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Misconceptions of transfers and licensees (Page 2 of 2)
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Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Shoot, I once got told at a UPS dist center that I couldn't ship a pistol to an out of state FFL unless I showed them a copy of the FFL! Effing asshats! How about this: can a customer ship a firearm to a local FFL at one or anther address? It doesn't matter if you are shipping to an FFL across the street or across the country.....the same ATF regs/Federal laws/ USPS regs/common carrier policies apply. Federal regulations do not apply in intrastate shipments. Seriously? 
Tell that to ATF and the USPS. |
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Shoot, I once got told at a UPS dist center that I couldn't ship a pistol to an out of state FFL unless I showed them a copy of the FFL! Effing asshats! How about this: can a customer ship a firearm to a local FFL at one or anther address? It doesn't matter if you are shipping to an FFL across the street or across the country.....the same ATF regs/Federal laws/ USPS regs/common carrier policies apply. Federal regulations do not apply in intrastate shipments. Seriously?
Tell that to ATF and the USPS. Yes, seriously. Every time 27CFR mentions shipment of firearms it is in conjunction with interstate or foreign commerce. Intrastate transportation is not mentioned. However, the BATF FAQs do mention intrastate mailings and shipments of firearms to unlicensed persons. See BATF FAQs B7 and B8, below There is nothing in the postal regulations prohibiting it either. Postal regulations also prohibit postal personnel from making interpretations of Federal firearms laws. Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. [18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)] Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30] |
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Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Shoot, I once got told at a UPS dist center that I couldn't ship a pistol to an out of state FFL unless I showed them a copy of the FFL! Effing asshats! How about this: can a customer ship a firearm to a local FFL at one or anther address? It doesn't matter if you are shipping to an FFL across the street or across the country.....the same ATF regs/Federal laws/ USPS regs/common carrier policies apply. Federal regulations do not apply in intrastate shipments. Seriously?
Tell that to ATF and the USPS. Yes, seriously. Every time 27CFR mentions shipment of firearms it is in conjunction with interstate or foreign commerce. Intrastate transportation is not mentioned. However, the BATF FAQs do mention intrastate mailings and shipments of firearms to unlicensed persons. See BATF FAQs B7 and B8, below There is nothing in the postal regulations prohibiting it either. You are forgetting that there are NUMEROUS Federal regulations that apply no matter where a firearm is being shipped. 1. Only a licensed dealer or manufacturer can mail anything other than a rifle or shotgun. Average Joe mails a handgun, a frame, an AR lower or a PGO shotgun to a buddy in the same state he violates Federal law. 2. Except for the return of a firearm, dealers cannot use a common carrier OR the USPS to ship to nonlicensees. 3. All ATF regulations regarding firearm transactions still apply.......but do not prohibit transactions between nonlicensed residents from the same state as long as the seller has no reason to believe the buyer is prohibited from possessing a firearm. |
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You are correct that several different regulations might apply. I was only referring to 27CFR and shipments between individuals in the same State.
There are also numerous exceptions to the regulations that allow shipments of firearms to unlicensed persons by both dealers and other unlicensed individuals. However, most of these exceptions are not often used and the vast majority of those shipments will be the return of a firearm from repair. |
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Originally Posted By wmjlar15:
If I'm barred from having people show up at my licensed premises to pick up firearms (zoning ordinance). Is it possible to drive it to the customer or meet somewhere to complete the physical transfer? Originally Posted By wmjlar15:
If I'm barred from having people show up at my licensed premises to pick up firearms (zoning ordinance). Is it possible to drive it to the customer or meet somewhere to complete the physical transfer? No. I'm surprised that you received an FFL if you can't actually conduct business at your premises. ATF regs are very clear that your license only allows you to conduct business at two locations: 1. the licensed premises 2. a gun show or other special event. §478.50 Locations covered by license.
The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except: (a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse; (b) A licensed collector may acquire curios and relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to other persons who are residents of the State where the collector's license is held and the disposition is made; (c) A licensee may conduct business at a gun show pursuant to the provision of §478.100; or (d) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location pursuant to the provisions of §478.100. [T.D. ATF-191, 49 FR 46890, Nov. 29, 1984, as amended by T.D. ATF-401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998] §478.100 Conduct of business away from licensed premises.
