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Posted: 11/19/2009 6:02:19 PM EDT
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Well, I've had the chance to handle two of the three (not the a3, but I have handled other model Steyr's) listed above. I appreciate the give take between the models when it comes to ergonomics, but what about function, customer support, aftermarket support, adaptability (swapping "uppers" to obtain different calibers), etc.
I have the handle on ergonomics... but what about the the rest? Please leave the purchase price on the side because I am interested in knowing about the rifles: not the price. Thanks! |
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Well, I claim to be the #1 breaker of parts on my FS2000, so I think I am well qualified to talk about service. Well, just one part. Actually, people bust it when they handle it - everyone wants to "HK slap" the charging handle and breaks off the finger rest or some weirdness (ETA: note that it does NOT affect rifle operation at all). I was also sent the 3rd gen trigger group that is supposed to more reliably light hard primer military loads even with the firing pin retaining spring installed - I only had problems with my reloads using CCI #41 primers, it ate absolutely everything factory just fine, and I reload with CCI 450 primers anyways.
I can't complain about FNH service - they have one guy named Bob Ailes you call, and things get taken care of. Want to send it in for them to fix, he mails you a prepaid UPS slip. Just want the parts, he'll do that if their system will let him. If it breaks, they'll fix it. If you screw it up and aren't a prick about it, they'll fix it. Since they share their repair center with all the other gun brands they own, turn-around just before and during deer season is longer if you send it in, and I hear it's pretty quick otherwise. FS2000 issues are mainly about magazine seating. You don't have a good feel for when the mag is properly seated with the magwell seal in place, and if you don't seat it all the way you'll get a hiccup in feeding. If you get that right, it's as reliable as any AR, or dare I say, AK. People will complain about the last round bolt hold open, or about the plastic parts, or about the plastic part handling the ejection system. The first is a matter of preference, and the others are a matter of reading the friendly manual, and not forcing things when you reassemble. Accuracy is on par with a milspec AR - about 2 MOA, give or take, although I'll get occasional small-group surprises in loads mine really likes, and shoots Wolf and Barnaul much better than one would expect. Accessories-wise, there isn't much, FNH released their tri-rail front grip for those that are into that sort of thing, or whose ideas of ergonomics dictate that there be a forward vertical grip on their carbine. Some years ago someone made a PS90 style forward grip that was pretty cool. Swapping uppers probably won't happen with the FS2K - it's a niche product for their view of the American market. Steyr probably won't produce anything outside their standard for Americans either. Should either get a big contract in an off-caliber, I am sure it's possible, but as it stands, it's unlikely. MSAR's niche is the American shooter, so they'll make anything they smell a demand for. |
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Well, I claim to be the #1 breaker of parts on my FS2000, so I think I am well qualified to talk about service. Well, just one part. Actually, people bust it when they handle it - everyone wants to "HK slap" the charging handle and breaks off the finger rest or some weirdness (ETA: note that it does NOT affect rifle operation at all). Odd that FN hasn't redesigned that part, especially since the military version is going to share the same weakness. |
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E4 charging handle can get nicked up if you lock it back a lot, but you can't break it...at least not easily (everything can be broken).
