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Posted: 9/14/2009 6:50:06 PM EDT
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Ever get asked to do an off the books transfer? We're averaging one request a year so far.
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Ever get asked to do an off the books transfer? We're averaging one request a year so far. Can you elaborate more? Do you mean like a face-to-face transfer? Why would a person even approach an FFL if they wanted an "off the books" transfer? I'm new in the FFL forum, so pardon my ignorance on this one. |
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Ok, here's the two we've had so far.
The first guy came in to see us. He walks in with an 80% 1919 receiver and a complete parts kit, and wants to know if we'll build it out for him. Not a problem - we've got the tools to do it, and we're licensed as an 07. We give him a timeline of when we can complete the work, and about how much it will cost (all labor charges). We also explain that since this is "manufacturing a firearm" versus "gunsmithing" that when he picks it up he'll have to fill out the 4473 and get run through NICS. Once NICS is mentioned the guy gets belligerent and tells us he doesn't want the gun "registered" to him. We tell him we can't help him then, and he needs to get his stuff and leave. At this point he yells that "all of us gunmakers are a bunch of crooks" (as in, we're not the first ones to turn him down) and he doesn't want the damned thing any more. So, DH drafts up an abandoned property receipt for the receiver and parts kit, the guy signs it, and storms out. We get his plate # and call the local po-po non-emergency line just to give them the heads-up. Never heard another word. The second guy called us on the phone last week. The caller ID displayed "out of area", which isn't unusual given our locale. The guy started off normally enough, asked about the features of Glocks and Berettas, which would most likely be the better choice of firearm, etc. Then he tells us that he wants us to transfer it to him privately, as in - the gun comes in, it gets logged out to (and a 4473 run on), me or DH, and then the gun gets handed to him in a private sale. The guy says that he can't pass NICS but that he'll "make it worth our while" but never throws out a number. We tell him that it's not going to happen, and he gets pretty persistent. We finally let him know that all calls to the business are recorded (they are) and he says something rude and hangs up. #1 was a random nut. #2 I'd lay money was a setup.  The 1919 is now on Form 2.
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We have had people ask if the guns "have paper" at gun shows, but so far never had a person offer us money to do a off the book transfer. Something about the up to ten years and $250,000 fine plus the loss of the business just makes that extra $100 look real small.
We are three miles from the Oklahoma border so our biggest problem is an Okie wanting to buy a handgun. We tell him it must transfer thru an Oklahoma dealer, the customer will say thats no problem I will have my Friend/Family member/etc buy it for me since they live in Kansas....  Then we must explain that it is a straw purchase, we will not do that, they must go thru a Oklahoma dealer or there is no sale.
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The first guy came in to see us. He walks in with an 80% 1919 receiver and a complete parts kit, and wants to know if we'll build it out for him. Not a problem - we've got the tools to do it, and we're licensed as an 07. We give him a timeline of when we can complete the work, and about how much it will cost (all labor charges). We also explain that since this is "manufacturing a firearm" versus "gunsmithing" that when he picks it up he'll have to fill out the 4473 and get run through NICS. Once NICS is mentioned the guy gets belligerent and tells us he doesn't want the gun "registered" to him. We tell him we can't help him then, and he needs to get his stuff and leave. At this point he yells that "all of us gunmakers are a bunch of crooks" (as in, we're not the first ones to turn him down) and he doesn't want the damned thing any more. So, DH drafts up an abandoned property receipt for the receiver and parts kit, the guy signs it, and storms out. We get his plate # and call the local po-po non-emergency line just to give them the heads-up. Never heard another word.
I was told by the ATF agent during my interview (I have an 01 and 07) that if a customer brings me his parts for assembly that I am not manufacturing and it was considered gunsmithing and that if you assembled your parts and sold them as a completed firearm it was manufacturing. Was the 80% receiver not stamped with a SN? If not what you are saying makes sense to me then. Otherwise I am not so sure it was manufacturing. Can you clarify? Thanks, Scott |
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Quoted:
The first guy came in to see us. He walks in with an 80% 1919 receiver and a complete parts kit, and wants to know if we'll build it out for him. Not a problem - we've got the tools to do it, and we're licensed as an 07. We give him a timeline of when we can complete the work, and about how much it will cost (all labor charges). We also explain that since this is "manufacturing a firearm" versus "gunsmithing" that when he picks it up he'll have to fill out the 4473 and get run through NICS. Once NICS is mentioned the guy gets belligerent and tells us he doesn't want the gun "registered" to him. We tell him we can't help him then, and he needs to get his stuff and leave. At this point he yells that "all of us gunmakers are a bunch of crooks" (as in, we're not the first ones to turn him down) and he doesn't want the damned thing any more. So, DH drafts up an abandoned property receipt for the receiver and parts kit, the guy signs it, and storms out. We get his plate # and call the local po-po non-emergency line just to give them the heads-up. Never heard another word.