(a)(1) A licensee may conduct business temporarily at a gun show or event as defined in paragraph (b) if the gun show or event is located in the same State specified on the license: Provided, That such business shall not be conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. The premises of the gun show or event at which the licensee conducts business shall be considered part of the licensed premises. Accordingly, no separate fee or license is required for the gun show or event locations. However, licensees shall comply with the provisions of §478.91 relating to posting of licenses (or a copy thereof) while conducting business at the gun show or event. (2) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location. (b) A gun show or an event is a function sponsored by any national, State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community. (c) Licensees conducting business at locations other than the premises specified on their license under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner prescribed by subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms transactions conducted at such locations shall include the location of the sale or other disposition, be entered in the acquisition and disposition records of the licensee, and retained on the premises specified on the license. [T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10498, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF-401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998] |
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I was asking if it was possible I do not have a FFL license, my zoning is giving me grief over people stopping by to pick up guns. # 6 below is said to include cars parked outside my home which is BS cause there are other FFL's within a blocks radius of me.
example belwo Home Occupations are allowed as a permitted accessory use as long as the following conditions are met: (1) The home occupation is operated entirely within the principal dwelling and only by the person or persons maintaining a residence therein; and (2) The home occupation does not have a separate entrance from outside the building; and (3) The building is not altered in such a way that any portion thereof is no longer suitable for residential use; and (4) The home occupation is limited to no more than twenty-five percent 25% of the total floor area on any one level; and (5) The home occupation does not utilize equipment except that which is customarily found in residential dwellings; and (6) There is no external evidence of the home occupation, (including, but not limited to, commercial vehicles and outdoor storage) except for one (1) non-animated, non-illuminated wall sign having an area of not more than one (1) square foot. |
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Originally Posted By Bubbles: Originally Posted By NAM: I am not shipping shit unless I can verify the recipient is an FFL. That means a copy of an FFL. Sure, I am not legally required to have a copy of the FFL, but I can not legally ship it across state lines to someone that is not an FFL. Fortunately there is FFL EZ Check for non-licensees. |
Funny how brave are the little chipmunks when posting from the security of their Mom's basement
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Originally Posted By PK90:
Page 8 |
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Originally Posted By Grendelsbane:
ATF broke the link- what was this pointing to? |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
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Originally Posted By Maryland_Shooter: You don't and I'd never ship to anyplace that is not listed as the FFL address. I guess my question then would be, if the FFL has a physical and a mailing address that are different, which address should one ship to? Should one ask the FFL which they prefer, and is either address still considered legal? |
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Originally Posted By sf46: I guess my question then would be, if the FFL has a physical and a mailing address that are different, which address should one ship to? Should one ask the FFL which they prefer, and is either address still considered legal? Most ship to the premises by default. Those of us that want shipments to an address other than the premises make it pretty damn clear where to ship to. You should also understand that UPS/FedEx/etc do not deliver to USPS post office boxes, only the USPS can do that. As noted in the ATF FFL Newsletter links above, any address where a licensee wants to receive a firearm shipment is legal. There is no requirement to show it on the FFL. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
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Originally Posted By sf46: I guess my question then would be, if the FFL has a physical and a mailing address that are different, which address should one ship to? Should one ask the FFL which they prefer, and is either address still considered legal? If it is not indicated on the copy of the FFL that I am sent, then I ask, because I am not a mind reader. I had one FFL ask that UPS/FedEx go to the premises address and USPS shipments go to his PO Box mailing address. |
Heller II - Challenging DC's bans on semi-automatic rifles, large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, and its onerous and expensive handgun registration process. http://www.HellerFoundation.org/
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Originally Posted By wmjlar15: I was asking if it was possible I do not have a FFL license, my zoning is giving me grief over people stopping by to pick up guns. # 6 below is said to include cars parked outside my home which is BS cause there are other FFL's within a blocks radius of me. example belwo Home Occupations are allowed as a permitted accessory use as long as the following conditions are met: (1) The home occupation is operated entirely within the principal dwelling and only by the person or persons maintaining a residence therein; and (2) The home occupation does not have a separate entrance from outside the building; and (3) The building is not altered in such a way that any portion thereof is no longer suitable for residential use; and (4) The home occupation is limited to no more than twenty-five percent 25% of the total floor area on any one level; and (5) The home occupation does not utilize equipment except that which is customarily found in residential dwellings; and (6) There is no external evidence of the home occupation, (including, but not limited to, commercial vehicles and outdoor storage) except for one (1) non-animated, non-illuminated wall sign having an area of not more than one (1) square foot. Are they zoned the same as you? I'd cite them as examples to your zoning department. They are clearly misinterpreting rule 6, especially if there are other FFLs with the same zoning as you, unless they were grandfathered with a zoning change. One person at a time picking up guns is no different than a friend visiting. |
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Originally Posted By IHTFP08: Are they zoned the same as you? I'd cite them as examples to your zoning department. They are clearly misinterpreting rule 6, especially if there are other FFLs with the same zoning as you, unless they were grandfathered with a zoning change. One person at a time picking up guns is no different than a friend visiting. He was asking that 6 years ago so he's probably figured it out by now... 
