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Posted: 12/22/2010 11:01:11 AM EDT
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Just wondering how many rounds you guys have put through your guns.
500 Flawless Rounds. First 200 was put through as fast as magazines could be inserted into the gun. |
) never a hitch.
| I did have a part break on mine at around the 4-5K mark. The bolt cam sheared itself off while firing. I shot about 800 rounds that day and didn't notice until I took it aprt to clean it later. Not a failure, but I'll say that it did stop me until I had a replacement sent out(Thanks Dave!!). |
Got an E-4 with just over 10,000 rds......badly abused and overheated many many times. Run a can on it a lot. Will eat junk ammo without fail. By junk ammo I mean ammo with bent bullets, creased and dented cases, stuff that just almost will go thru a chamber gauge. I love the M-16 and run the hell out of mine, but it will not feed the same crap ammo the E-4 will, and will never take the heat like the E-4. Broken parts so far on the E-4......tore the fingers off the bolt sleeve........broken parts on the M-16 with 18,000 rds.......... 2 broken bolts, 1 melted gas tube, 2 broken hammer pins, 1 bent bolt catch, 1 barrel replaced due to ate out gas port. Will check back in with the E-4 @ 20,000 rds 
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2 E4s (16inch barrels) both with just over 1500 rounds (each) through them with ZERO issues and no failures to feed, fire, extract, or eject. Shoots anything I put in it as far as brand (Wolff included). Both have been run suppressed and un-suppressed and I have never needed to adjust the gas settings (other then to play with the switch) to make it reliable.
Love the MSAR E4s and plan to keep on running them. |
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Got an E-4 with just over 10,000 rds......badly abused and overheated many many times.
Wow! That will take my probably 9 or more years to reach that same amount. But, it's really good to know that an E4 can take it! Mine has only a few hundred rounds- w/ no malfunction, of course. |
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I'd guess just over 2,000. Most of that was in the first 6 months. I got an E4 barrel and have only put about 500 through since then.
It eats anything and has hasn't had any broken parts. I'd shoot it more if I was setup to reload .556. Lately my Glocks and GSG5 have been getting all my love. |
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500+ rounds of all different kinds and quality. It didn't want to cycle reliably the first 20 rounds then started cycling but not locking back on an empty mag. It started locking back every time at 40 rounds.
Since then, it's just like me: Eats anything and comes back for more, even if it's bad. 
I think most of the initial trouble was due to my barrel having been shortened, which reduces pressure to the gas system. It took good bit of money and patience to get it the way I wanted but none of that was related to reliability or defects. I used to want an AUG USR in the worst way but wouldn't trade my STG for one now... |
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And of those 5 all said they were fixed (2 bolt sleeves an a cam pin) or were break in ( first 200 rds) or an ammo problem (1 round of crappy Tula). None of these (but the stuck case) resulted in a failure to operate but were noted at takedown.
Way to hit that glass 1/2 empty there buddy! 
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I'd be more interested in how many failures were on current production models. If the failure points on earlier models have been fixed, then that makes the present model better, I think.
Lots of failures on AR's in the past have led to a much more reliable, robust AR today. |
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STG-556 GEN 2 upgraded with GEN 3 stock and improved hammer pack. Also have new extractor. I run an Inventure Concepts Tri-Rail and MSAR E4 optics rail. Around 5,000 rounds. Mix of XM193 Federal, .223 Brown Bear, Prvi Partizan M855, PMC M855, IMI M855, some TAP Hornady 75 gr. No malfunctions no failures. Inspections show no usual wear. Bolt sleeve is in good shape. Barrel seems in good shape and have had no shift in POI. Worst complaint is wear of finish on the receiver around the charging handle slot. |
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I would expect to see problems with broken Extractors from early models. I would expect to see broken bolt sleeves (known issue with this design for decades). I would expect to see various heat treatment issues (this has happened with many manufactures). I'll tell you though you can find posts of folks having defective parts with their FNH SCAR. There is no mass produced rifle in the world that hasn't had a failure of some type or a defective part. People here get real spooked about that stuff and I used to be one of them as well, but spend enough time looking hard enough at other rifles and you'll find failures and defects.  Grass always looks greener until you're actually standing on top of it. |
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To be sure far more guns have had issues than should have (in an ideal world 0% would have failures), but random responses on the internet simply cannot be taken as a statistical model of the whole. I've been following MSAR since way before they even shipped a rifle, and have had my finger on the pulse of the AUG/clone world for a while now. I've owned them all. I can't say much due to gentlemen's agreements on what has been shared with me, but there are enough serious issues to keep me from owning a MSAR rifle at this time. I hope they can improve their QC and make a rifle that puts the Austrians to shame. I know that the talent exists in this country to make this happen, but big egos and talent can sometimes be volatile in close proximity. That's all I've got to say about that.
