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5.45x39 Load Development (Page 3 of 4)
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Well. That’s not at all visible by eyeballing. In that case, something like a #41 primer may be important. I have a variety of SR primers on hand (#41, WSR, S&B, CCI, etc.). When I can get back to loading, I will take a look at some test loads with different primers. |
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Got my hornady 11th. 5.45 is in there! But very limited loading and for their v-max 60 gr. One can at least build off the data and figure out what else could work. I cut out the numbers because I don't know what policies are to take pics of loading data from books due to copyright. But just buy it because it is full of new stuff.Attached File |
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Originally Posted By LuxorDeathbed: Got my hornady 11th. 5.45 is in there! But very limited loading and for their v-max 60 gr. One can at least build off the data and figure out what else could work. I cut out the numbers because I don't know what policies are to take pics of loading data from books due to copyright. But just buy it because it is full of new stuff.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/145197/20210503_151851_jpg-1928222.JPG 10 Copyrighted Material must be respected. If you wish to share an article from another site, it's important that you attribute a link to the original site. We will initially issue warnings, but repeat violations will result in your removal from the site. While not a requirement, it is considered a courtesy that you only post a small excerpt of the original article here. There you go, the official version. If a page or maybe 2 are posted, no problem. Just don't push it. |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3: From the Code of Conduct; 10 Copyrighted Material must be respected. If you wish to share an article from another site, it's important that you attribute a link to the original site. We will initially issue warnings, but repeat violations will result in your removal from the site. While not a requirement, it is considered a courtesy that you only post a small excerpt of the original article here. There you go, the official version. If a page or maybe 2 are posted, no problem. Just don't push it. Perfect. I suspected there was something. Caution and all wins the day. |
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Originally Posted By LuxorDeathbed: Got my hornady 11th. 5.45 is in there! But very limited loading and for their v-max 60 gr. One can at least build off the data and figure out what else could work. I cut out the numbers because I don't know what policies are to take pics of loading data from books due to copyright. But just buy it because it is full of new stuff.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/145197/20210503_151851_jpg-1928222.JPG Hi! I don’t have the Hornady 11th, but I’m still very curious as to how it compares to my experiment a month and a bit ago. I got 2940 fps with 23.2 grains of AR-Plus, which is nearly the same as Accurate 2230. How does that compare to the chart in the book? Thanks!! |
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After a long hiatus because of a lot of things - mostly some health issues - I’m back looking at loads for the 5.45x39. I posted in another 5.45-related thread about something I found on Cast Boolits: Here is what about 25% of the 5.45X39 cases made from 222Rem look like after their first firing due to sidewall expansion to fit the chamber. If you look closely at the base you may be able to see the bulge. Sure looks like forming .222 cases for 5.45x39 ain’t a super idea. |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter: Hornady’s offering of both affordable dies AND quality brass (and their bullets) was a potential game changer. Dies, brass and bullets were in stock right after their announcement (around the first of the year, I think), but the shellholder is my big roadblock. I really need to spend more time looking for that shellholder in stock somewhere. Optics planet has the #56 shellholder |
| I think keeping track of when and where the specialized tools for 5.45 are available is something that we need to share in this thread. Just like what non-5.45 bits work. |
