agree the Amsec is better than Original.....Although you don't seem to like Amsec as a company,. So you're internet stalking me?.........What does that have to do with anything? We aren't talking about what my opinion of one brand over another. We're talking about you presenting yourself as somebody who knows what they are talking about, when I just proved (again) that you're clueless.........I like AMSEC just fine. I sell all sorts of AMSEC safes. If you would have been paying attention during your stalking sessions, you may have noticed several posts regarding their products that I have sold, installed, and/or recovered from fires. |
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The OP asked for advice on a high-security gun safe up to $6000. I replied: "For $6000 I would get an Amsec TL-30 RF6528 or AmVaultx6." After all this back and forth, that is as good advice now as it was when I first said it. The only cataloged alternative is not as good, according to what you said in 2012. If you want to be helpful then just say that there are good values in used and refurbished safes such as what you offer for your business, and that one may want to consider that. My experience with used products is that there is always a good deal to be found if you are willing to put in the time and assume the risk.
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The OP asked for advice on a high-security gun safe up to $6000. No he didn't. I'm the one that brought up that for that budget he could purchase a higher security safe (factual, good advice). I replied: "For $6000 I would get an Amsec TL-30 RF6528 or AmVaultx6." And then stated it was the only option. (false, bad advice) After all this back and forth, that is as good advice now as it was when I first said it. You can't give credible advice without credible knowledge covering the advice you give. So no, your advice to buy the AMSEC is not good now, and it wasn't good then. The only cataloged alternative is not as good, according to what you said in 2012. There are other alternatives. Anybody seeking this information is best advised to step away from the internet, and contact a local professional that knows what they are talking about. If you want to be helpful If I want to be helpful? Between the two of us, I'm the only one that knows what he's talking about. I have been being helpful on these forums long before you decided to muck them up with your nonsense. Furthermore, I'm the only "company" giving this advice that is not schilling my own products. With all due respect to TSG and Fort Knox, they have a vested interest here. I do not. They may offer advice outside of their own product lines, but when it comes down to it, they want to sell safes they build. I'm not here selling safes. I'm here learning about topics I'm not well versed in. In exchange for getting that free education, I offer up information on topics I'm knowledgeable about. |
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Quoted:And then stated it was the only option. (false, bad advice) That was hyperbole. It is a literally device used for emphasis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole A normal response from you would be to chime in with your own perspective of being a custom vault and safe specialist. I am not going to suggest going to a local safe dealer with any expectation of finding a better deal. |
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That was hyperbole. It was? Then why did you make these statements? I don't know of any other UL TL30x6 gun safes.
I don't believe that there are any other UL T-30x6 gun safes in production. Not even one other one Those statements aren't hyperbole. Those statements are ignorance. You don't know what you're talking about, and on top of that, can't admit it when it's pointed out to you. A normal response from you would be to chime in with your own perspective of being a custom vault and safe specialist More ignorance, when it has already been point out to you that that's not all I am. You clearly don't have any understanding at all of what it is I do, or what it is I know. I am not going to suggest going to a local safe dealer with any expectation of finding a better deal. Based on your experience (zero) dealing with local safe professionals. Lots of credibility here. |
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Furthermore, I'm the only "company" giving this advice that is not schilling my own products. With all due respect to TSG and Fort Knox, they have a vested interest here. I do not. They may offer advice outside of their own product lines, but when it comes down to it, they want to sell safes they build. I'm not here selling safes. I'm here learning about topics I'm not well versed in. In exchange for getting that free education, I offer up information on topics I'm knowledgeable about. I have no problem recommending other's products and have many times in the past when they were better suited to a customer's needs. Yes, I am here to sell my own products. OP asked specifically about Fort Knox and I responded. Notice I don't jump into every thread screaming "Buy a Fort Knox!" because a Fort Knox ISN'T the right safe for everyone. Yes, I am the sales director