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom: No. I'm surprised that you received an FFL if you can't actually conduct business at your premises. ATF regs are very clear that your license only allows you to conduct business at two locations: 1. the licensed premises 2. a gun show or other special event. They sell on the internet only, and their listings usually say something like "NO local pickups". So, even with a local buyer, they have to ship to another local FFL who can do the transfer. |
“As long as none of us gets hurt, we’re making memories.” - one GA trooper to another after shooting HOSTAGE 9 times
Their SHAME has become their PRIDE
Their SHAME has become their PRIDE
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Originally Posted By Jodan1776: Actually, there are now a lot of FFLs out there who are prohibited by local law/zoning from any sales, transfer, or business at their licensed premises (usually their home). They sell on the internet only, and their listings usually say something like "NO local pickups". So, even with a local buyer, they have to ship to another local FFL who can do the transfer. I know. I do the local transfers for a Top 100 GunBroker seller. He lives in an HOA and cannot have walk up traffic to his home. "Internet only" is perfectly fine with ATF. It may not be with your local zoning or HOA. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
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Gents, An update to some of the guidance above (which was correct at the time of posting, but is now outdated): The federal DOJ has determined that 18 USC § 1715 is unconstitutional. This is the federal ban on mailing of concealable firearms (handguns, SBR's, SBS's, silencers, etc) by non-licensees. This means that ANYONE can now use the USPS to send a handgun to any location they previously could lawfully send one by common carrier. Further, the Feds have moved to update 39 CFR 111 and 211 to reflect this new guidance. While this doesn't affect a licensee directly (we could always mail handguns), it does open up the ability for a non-licensee to mail a handgun, etc. to a licensee in any state, or to another legal recipient in the same state. This is a fantastic win for Americans, and an important step in the continued fight to protect our 2A rights. Please spread this info amongst our fellow licensees so it gets out far and wide. And use it! I had a client send me a pistol the other day from Georgia, in the mail. He was shocked he could do it, but when I sent him the info, he tossed it in a box and I got it a couple days later. Easy Peasy. Here's the statute, the DOJ's opinion letter, and the proposed rule working its way through the process into the CFR: 18 USC § 1715 DOJ Opinion Letter on Constitutionality of 18 USC § 1715 Proposed Rule 39 CFR §§ 111, 211 |
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Originally Posted By pevrs114: ....This means that ANYONE can now use the USPS to send a handgun to any location they previously could lawfully send one by common carrier. ... Careful. It's not "now", but "soon". While DOJ has said they believe the restriction is unconstitutional and they won't prosecute violators, USPS has not changed their regulations. Until then, nonlicensees mailing firearms other than rifles or shotguns might find their package delayed if not seized. Revised Mailing Standards for Firearms is not yet in effect as the comment period does not end until 5/4/26. Mail or deliver written comments to the Director, Product Classification, U.S. Postal Service, 475 L'Enfant Plaza SW, Room 4446, Washington, DC 20260-5015. If sending comments by email, include the name and address of the commenter and send to [email protected], with a subject line of “Shipping Firearms.” Faxed comments will not be accepted. There are several state AG's objecting to this change, so it will likely wind up in court. Postal Workers Union too: APWU Files Amicus Brief Supporting the Prohibition to Mail Concealable Handguns |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
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I just had a firearm returned from an FFL in GA (big name, site sponsor) that was shipped thru shipmygun.com, stating they cannot receive from a private seller. In 25+ years selling personal firearms out of state this is my first returned item, now Im out the shipping fee and need to pay a local FFL to ship the gun. If anyone knows a reputable FFL in Savannah, GA, Im all ears. |