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When Hornady first started selling components, but no load data, I contacted Hornady for load data. In response, the only load data I was given at the time was their CFE-223 load data. I thought that might be their best choice as that's all they were giving me. I had bought their loaded ammo and found 24.0 grains of ball powder in it. Their load data with velocities now shows 24.0 grains of CFE-223 giving 2600 fps and 25.5 grains giving 2800 fps. Their factory ammo is rated at 2810 fps. Their load data shows a maximum load of 23.9 grains of A2460 giving 2800 fps. Hornady uses a 16 inch barrel for 5.45. The Hornady data only mentions using CCI-400 primers. Considering that 5.45 firing pin protrusion is on the order of large rifle primer specs, it is likely wise to use thick, magnum small rifle primers. A friend loaded 24.0 grains of H335 and the velocity was higher than Hornady factory ammo and likely too hot, but the fired case and primer didn't show pressure signs. I wouldn't recommend it. A2460 and CFE-223 are the only two powders Hornady shows reaching 2800 fps and their H335 load is less powder and slower in velocity. After my friend tried H335, I figured a slightly slower powder, like A2460 or Varmint, would be a better choice, but even Varmint and TAC have lower velocities in Hornady's data. Hornady's factory ammo was accurate for me, but only gave me around 2700 fps from a 16 inch barrel. CCI #41 primers have been hotter than CCI-450 primers for me. Maybe Hornady does use CFE-223 and maybe a magnum primer would bring 24.0 grains up from 2600 fps to 2700 fps, rather loading a maximum pressure load of A2460. Of the Russian ammo, Barnaul and Golden Tiger give similar velocities, but Tula is way down in velocity. Barnaul loaded with extruded powder gives me just over 2750 fps with a 60 grain FMJ bullet. Barnaul loaded with ball powder gives me right around 2800 fps wit a 60 grain FMJ bullet. Golden Tiger velocity was right between the two Barnaul loads and used ball powder. Tula was much slower than the others. |
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I've read up on 5.45x39 reloading over the years and even picked up a set of CH4D dies and a Lee bullet sizer which I've never put to use. I've saved links to threads on other forums and figured I'd add them here for general reference. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/417407_Best_way_to_trim__222_Rem_down_to_5_45x39.html http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44231 http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144529 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/81058-545x39mm-reloading-for-the-deer-hunter/ |
| I have a tantel i have reloaded but using 222 rem has been frustrating in 545 mags for obvious reasons. Just got a polish 556 mag and loaded 30 pre fire formed dummies. Hand cycled flawlessly 30 times. Live fire forming from the mag is next. Hope this helps someone else. |
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I’ve been working on my Hornady brass, and doing the mathy stuff to make sure I’m staying safe and within tolerances. I have converted the CIP measurements to inches, and double checked my math, since one number I converted wrong. A kind of important number too, so I redid everything. I weighed a sample of my pulled (Barnaul) bullets, and they are all a small margin under 60 grains; Barnaul quotes them as being 3.85 grams, which is pretty darn close to 59.4 grains. I’m going to use these for my first. Test loads so I don’t use up my expensive V-max bullets. |
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GHPorter and others - a huge THANKS for your legwork here. I know with the recent ban on Russian ammo, supplies will only get tighter - meaning there should be more interest in reloading 5.45 soon. I hope so anyway. Would be a shame to let this valuable thread go to the archives. |
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I emailed Starline about bringing 5.45 brass to market. Their response: Thank you for reaching out. At this time we are unable to look into new product development due to the high influx of orders in our system. I apologize for the inconvenience. A while back I had also contacted Prvi about brass, Boxer-primed 5.45 ammo or at least components. They said they would take it under consideration. Still no product announcement. Unfortunately, I only have 100 Hornady cases, and it looks like everybody who lists the stuff is out of stock. 