A small parts kit can be purchased through Rat Worx for the E4 for $178.00 or through MSAR directly if you contact Dave. The bolts I've seen available through Rat Worx and Cals Sporting Armory. I've also seen them online since you'll get folks who buy a left hand bolt and then will toss up on GB their right hand bolt. Again you can also purchase bolts through MSAR. Basically Rat Worx and MSAR can get you anything you want from stocks to barrel ($420 for a 16" barrel). You can get the different rail heights and stock 1.5 optic. You can get the various side length rails and of course the other smaller rails for the left side. There is the 20/20 rail as well that replaces the VFG with a rail. Customer Service, well MSAR is fanatical about taking care of their customers. If you read a few posts here I'm sure you'll see that. Say you've got a question or you just get stuck on something you just post it here and usually within a day you've got an answer. That's pretty nice. The manual does suck. We get people here all the time asking about adjusting the gas pressure on the STG556 and E4, because the manual doesn't do a good job with that. |
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is any military even considering it though? The military version of the FS2000 went into production for the first time in 2001. The only large military contract FNH has for the F2000 at present is with Slovenia where a variant called the F2000S is used (has a carry handle and raised top rail). Slovenia has taken the weapon with them to Afghanistan where they've been in combat operations with it. So it is combat proven. Croatia tested the F2000 in 2006 and they rejected it since it apparently did poorly. Poland GROM have used the F2000 in limited numbers in Afghansitan. The AUG A3 S/A variant was specifically designed for the USA civilian market and just came out this year. The latest military contract rifle that Steyr produced was the Jagdkommando that is in use with the Austrian Special Forces Group the rifle is named after. The STG77/AUG A1 is the standard service rifle for the Austrian Military, Irish Military, and the F88 variant with the Australian Defense Force. The A1 and A2 AUGs have won smaller contracts (smaller for Steyr) all around the world with various military units and law enforcement. The MSAR E4 just came out this year. I don't see MSAR taking a military contract soon. The company is only about three years old and they seem to be more focused on civilian and law enforcement sales. It's not easy at all for a privately held closed corporation to get into the international arms trade. |
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is any military even considering it though? The military version of the FS2000 went into production for the first time in 2001. The only large military contract FNH has for the F2000 at present is with Slovenia where a variant called the F2000S is used (has a carry handle and raised top rail). Slovenia has taken the weapon with them to Afghanistan where they've been in combat operations with it. So it is combat proven. Croatia tested the F2000 in 2006 and they rejected it since it apparently did poorly. Poland GROM have used the F2000 in limited numbers in Afghansitan. The AUG A3 S/A variant was specifically designed for the USA civilian market and just came out this year. The latest military contract rifle that Steyr produced was the Jagdkommando that is in use with the Austrian Special Forces Group the rifle is named after. The STG77/AUG A1 is the standard service rifle for the Austrian Military, Irish Military, and the F88 variant with the Australian Defense Force. The A1 and A2 AUGs have won smaller contracts (smaller for Steyr) all around the world with various military units and law enforcement. The MSAR E4 just came out this year. I don't see MSAR taking a military contract soon. The company is only about three years old and they seem to be more focused on civilian and law enforcement sales. It's not easy at all for a privately held closed corporation to get into the international arms trade. Any idea on what went wrong with the FS2000 in these trials? But no problems in Afghanistan? |
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to be honest, the "problems" they probably had were being annoyed with non-drop free magazines, not knowing how to take it apart, or oil it properly, and at the very most the charging handles breaking.
either that still, the magazines FNH "makes" are complete shit.. if they got some usgi contract mags, it would work wonders |
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Any idea on what went wrong with the FS2000 in these trials? But no problems in Afghanistan? There is a rather lengthy picture thread over at militaryphotos.net with posters from Slovenia and I don't recall anyone of them bringing up any issue they had with the F2000S in Afghanistan. They seem to love it. I'm not exactly sure what happened with the F2000 in Croatia during their trials. From what I've read (I wasn't there and this is all second hand) the 1st Airborne Company of their Special Battalion purchased 100 FNH F2000 rifles and apparently the commandos were not satisfied with its "low reliability and poor performance." Now that's from wiki and could all be crap especially since it's NOT cited about the performance just a cite in Croatian about the purchase of the 100 rifles. Maybe you could find someone Croatian who could read the article and see what it is in there or turn up something more in a Google search. |