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Originally Posted By FrankW134: I just had a firearm returned from an FFL in GA (big name, site sponsor) that was shipped thru shipmygun.com, stating they cannot receive from a private seller. In 25+ years selling personal firearms out of state this is my first returned item, now Im out the shipping fee and need to pay a local FFL to ship the gun. If anyone knows a reputable FFL in Savannah, GA, Im all ears. 1) They can legally receive a long gun shipped from a private seller, they are choosing not to as a business policy. 2) Since you shipped the firearm to them for transfer of ownership versus gunsmithing, legally they can't ship it back to you. |
Heller II - Challenging DC's bans on semi-automatic rifles, large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, and its onerous and expensive handgun registration process. http://www.HellerFoundation.org/
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Originally Posted By FrankW134: I just had a firearm returned from an FFL in GA (big name, site sponsor) that was shipped thru shipmygun.com, stating they cannot receive from a private seller. Originally Posted By FrankW134: I just had a firearm returned from an FFL in GA (big name, site sponsor) that was shipped thru shipmygun.com, stating they cannot receive from a private seller. Who chose the receiving dealer? If it was the buyer, that's on him. He'll need to fork over the $ to get the item reshipped. As far as "they cannot receive from a private seller".......they did that the minute they opened the box. In order to get your gun back, they'll have to ship to an FFL in your state. In 25+ years selling personal firearms out of state this is my first returned item, now Im out the shipping fee and need to pay a local FFL to ship the gun. In my almost eighteen years of holding my FFL, not a week has gone by that someone, somewhere complains that FFL Bob won't receive from a nonlicensee. Buyers have the responsibility to find a dealer who will. Otherwise, pay extra. If anyone knows a reputable FFL in Savannah, GA, Im all ears. That ain't your job.  |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
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Originally Posted By -JC-: Many Dealers have a fear, that by giving out a copy of their license, they might have a bad customer who intends to use the FFL to acquire firearms in person without having them legally transferred to the Dealer. The Dealer could potentially never know of the transfer taking place, and would never be able to find out, until the ATF calls to verify a trace on the weapon (assuming they are used in a crime.) . Let’s assume that happens. Some asshole gets a copy of Billy Bob’s FFL and successfully presents it in person to facilitate a face to face transfer. Some time later the gun asshole acquired fraudulently is subject to an ATF trace. Billy Bob gets the call and checks his records. “Nope. You’re mistaken. The gun in question was never in my possession. There has been a mistake.” What happens then? |
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Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Let’s assume that happens. Some asshole gets a copy of Billy Bob’s FFL and successfully presents it in person to facilitate a face to face transfer.  Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Let’s assume that happens. Some asshole gets a copy of Billy Bob’s FFL and successfully presents it in person to facilitate a face to face transfer. Any dealer with more than one brain cell should understand that presenting an FFL isn't proof that the person is actually the licensee or that the FFL is valid.  If its an FFL issued to a sole proprietor, then that person should have a drivers license that matches the name on that FFL. If its to an LLC or corporation, than the person presenting the FFL can also present their photo ID. Simply run the FFL through EzCheck, record the info on the DL. Some time later the gun asshole acquired fraudulently is subject to an ATF trace. Billy Bob gets the call and checks his records. “Nope. You’re mistaken. The gun in question was never in my possession. There has been a mistake.” What happens then? Then ATF goes back to the previous licensee and asks for shipping records or in the case of a face to face , documentation that they did their due diligence. "But, but, but he had an FFL" ain't good enough. Heres a fake FFL from a few years ago: Attached File See where they messed up? The expiration date in the top right is crooked and the idiot forgot to change the expiration date on the FFL "Information Card" at the bottom left.  |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
Misconceptions of transfers and licensees (Page 2 of 2)
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