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Originally Posted By Dominion21: Would be a shame to let this valuable thread go to the archives. Here is the post I stated that, https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/5-45x39-Load-Development/42-508832/?page=1#i5276652 "Archive toggle set" is mod speak for this thread will never go into the archives as the archive toggle had been set.  |
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Just in case if anyone is in need, MidwayUSA has 4x 100-bullet packs of the factory seconds 60 gr V-max. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010918025?pid=399673 |
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Originally Posted By borderpatrol: Hornady manuals (newer editions) have load data for this caliber. I have zero experience because I don't own anything that uses it. I am not even aware of any source for boxer primed brass. A while back, there was a run of some decent domestic Hornady boxer primed brass, a run of Hornady dies, and Hornady V-Max bullets on the market. The bullet supply is still around, but the dies and brass didn't take long to get taken up and they haven't cycled back since. It is just a guess from the sidelines, but with everything else going on it may be a long time before they cycle back to niche topics like this. |
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Originally Posted By LuxorDeathbed: I have a tantel i have reloaded but using 222 rem has been frustrating in 545 mags for obvious reasons. Just got a polish 556 mag and loaded 30 pre fire formed dummies. Hand cycled flawlessly 30 times. Live fire forming from the mag is next. Hope this helps someone else. Follow up to this. Loaded 30 rounds and fired them thru this 223 mag. Flawless. Also 55 gr short fmjs that were down sized to 221 worked fine. Loaded mag though has room for them to slide forward. No burst cases from fire forming. |
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Originally Posted By borderpatrol: Hornady manuals (newer editions) have load data for this caliber. I have zero experience because I don't own anything that uses it. I am not even aware of any source for boxer primed brass. Hornady makes, "runs" of the brass, but it is not in constant production. 300 Legend cases seem to have the same rim and case diameter and can be formed to 5.45x39. |
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Originally Posted By Air_Soft_Contractor: Hornady makes, "runs" of the brass, but it is not in constant production. 300 Legend cases seem to have the same rim and case diameter and can be formed to 5.45x39. Originally Posted By Air_Soft_Contractor: Originally Posted By borderpatrol: Hornady manuals (newer editions) have load data for this caliber. I have zero experience because I don't own anything that uses it. I am not even aware of any source for boxer primed brass. Hornady makes, "runs" of the brass, but it is not in constant production. 300 Legend cases seem to have the same rim and case diameter and can be formed to 5.45x39. No, the 350 Legend brass does not have the same rim diameter as 5.45. It has the same rim as .223, just larger in the base above the rim. As a result, the 350 Legend brass that I have used has had rim damage due to only partial engagement of the extractor. Also, firing pin strikes are not centered on the primers due to the bolt and case head not being actually aligned every time. I’d like to use a 5.56 bolt, but the bolt face depth isn’t the same as on my 5.45 bolt. Also, 350 Legend -> 5.45 requires neck reaming or neck turning. I did it for ~70 cases, and it wasn’t fun without a dedicated neck turning station. |
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Originally Posted By kicsibors: No, the 350 Legend brass does not have the same rim diameter as 5.45. It has the same rim as .223, just larger in the base above the rim. As a result, the 350 Legend brass that I have used has had rim damage due to only partial engagement of the extractor. Also, firing pin strikes are not centered on the primers due to the bolt and case head not being actually aligned every time. I’d like to use a 5.56 bolt, but the bolt face depth isn’t the same as on my 5.45 bolt. Also, 350 Legend -> 5.45 requires neck reaming or neck turning. I did it for ~70 cases, and it wasn’t fun without a dedicated neck turning station. Originally Posted By kicsibors: Originally Posted By Air_Soft_Contractor: Originally Posted By borderpatrol: Hornady manuals (newer editions) have load data for this caliber. I have zero experience because I don't own anything that uses it. I am not even aware of any source for boxer primed brass. Hornady makes, "runs" of the brass, but it is not in constant production. 