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To be sure far more guns have had issues than should have (in an ideal world 0% would have failures), but random responses on the internet simply cannot be taken as a statistical model of the whole. I've been following MSAR since way before they even shipped a rifle, and have had my finger on the pulse of the AUG/clone world for a while now. I've owned them all. I can't say much due to gentlemen's agreements on what has been shared with me, but there are enough serious issues to keep me from owning a MSAR rifle at this time. I hope they can improve their QC and make a rifle that puts the Austrians to shame. I know that the talent exists in this country to make this happen, but big egos and talent can sometimes be volatile in close proximity. That's all I've got to say about that. I completely agree with everything you say. |
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To be sure far more guns have had issues than should have (in an ideal world 0% would have failures), but random responses on the internet simply cannot be taken as a statistical model of the whole. I've been following MSAR since way before they even shipped a rifle, and have had my finger on the pulse of the AUG/clone world for a while now. I've owned them all. I can't say much due to gentlemen's agreements on what has been shared with me, but there are enough serious issues to keep me from owning a MSAR rifle at this time. I hope they can improve their QC and make a rifle that puts the Austrians to shame. I know that the talent exists in this country to make this happen, but big egos and talent can sometimes be volatile in close proximity. That's all I've got to say about that. Knowing what i know about MSAR.....i would agree with that ... |
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It has everything to do with the fact that a small business has to make hard economic choices on where they spend their money and obviously folks are going to have different opinions about those types of decisions. Former employees have serious beef with their former employer who laid them off. No shock there really is there? They're going to point out areas where they differed with the boss and obviously make it appear as though their opinion was correct and his was wrong. However, we never get the other side of the story and we never have the full picture of what went on. To make matters worse those same former employees had nothing but great things to say while they were collecting a pay check so do we take their words in the past as true or their words in the present as truth? Hard to know what to believe when folks change their tune. Those Austrian/Sabre Defence rifles retail for around $1,900 on average. In the case of the STG-556 that's nearly the cost of two STG556 rifles for one Steyr AUG A3. Steyr discontinued their rifles, because they were not selling well enough. Those rifles were produced with very expensive manufacturing machines/tooling, but as high quality as they were they couldn't sell due to the high price point that resulted. The differences between the two rifles are marginal as well. Both use cast parts, both use button rifling, and so forth. The only real difference is that Steyr has a lot more automation and consistentcy due solely to their ability to spend more on production thanks to their MIL contracts. Again though you pay for that difference and it's no guarantee that you'll never have issues. Frankly once you get to the $2K range there are rifles that are built using better production methods as well. Sure MSAR could produce more consistently then Steyr/Sabre, but that type of production would add to the cost of the rifle because it doesn't come for free. People who refuse to support small US companies, because overnight they don't have the money to invest in every bit of equipment that a foreign military contractor are selling and then wish that U.S. companies did better...well.  Even if MSAR could afford to do the exact same method of production they probably, like Steyr, would end up with a rifle that nobody could really purchase. My MSAR STG-556 is a good rifle. I'm certain it could be manufactured to even a higher degree of quality, but I'm happy with it. Rome wasn't built in a day and I'm sure Tony has many things on his wish list he'd like to do differently, but it's a question of business smarts and priority as to what to do and when to do it. Say what you want, but Tony is the one who started Microtech Knives and started a company called MSAR making a product nobody else in this nation has EVER produced from scratch before. I'd also say Tony has sold a metric ton of rifles as the majority of folks here own one so he must have some clue as to what he is doing. Former employees and other critics are always free to start their own companies and do it better if they feel they can. People paint Tony as the Devil, but he's always been kind to the folks that have talked to him and met him here. I've never seen Tony attack anyone or be a jerk to a customer on purpose. If someone here can start a company and produce a rifle that is better than the MSAR rifles at the same or reduced price I'll buy it. |