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which brings me to my next question: why did FN not make the mag drop free? and why not make it easier to tell if it has been locked in? Different magazine philosophy than us here in the U.S. really. Forcing soldiers to grab the magazine means they are less likely to just drop them free on the ground where they can be damaged or lost. Damaged/lost magazines increases logistical footprint and requires higher cost to replace magazines even during peace time training. Bean counters don't like drop free magazines. That may seem like B.S., but remember that Europeans don't spend anywhere near what we do in terms of percentage of their national budget on their defense so a European military has to really get the most bang for their buck and keep costs low. I really sense that the F2000 was developed to get Eastern European contracts from nations who were using the AK47 as well. Not really a rifle designed for the American shooter like the SCAR. Also the tighter magazine well means a greater seal around the magazine which could translate into a cleaner weapon. The integration of the magazine well and stock also creates a very streamlined smooth lines rifle and if you look at the P90 promo video FNH did they were definitely thinking along those lines when they developed the P90 and the F2000 was developed around the same time probably by a lot of the same folks. The magazine in an F2000 is definitely more integrated into the rifle perhaps protecting it even more than one that is not? I can see a few reasons they went in the direction they did even if I don't agree with it. FS2000 at the end of the day is a damn fine rifle though. It comes with negatives and positive just like every rifle out there. |
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We are just helping answer questions about the fs2000
As far as reliablity is concerned, I can't tell you how to fully dismantle the weapon or how to clear a jam because in the 2000+\- rounds I fired I never had a malfunction the ammo was privi federal m193 and xm193 Winchester white box and Remington |
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The FS2000 is probably my favorite general purpose rifle, it's also the most reliable rifle I own and it has more rounds through it than anything else. I personally think it's relatively well designed with only a few shortcomings. Biggest problem: trigger is heavy and has a lot of take-up. It does break cleanly though. You can get used to it and I can shoot reasonably fast and accurately with it but going back to an AR lets you know what you're missing. For the record, the AUG style triggers are in the same league...(ie, within 20% of one another). As for jams? I've only had 3 in thousands of rounds fired (mostly competition) until I figured out rules 1 & 2 below. No problems at all since then. Key things to remember: 1- don't chamber a round by loading a full mag and slapping the charging handle loose from the detent position. Slapping it down doesn't work reliably. 2- if you forget and do #1 and it goes "click" instead of "bang" on the first shot...DO NOT just pull back on the charging handle to try it again. Drop the mag first, then cycle the handle. 3- Drop the mag before trying to clear the action. Then pop up the toilet seat cover and watch the misfeeds drop out. 4- RTFM before trying to assemble or disassemble. Others haven't and they've broken shit. You don't need to force anything to get it back together but it does look a lot different than an AR bolt (same goes for the aug). I personally don't care for the standard front 'flat' handguard that the FS comes with. If you get it and can't find a rail replacement, you might want to put some grip-tape on there. It's just too slick for a good hold. The real downside is that WYSIWYG. FNH isn't going to be producing many variants or accessories for this platform. This isn't a big deal to me since I already own a lot of other rifles, but if this is going to be your only rifle....I'd stick with an AR. |
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the charging handle (since i had the rifle) has been improved with a t-bar across the teeth, and they looked thicker than the ones i had on mine
the spring action front piece, which you usually grab to pull back the handle can also break off if you "HK" slap it home. this is because the bolt hold open recess is deep and if you slap the handle down, the front of it may stay while the back goes |
I really don't want to get to know their customer service group, their kids names, their wife's birthdays, etc. Frankly I like the fact that I've never had to find out what kind of customer service FN has.  I consider that a point in their favor.