300 Legend cases seem to have the same rim and case diameter and can be formed to 5.45x39. No, the 350 Legend brass does not have the same rim diameter as 5.45. It has the same rim as .223, just larger in the base above the rim. As a result, the 350 Legend brass that I have used has had rim damage due to only partial engagement of the extractor. Also, firing pin strikes are not centered on the primers due to the bolt and case head not being actually aligned every time. I’d like to use a 5.56 bolt, but the bolt face depth isn’t the same as on my 5.45 bolt. Also, 350 Legend -> 5.45 requires neck reaming or neck turning. I did it for ~70 cases, and it wasn’t fun without a dedicated neck turning station. I'm sure the neck would need turning. I haven't had any problems with 223 rims in 5.45 bolts and extractors. Soviet extractor test is a loaded cartridge under extractor hook, with the bolt held horizontally. If it holds a loaded cartridge, it passes. Biggest issue with Hornady cases is the small primer pocket. 5.45 firing pins have large rifle primer protrusion, unless you get a spare firing pin to modify for small rifle primers. The larger base diameter of 350 Legend should be large enough to keep the primer centered in the 5.45 chamber. |
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Originally Posted By MexViking1: Morning all, Working on this project on an AR-15 platform and the issue I have is finding mags. For now I don't have to have a mag that holds 30 rounds. Have any of you used a 5.56 mag that could cycle ~ 5 rounds consistently? I'm sorting through memories of the thread we had on this subject back around 2007 or 2008, but, it was rather hit or miss on 5.56 Magazines that would reliably feed 5.45 more than a few rounds at a time. I found that if you loaded 10 or 15 rounds max, some of the magazines worked better than others, and, if I remember correctly, one of the few magazines that did work really well, was the (at the time) $75 Fancy coated stainless HK Ar-15 magazines. They were stupid expensive but seemed to work better than most. But you could not load them up to 30 rounds and count on them to work all the time. It was a mess that was not solved until we could get our hands on dedicated 5.45 AR mags. |
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| I was using IMR-4198 with resized .224 55gr fmjs. I *think* it was 16 grs(I might’ve posted it earlier in this thread). I was using converted .222 and .223/5.56 cases. It cycled in the AK and AR I tried it in. I didn’t take development past that, at least as of yet. |
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Found this thread.. been a while since anyone posted. I have been playing with some 5.45 reloading.. SO far, only sizing. I was able to get the #5 shellplate (for 9mm/40) for Dillon 550 to size my Hornady once fired brass. Cases seem a little loose in the shell holder but snug enough for sizing. I intend to size on single stage anyway but wanted to do the loading on a progressive. The 550 should work. I need to test a bit more. Will post back with any results but might be a couple weeks. |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3: @GHPorter Quick note, GHPorter, the OP, has not posted in a while. I know he was having health issues, I hope to see him back when he gets well.  Thanks for the kindness. I’m back, sort of. Long, long story, but I’m back. Sadly, I don’t have any new info on this, mainly because of why I haven’t been online here for so long. I have sized down .224 bullets to an appropriate diameter for 5.45x39, and I have done a bit of fiddling with a variety of data sources (mostly from online folks), but not loaded, let alone tested, anything. |
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Is there any reason you aren't simply buying the correct diameter bullets? I don't know much about 5.45mm, I always found it strange it fell off the face of the planet like it did. When I first got into the AR15, 5.45x39 was a very, very common round, and lots of people got uppers for them because the stuff was so plentiful and it was actually cheaper than 223 was, if you can believe that now. I never got into it, but when I started hearing about people loading it I didn't think much of it. Then I realized you can't even hardly get factory ammo anymore in many stores. You can still get it online, but WOW the price is a shocker. It blows my mind. I can't believe the demand isn't there with all the uppers that were around, and I can only assume plenty of AK's or other guns made for it. Sorry for the offshoot. I did a quick search, and it does appear proper 5.45x39 diameter bullets are readily available, an example being a 60gr Hornady V-Max. The cost appears comparable to a .224" 60gr V-Max, so I see no reason to waste time sizing them down. The only source of data I was able to find appears to be a supplemental source from Hornady, and only a single option with CFE-223. I can also check the new Hornady manual which came out after this thread started and see if anything is there. Lastly, I could run some numbers in Quickloads that may get you in the right direction. chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://static.hornady.media/site/hornady/files/load-data/basic-rifle-data.pdf |