here. My job is to sell Fort Knox Vaults. Our reason for becoming an industry partner however was to support the site because we care about the firearms and security communities. The sales take care of themselves. Our focus is making sure info gets out there and letting people buy the right safe for their needs. If it turns out to be a Fort Knox, great. We've been making them here for more than 30 years and sell them as fast as we can make them. Apart from that you have my engineer FTKNOX who replies to technical questions about locks etc., again with the intent of clarifying and being transparent in an industry plagued by misinformation. I appreciate all you have been doing to do the same. I've been so busy with my other duties that I couldn't give this thread the attention it deserves. |
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I have bought a safe from a real safe dealer in my state who delivered it. It was used and I ended up repainting it myself, and that was a mess. I should have just bought a new safe from an internet dealer for the same price and no sales tax. Well there's your problem. You can't tell the difference between a safe dealer and a safe company. Common mistake. But tell us more about this safe and its custom paint job. Who made it? What purpose did you buy it for? What paint scheme did you decide to go with? Did you alter the interior? |
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They say they are a "safe company" that provides safes to dealers, but their own branded safes appear to me to just be things that they buy from China and stick their label on. I can see very similar looking safes on Alibaba. This was about 16 years ago. I don't remember the brand of the safe. In fact, I am not even sure what the disposition of the safe is. I must have sold it with two larger gun safes that I wanted to get out of there. I took their advice on it and I should have been more hands-on and used my own judgement but it was one of those times that I over-trusted and preoccupied on other things. It wasn't very good.
I lived in a condo at the time, didn't have a paint booth or an outdoor location, and painted it in the garage using an air compressor. Bright yellow, which I know is not a common color for a safe. Yellow paint dust settled on a lot of things. I didn't give it an interior as it was pretty small and could only hold a few rifles. The goal of it was to just have a rifle kept at ready in the bedroom and not for bulk storage. I have a lot more space and tools now - welder, plasma cutter, lathe, mill, C02 laser cutter, compressors, etc. I could make a gun interior by laser cutting plywood or MDF and then covering it with laser-cut fabric. There have been a couple of times in my life when I just deferred to experts and regret it. Another one being my first alarm system. My friend was in charge of about 100 retail stores and so I asked him who would be best to put in a security system. He named the guy who did his stores, and said that he has used a lot of alarm guys, and this was the only good alarm guy that he found and most were terrible. Based on that recommendation, I basically let the guy do what he wanted without deciding on my own and telling him what to do. Aside from paying a lot (I think it was about $5000), and aside from paying his monitoring fee for ten years ($30 or so a month), he put the control box in a closet right near the entry door. So someone can break in and have a minute or two to pry open this box and unhook the phone line and bell. Seems like an amateur mistake. I recently took it over, and I picked the lock on the panel in under 15 seconds and then the programming code was written down inside the box, and I used that to change from his monitoring company to Alarm Relay and they are about $10 a month. So I am happier now, but should have done that 10 years ago. For my current alarm on a new house, I tracked down the alarm company that put in the system (previous owner would not answer questions because they didn't want to sell the house). Took me about 14 phone calls. Then I paid him for the programming code (he offered it for free, but I figured I should pay him as it would have cost me a lot if I had to reprogram everything). I took it over and learned how to program it. I put in an IP communicator and am only paying $10 a month for monitoring. With my new knowledge of programming the DSC alarms, I was able to add in a laundry water sensor, a wireless panic, and a PIR for the shed. It feels great to not be dependent on an alarm guy when I want to make a small change. Case in point, last night my wife set off the alarm by exiting a non-delayed door. We decided this should be a delayed door, and so I changed it in a few minutes. I have three vaults now. The only gun safes that I have left are two from National Security from the 1990s which I like very much as this was before there were sheet metal over drywall doors, and then five handgun safes with Simplex locks that are great for home defense. Three of them are very heavy duty but that company, R&D Enterprises, is out of business. Fort Knox has one like that now (Simplex and with decently-thick steel). |
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