I was told by the ATF agent during my interview (I have an 01 and 07) that if a customer brings me his parts for assembly that I am not manufacturing and it was considered gunsmithing and that if you assembled your parts and sold them as a completed firearm it was manufacturing. Was the 80% receiver not stamped with a SN? If not what you are saying makes sense to me then. Otherwise I am not so sure it was manufacturing. Can you clarify? Thanks, Scott "80% receiver" means the receiver is not a Firearm. Thus by fiinishing it into a firearm they were MFG. If he had brought in a firearm receiver, and all they did was assemble, then it is gunsmithiing. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
The first guy came in to see us. He walks in with an 80% 1919 receiver and a complete parts kit, and wants to know if we'll build it out for him. Not a problem - we've got the tools to do it, and we're licensed as an 07. We give him a timeline of when we can complete the work, and about how much it will cost (all labor charges). We also explain that since this is "manufacturing a firearm" versus "gunsmithing" that when he picks it up he'll have to fill out the 4473 and get run through NICS. Once NICS is mentioned the guy gets belligerent and tells us he doesn't want the gun "registered" to him. We tell him we can't help him then, and he needs to get his stuff and leave. At this point he yells that "all of us gunmakers are a bunch of crooks" (as in, we're not the first ones to turn him down) and he doesn't want the damned thing any more. So, DH drafts up an abandoned property receipt for the receiver and parts kit, the guy signs it, and storms out. We get his plate # and call the local po-po non-emergency line just to give them the heads-up. Never heard another word.
I was told by the ATF agent during my interview (I have an 01 and 07) that if a customer brings me his parts for assembly that I am not manufacturing and it was considered gunsmithing and that if you assembled your parts and sold them as a completed firearm it was manufacturing. Was the 80% receiver not stamped with a SN? If not what you are saying makes sense to me then. Otherwise I am not so sure it was manufacturing. Can you clarify? Thanks, Scott "80% receiver" means the receiver is not a Firearm. Thus by fiinishing it into a firearm they were MFG. If he had brought in a firearm receiver, and all they did was assemble, then it is gunsmithiing. If you assemble a receiver into a complete firearm, it is considered manufacturing and is also subject to FET taxes (unless you manufacture less than 50 guns per year). If you are just installing an LPK then you're not manufacturing. If you add the stock, upper, barrel, etc, you have manufacturered a rifle. The receiver has changed types from a receiver to rifle/pistol. |
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The first guy came in to see us. He walks in with an 80% 1919 receiver and a complete parts kit, and wants to know if we'll build it out for him. Not a problem - we've got the tools to do it, and we're licensed as an 07. We give him a timeline of when we can complete the work, and about how much it will cost (all labor charges). We also explain that since this is "manufacturing a firearm" versus "gunsmithing" that when he picks it up he'll have to fill out the 4473 and get run through NICS. Once NICS is mentioned the guy gets belligerent and tells us he doesn't want the gun "registered" to him. We tell him we can't help him then, and he needs to get his stuff and leave. At this point he yells that "all of us gunmakers are a bunch of crooks" (as in, we're not the first ones to turn him down) and he doesn't want the damned thing any more. So, DH drafts up an abandoned property receipt for the receiver and parts kit, the guy signs it, and storms out. We get his plate # and call the local po-po non-emergency line just to give them the heads-up. Never heard another word.
I was told by the ATF agent during my interview (I have an 01 and 07) that if a customer brings me his parts for assembly that I am not manufacturing and it was considered gunsmithing and that if you assembled your parts and sold them as a completed firearm it was manufacturing. Was the 80% receiver not stamped with a SN? If not what you are saying makes sense to me then. Otherwise I am not so sure it was manufacturing. Can you clarify? Thanks, Scott "80% receiver" means the receiver is not a Firearm. Thus by fiinishing it into a firearm they were MFG. If he had brought in a firearm receiver, and all they did was assemble, then it is gunsmithiing. If you assemble a receiver into a complete firearm, it is considered manufacturing and is also subject to FET taxes (unless you manufacture less than 50 guns per year). If you are just installing an LPK then you're not manufacturing. If you add the stock, upper, barrel, etc, you have manufacturered a rifle. The receiver has changed types from a receiver to rifle/pistol. That is what I said. |
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In Revenue Ruling 55-342, ATF's predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the terms
"manufacturer" and "dealer" for the purpose of firearms licensing under the Federal Firearms Act, the precursor statute to the GCA. It was determined that a licensed dealer could assemble firearms from component parts on an individual basis, but could not engage in the business of assembling firearms from component parts in quantity lots for purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer's license. Since then, ATF has similarly and consistently interpreted the term "manufacturer" under the GCA to mean any person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting, assembly, alteration, or otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution. The quote above was from one of the most recent ATF Rulings. |
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Quoted:
We have had people ask if the guns "have paper" at gun shows, but so far never had a person offer us money to do a off the book transfer. Something about the up to ten years and $250,000 fine plus the loss of the business just makes that extra $100 look real small.
We are three miles from the Oklahoma border so our biggest problem is an Okie wanting to buy a handgun. We tell him it must transfer thru an Oklahoma dealer, the customer will say thats no problem I will have my Friend/Family member/etc buy it for me since they live in Kansas.... Then we must explain that it is a straw purchase, we will not do that, they must go thru a Oklahoma dealer or there is no sale.but i can come up there and buy a rife right? 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
We have had people ask if the guns "have paper" at gun shows, but so far never had a person offer us money to do a off the book transfer. Something about the up to ten years and $250,000 fine plus the loss of the business just makes that extra $100 look real small.
We are three miles from the Oklahoma border so our biggest problem is an Okie wanting to buy a handgun. We tell him it must transfer thru an Oklahoma dealer, the customer will say thats no problem I will have my Friend/Family member/etc buy it for me since they live in Kansas.... Then we must explain that it is a straw purchase, we will not do that, they must go thru a Oklahoma dealer or there is no sale.but i can come up there and buy a rife right? Rifle or shotgun is good to go...
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Quoted: It seems like I get that every month. I usually just explain there is no gun "registry". Just my local records. 80% of them didn't know that and then fill out the 4473 and carry on. They other 20% either don't believe me, or know they wont pass. I've had to explain exactly that at nearly every gunshow I do. |
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