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I think most of the sizing bullets came from before the actual 5.45 bullets were readily available. That was basically the only option we had for a long time. And really, if you want to load anything other than the v-max, that’s still basically your only option. I think we’re eventually going to see some more options in commercial 5.45, if things ever settle down enough. We still really haven’t recovered from 2020 yet. There’s still a lot of things that used to be common that are completely unavailable even almost 5 years later. Think about it, 30-40 Krag components and ammo are a good example.Try to find anything that way-and it used to be pretty readily available. We’ve just started to be able to get large rifle magnum primers in the last few months. Just as a couple examples off the top of my head. Hornady had just started to offer 5.45 brass not too long before everything got ridiculous. They’re at least selling 5.45 ammo with reloadable cases now. With the Russian ammo likely gone for good, the ammo companies aren’t trying to compete with loads of really cheap foreign ammo. There’s a little, but it’s not that cheap and there really isn’t that much of it. With all of the firearms chambered in 5.45 in this country, and more still being produced (AK-74s are still a thing), there’s demand there. But what they only had so much production capacity. And they’re not going to stop production of a more common, popular caliber and switch over to an oddball when there’s still a large demand for it. |
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Originally Posted By fgshoot: Is there any reason you aren't simply buying the correct diameter bullets? When I was doing that several years ago, purpose made .2215 bullets were rare and/or pretty expensive. Today, proper-sized bullets are listed from a bunch of sources, and are often actually in stock. It made more sense to me to size dirt cheap bulk .224 bullets for experimenting than to spend (at the time) about 80 cents each on Hornady’s excellent “correct size” bullets. And I had bought quite a lot of bulk Winchester FMJs before learning how less-than-consistent these bulk components tended to be, so… I just checked, and those Hornady bullets cost about 20 cents each. But Armscor’s “OK for blasting” 55gr FMJs are around 8 cents each, so at the moment, for playing around, I still think there’s a place financially for sizing down .224 bullets. Once I get to the range and test rounds with these sized bullets I might have a completely different opinion. 
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Originally Posted By fgshoot: Is there any reason you aren't simply buying the correct diameter bullets? When I was doing that several years ago, purpose made .2215 bullets were rare and/or pretty expensive. Today, proper-sized bullets are listed from a bunch of sources, and are often actually in stock. It made more sense to me to size dirt cheap bulk .224 bullets for experimenting than to spend (at the time) about 80 cents each on Hornady’s excellent “correct size” bullets. And I had bought quite a lot of bulk Winchester FMJs before learning how less-than-consistent these bulk components tended to be, so… I just checked, and those Hornady bullets cost about 20 cents each. But Armscor’s “OK for blasting” 55gr FMJs are around 8 cents each, so at the moment, for playing around, I still think there’s a place financially for sizing down .224 bullets. Once I get to the range and test rounds with these sized bullets I might have a completely different opinion.
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Originally Posted By mace2364: I think most of the sizing bullets came from before the actual 5.45 bullets were readily available. That was basically the only option we had for a long time. And really, if you want to load anything other than the v-max, that’s still basically your only option. Pretty much this. V-Max is a great bullet, but I think of it as wasteful to shoot such good bullets while figuring out the quirks of a new caliber. |
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You are certainly free to size down bullets, it shouldn't be that hard. I've never tried a jacketed bullet, but all my cast bullets get sized. It doesn't take that long at all to do 1000, although 22 caliber bullets are a lot harder to handle. It does appear you can get cheaper .224" bullets, although quality may be questionable. It appears you can get .224" Hornady 55gr FMJ for $87 per 1000. By comparison a .2215" Hornady 60gr Vmax is $115 for 600, although almost certainly a higher quality bullet. It does turn out Hornady 11th has 5.45x39 load data. I took a picture and will post below. 