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Quoted: truth... Its an unfortunate fact of the American Gun Market. People are spoiled by the low cost of ARs and AKs, but both of those have those low costs due to the immense number that are produced. It has everything to do with the fact that a small business has to make hard economic choices on where they spend their money and obviously folks are going to have different opinions about those types of decisions. *snip* Those Austrian/Sabre Defence rifles retail for around $1,900 on average. In the case of the STG-556 that's nearly the cost of two STG556 rifles for one Steyr AUG A3. Steyr discontinued their rifles, because they were not selling well enough. Those rifles were produced with very expensive manufacturing machines/tooling, but as high quality as they were they couldn't sell due to the high price point that resulted. The differences between the two rifles are marginal as well. Both use cast parts, both use button rifling, and so forth. The only real difference is that Steyr has a lot more automation and consistentcy due solely to their ability to spend more on production thanks to their MIL contracts. Again though you pay for that difference and it's no guarantee that you'll never have issues. Frankly once you get to the $2K range there are rifles that are built using better production methods as well. Sure MSAR could produce more consistently then Steyr/Sabre, but that type of production would add to the cost of the rifle because it doesn't come for free. People who refuse to support small US companies, because overnight they don't have the money to invest in every bit of equipment that a foreign military contractor are selling and then wish that U.S. companies did better...well. Even if MSAR could afford to do the exact same method of production they probably, like Steyr, would end up with a rifle that nobody could really purchase. *snip* |
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Took my Gen III to the range today and put another 200 rounds of Federal XM193 through her for a total of 500 I believe since I bought it. Today was my first outing off of the high pressure setting. It was interesting to note that when I was shooting on the high setting the ejected brass all landed behind me on the right. Today on the standard (?) setting all brass was kicked out forward to the right.
I love this rifle. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
| I've been really attracted to the AUG type rifles lately, though I have not shot one since the late 1980s. I'd prefer an A3 AUG, but not for $1900+. The STANAG mag compatibility is a factor for me, so I may grab an MSAR E4. I was worried about the alleged quality control issues, but it sounds like most owners really like their MSARs. |
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I really like mine. Sits next to bed with me armed with an Aiimpoint and a Streamlight. My FFL purchased one of the AUG A3's, one of the early ones. It is a beautiful rifle, but has had it in 3 times that I know of. Doesn't distract his desire for the rifle, like mine for my E4. Not a knock on the AUG either.
Posters of the MSAR platform that have had issues has caused me to be more diligent in the inspections of my rifle after range sessions. |
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Approx. 400rds through my Gebirgsjager STG556, after zeroing the optic, not a single issue (Lake City 556 green tip and Remington 223, both 62gr). I like this gun so much, I just purchased a new Gen 4 STG556 16"/OD/optic...haven't taken it out yet, but expecting the same (this will be my "rainy day gun").
Likely would have grabbed an AUG if possible (previously issued an A1 at work), but no can do in Connecticut for personal use, so I opted for the MSAR and love it (them). |
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I have a STG556 with at least 1600 rounds through it, mostly Wolf and Silver bear. I had one stuck case with Wolf during the first 200 rounds, after several 42 rd mag dumps. Popped the barrel off removed the stuck case and back to shooting in less then two minutes. That is 99.9375% reliable. I am happy with that.
I hope that MSAR is regrouping and will resume production. They have made some small improvements to the original design. The also used high quality materials. MSAR did however fall short in the QC department. The AUG is an excellent/reliable/durable weapon. That is one of the reasons most people have been happy with STG/E4. Now would be a good time to buy a MSAR. Who knows how they will sell this tax season. |
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20 inch E4 with about 1,000 rounds fired (federal, PMC, tula, wolf, silver bear, brown bear, remington). 16 inch E4 with about 500 rounds fired (same mix). had two or three feeding issues with the 20 inch early on using MSAR mags and steel cased ammo, no problems with the 16. trust both rifles with my life.