Prices can be expensive for stuff that really shouldn't be (extractors, firing pin, etc) and don't even think about picking up a spare bolt unless you have a few C-notes lying around. Sounds like you've already decided on an FS. If so, enjoy! |
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ok, so barring mistreatment things should be fine it sounds. question: what kind of customer service does FNH offer? good, bad? responsive? etc. It should be fine yes.. I broke mine a couple times due to HK type of slaps their customer service, basically Bob Ailes, is pretty responsive and understand |
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ok, so barring mistreatment things should be fine it sounds. question: what kind of customer service does FNH offer? good, bad? responsive? etc. I think Bob Ailes has my address on file, and will probably mail me one handle kit per year if I call him again. For the record, it's the finger rest on the charging handle that breaks, not the handle proper. With gloves on you won't even notice until you get home from the match 
Seriously though - no complaints about their service at all, except for having to call them in the first place. |
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is any military even considering it though? The military version of the FS2000 went into production for the first time in 2001. The only large military contract FNH has for the F2000 at present is with Slovenia where a variant called the F2000S is used (has a carry handle and raised top rail). Slovenia has taken the weapon with them to Afghanistan where they've been in combat operations with it. So it is combat proven. Croatia tested the F2000 in 2006 and they rejected it since it apparently did poorly. Poland GROM have used the F2000 in limited numbers in Afghansitan. The AUG A3 S/A variant was specifically designed for the USA civilian market and just came out this year. The latest military contract rifle that Steyr produced was the Jagdkommando that is in use with the Austrian Special Forces Group the rifle is named after. The STG77/AUG A1 is the standard service rifle for the Austrian Military, Irish Military, and the F88 variant with the Australian Defense Force. The A1 and A2 AUGs have won smaller contracts (smaller for Steyr) all around the world with various military units and law enforcement. The MSAR E4 just came out this year. I don't see MSAR taking a military contract soon. The company is only about three years old and they seem to be more focused on civilian and law enforcement sales. It's not easy at all for a privately held closed corporation to get into the international arms trade. Any idea on what went wrong with the FS2000 in these trials? But no problems in Afghanistan? No idea, but every military evaluator has their own idea of what an ideal weapon ought to be - remember the M16 predecessor was adopted because some Air Force general thought it did a great job on watermelons at some party. And most of the countries that passed on the F2000 also passed on the AR. Other Adopters: Saudi Arabia bought a few thousand to go with their P90's. Whether it's their federal police, border guards, or reg army, they do have people shoot at them once in a while. Peru's special forces use them for sure, and some not-so-special units are now at least parading with them. Belgium also uses the F2000, but it's phased in slowly for some reason. Combat? Who knows - I know they left my countrymen in a lurch in Rwanda. India's Air Force special force people use the F2000 as well, FWIW. –––– Now about this drop free mags thing: given the ergonomics of a bullpup rifle, NOT having a drop free mag system is generally a good thing. The location of the magwell forces you to move the rifle into your workspace, and given that the magazine protects the release button, it's a pretty cool layout, IMHO. Competition use? It's a disadvantage sometimes. Otherwise? No disadvantage at all. Last round bolt hold open is prevented by the ejection system - a compromise - you get ambi ability in a bull pup with no reconfiguration in return for having to rack the charging handle once in a while. Feel free to disagree with me on this, but I like the set of compromises my FS has. |
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Thanks guys for all your ongoing input. It's great to hear about people's positive experiences with FN, and moreover the general lack of experience with customer service (although those sparse contacts seem to be positive as well).
I am still up in the air between an A3, FS2k, or some manner of MSAR (although leaning much more towards the first two). Are there any AR mags that do NOT work in the FS2k? |
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+1 on Bob @ FN taking care of things quickly. I just purchased another PS90 and my first FS2000 to go with the two E4's I have and the FS didn't have a manual in the box. I emailed them and he sent me a manual within a day of request. With the rebate offers I couldn't pass up snagging another PS90 (which I need to SBR) and the FS2000. Under $1600 net after all fees less the rebate on the FS was just too good to pass up.
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Thanks guys for all your ongoing input. It's great to hear about people's positive experiences with FN, and moreover the general lack of experience with customer service (although those sparse contacts seem to be positive as well). I am still up in the air between an A3, FS2k, or some manner of MSAR (although leaning much more towards the first two). Are there any AR mags that do NOT work in the FS2k? No polymer magazines work without modification. Basically, stick to good quality usgi magazines |
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another question: do pmags work in fs2ks? No. PMags, Lancers, and Orlites will not work because the mag well on the FS2000 is too deep. Only EMags work, with some modifications. This being said, any good GI mag with a Magpul follower can be had for less and works just as well. |
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