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Originally Posted By Garand1911: .223 brass resized to .222, trim, resize ro 5.45 Originally Posted By Garand1911: Originally Posted By crwdplsr: I wish I could get some 5.45 brass .223 brass resized to .222, trim, resize ro 5.45 Looks like Norma and S&B both have boxer primed 5.45 brass cased ammo at this point. Over on the AKFiles folks have been testing some of it out. Close to .80 per round of loaded ammo, but if you can get a few reload cycles out of each case that might be a sound investment. I’m basically done with steel cased COMBLOC ammo as it’s no longer the cheap fodder it once was. I’ll pay 70% more for brass cased and just handload after the initial factory load has been fired. |
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Checking back in on this. I’ve been looking into sizing .222 or .223 cases to make 5.45 cases, and finding all sorts of stuff…not much of it being particularly helpful in an “I did it this way, step by step” way. In another thread, dryflash3 pointed me to a thread on Castboolits on that subject. The last post is by someone on the same quest as I am, asking the OP for details. It’s been more than a week, and the OP hasn’t updated anything. So…I guess I’m going to have to do the leg work myself. Sigh… In any case, I have a Zepp chopping jig for 300 Blackout that should let me fudge it’s position enough to cut .223 cases down by about 0.21 or so in length, instead of 0.38 (nearly to the base of the shoulder) for Blackout. I hope, anyway. Basically I’m going to start out by chopping some cases down to a manageable length, then anneal them and try to form them. I’ll also see if annealing, forming, THEN chopping is a workable process. I’m thinking no, but we’ll see. Trimming is an issue to figure out later, but should be doable. |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter: Checking back in on this. I’ve been looking into sizing .222 or .223 cases to make 5.45 cases, and finding all sorts of stuff…not much of it being particularly helpful in an “I did it this way, step by step” way. In another thread, dryflash3 pointed me to a thread on Castboolits on that subject. The last post is by someone on the same quest as I am, asking the OP for details. It’s been more than a week, and the OP hasn’t updated anything. So…I guess I’m going to have to do the leg work myself. Sigh… In any case, I have a Zepp chopping jig for 300 Blackout that should let me fudge it’s position enough to cut .223 cases down by about 0.21 or so in length, instead of 0.38 (nearly to the base of the shoulder) for Blackout. I hope, anyway. Basically I’m going to start out by chopping some cases down to a manageable length, then anneal them and try to form them. I’ll also see if annealing, forming, THEN chopping is a workable process. I’m thinking no, but we’ll see. Trimming is an issue to figure out later, but should be doable. Dude bought $450 die to make cheaper cases? I just bought Hornady ammo… bam bam bam.. cases ready to reload. |
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Originally Posted By djryan13: Dude bought $450 die to make cheaper cases? I just bought Hornady ammo… bam bam bam.. cases ready to reload. Yeah, that sort of bothered me too. I have noticed that Hornady sells both brass-cased, Boxer-primed 5.45 ammunition, and steel-cased, Berdan-primed 5.45 ammunition. The steel stuff appears to be made with primed cases from Barnaul (last time I got valid info anyway). Their brass-cased stuff goes for around $.70 - $.90/round when you can find it. I'd love to be able to depend on search listings for their brass-cased ammo being current and accurate, but not always, right? On the other hand, I bought Hornady's 5.45mm dies years ago, so I have the hardware to size cases that are sorta-kinda close to the right size. And having |
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3-4 years ago, I figured out that 350 legend cases are the right base diameter to make 5.45x39 cases from. The rim is 223 sized, the neck requires turning, and I highly recommend annealing, but they make good 5.45x39 brass. At least case body ruptures like those often seen in resized 222 Rem cases isn’t a thing to worry about. |
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Since I have plenty of .223 cases to play with, and zero 350 Legend brass, I’ll file that away. Thanks for the info! It gives me confidence that I can convert brass to work, even if it starts out with a much larger neck. That Cast Boolits thread has had some more posts. One guy says he sizes the .223 down to .222 Remington, and then to 5.45. The shoulder of the .222 is sorta half way between the two end points, so it makes sense. Now I’m looking at buying a .222 sizing die, or maybe just go for a set of Lee dies in .222. I’d anneal the brass before sizing to .222, and probably trim at that point. Before I spend more money on something that “might” work, I’m still going to try converting directly from .223 Remington brass. I have spent some time looking over my Whatever direction I take, I’m going to pay close attention to neck thickness of the converted cases. I have Hornady factory 5.45 cases for comparison, so I’ll at least have an idea what to expect. |
5.45x39 Load Development (Page 3 of 4)
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