ETA: don't forget to clean the chamber. this may account for the feeding issues i experienced or it could have been the break in period. i always run my E4's on the low gas setting. |
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I witnessed ~1,000 rounds of M855 be fed to an STG as fast as mags could be loaded and the trigger could be pulled . The barrel had this weird blue color sort of "flowing" through it, and was brown when it cooled off. any malfunctions, anything melt or break? |
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I witnessed ~1,000 rounds of M855 be fed to an STG as fast as mags could be loaded and the trigger could be pulled . The barrel had this weird blue color sort of "flowing" through it, and was brown when it cooled off. any malfunctions, anything melt or break? A handful of jams where dropping the mag and working the charging handle cleared it. Four or five at most. I was expecting the front polymer grip to melt, but it didn't. |
| One little malfunction did come out of this test (not really a malfunction, more like a design flaw). The upper rear edge of the receiver lock was severely dented in by the pounding of all that heavy use. After this test that receiver could slide forward and back in the stock for about an eighth of an inch. I haven't seen this kind of problem with the square receiver lock, just the older rounded ones. If you have a rounded one, it would be very wise to have it converted to square, or at least have a few extra receiver locks around. |
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One little malfunction did come out of this test (not really a malfunction, more like a design flaw). The upper rear edge of the receiver lock was severely dented in by the pounding of all that heavy use. After this test that receiver could slide forward and back in the stock for about an eighth of an inch. I haven't seen this kind of problem with the square receiver lock, just the older rounded ones. If you have a rounded one, it would be very wise to have it converted to square, or at least have a few extra receiver locks around. Think MSAR has these for sale??? Tomac |
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I witnessed ~1,000 rounds of M855 be fed to an STG as fast as mags could be loaded and the trigger could be pulled . The barrel had this weird blue color sort of "flowing" through it, and was brown when it cooled off. That was a fun morning at the range. |
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Think MSAR has these for sale??? Tomac I'm sure they have them, but they might just have the square ones. Best bet is to convert everything to square lock, then you won't have to worry about this problem at all. BTW, pull out one of your rounded locks and inspect the upper rear edge, you'll see what I'm talking about. I'd only had about 2500 rounds through mine and already had a dent. |
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I am sure MSAR has a pile of the locks and Ratworx likely can order them for you. My original tan first gen gun was convereted from round lock to square lock recently and it definitely has improved the tight fit of the receiver to the stock.
Converting the round lock stock to take the square lock took 10 minutes with a needle file and you can't even tell it was modded. |
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I'm sure they have them, but they might just have the square ones. Best bet is to convert everything to square lock, then you won't have to worry about this problem at all. BTW, pull out one of your rounded locks and inspect the upper rear edge, you'll see what I'm talking about. I'd only had about 2500 rounds through mine and already had a dent. Just checked the gunsafe and 3 of the 5 STG's there have square locks so no worries there. My two personal STG's have round locks, checked 'em both along w/the original black STG stock (appx 3K rds through that) and I don't see anything amiss. Am I missing something? Thx!... Tomac |
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I am sure MSAR has a pile of the locks and Ratworx likely can order them for you. My original tan first gen gun was convereted from round lock to square lock recently and it definitely has improved the tight fit of the receiver to the stock. Converting the round lock stock to take the square lock took 10 minutes with a needle file and you can't even tell it was modded. How difficult to mod the receiver from round lock to square lock? Thx... Tomac |
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You can probably send your receiver to Ratworx or MSAR to be modded, or you can do it yourself with a file if you're careful (that's what I did).
As far as not seeing any marks on your receiver lock Tomac, some locks may be harder than others. I said there was a dent on mine after about 2500 rounds, but it was VERY shallow, like .005", but it was an indicator of things to come. |
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You can probably send your receiver to Ratworx or MSAR to be modded, or you can do it yourself with a file if you're careful (that's what I did). As far as not seeing any marks on your receiver lock Tomac, some locks may be harder than others. I said there was a dent on mine after about 2500 rounds, but it was VERY shallow, like .005", but it was an indicator of things to come. Thx, exactly where on your receiver lock did you see the dent (so I know where to look)? Tomac |
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I am sure MSAR has a pile of the locks and Ratworx likely can order them for you. My original tan first gen gun was converted from round lock to square lock recently and it definitely has improved the tight fit of the receiver to the stock. Converting the round lock stock to take the square lock took 10 minutes with a needle file and you can't even tell it was modded. How difficult to mod the receiver from round lock to square lock? Thx... Tomac I did not mod the receiver, I would send it to Ratworx as they do the mods. |
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