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Posted: 12/22/2016 8:38:29 PM EDT
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I'm mostly a volume shooter, so I've always been thinking I'll save and get a nice progressive for 5.56/45ACP/9MM
I explore and adjust this idea often @FluffyTheCat and I talked, and to get some experience and kind of dive in, I'm going to purchase a single stage setup. Just something to gain familiarity, understanding and practice before I go full progressive. My first toe dip will be 45-70. I love shooting it, and that's the cartridge I'd like to explore first in terms of the variables. I love shooting 45-70, and I think due to its versatility, it'd be a great cartridge to start with. What setup would you guys recommend? I'm not sure if one brand makes a better fit for this cartridge than another, or certain equipment is better suited to it, etc. I'd like to keep it under $1,000 if that's feasible, and I'm talking all necessary equipment, dies, powder, etc. I've been saving my brass. Basically, if you have the knowledge, I'd like your help building my first setup. I've read a lot of guys like to keep two reloading manuals, to cross reference loads. I'd even like your input on which ones. I know I'm asking a lot, without giving a lot, but if you're willing to help I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance. |
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I rarely recommend people buy single stage presses because most people who haunt this forum want to load 10k 223 rounds and 15k 9mm rounds...
But in your case, starting slow with 45-70 on single stage is a great idea. Starline brass is a start. I load both black powder and smokeless rounds for 45-70. Bullets are not cheap. This is the perfect round to cast for.. because you recover costs of equipment much faster. Rock Chucker Supreme single stage... Even people with big progressive presses still have at least one single stage on their bench (I have 3). So its not a waste of money. |
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I rarely recommend people buy single stage presses because most people who haunt this forum want to load 10k 223 rounds and 15k 9mm rounds... But in your case, starting slow with 45-70 on single stage is a great idea. Starline brass is a start. I load both black powder and smokeless rounds for 45-70. Bullets are not cheap. This is the perfect round to cast for.. because you recover costs of equipment much faster. Rock Chucker Supreme single stage... Even people with big progressive presses still have at least one single stage on their bench (I have 3). So its not a waste of money. Thanks. Where the hell do I start with casting? Is it expensive? Carbide dies, I'm assuming? Which powders? Which books? This a good start? |
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Don't reload that anymore, but did a lot once upon a time. Rockchucker for a press, Lyman dies, and Lyman Reloading Manual is excellent, it has cast and jacketed loads, and last I looked, had loads for trap door, lever guns, and falling block (strongest) actions.
For a powder SR 4759 was one of the best powders ever made for this caliber, but I think its out of production now. If you could find any of that powder, it would be worth it. I also used IMR 4198 and 3031. Others will no doubt work. I liked a Sierra 300 gr JHP bullet, and a Hornady 350gr JRN bullet. Also, the old 500 gr Lyman #457125 Govt bullet, and the 405 gr lead bullet both worked very well with the right loads. |
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Don't reload that anymore, but did a lot once upon a time. Rockchucker for a press, Lyman dies, and Lyman Reloading Manual is excellent, it has cast and jacketed loads, and last I looked, had loads for trap door, lever guns, and falling block (strongest) actions. For a powder SR 4759 was one of the best powders ever made for this caliber, but I think its out of production now. If you could find any of that powder, it would be worth it. I also used IMR 4198 and 3031. Others will no doubt work. I liked a Sierra 300 gr JHP bullet, and a Hornady 350gr JRN bullet. Also, the old 500 gr Lyman #457125 Govt bullet, and the 405 gr lead bullet both worked very well with the right loads. My experience is close to this as well. I went with a Lyman orange crusher press - mostly because I had ideas of eventually getting a .50-120 and the Lyman press had enough clearance to do it. I used IMR3031 for a powder in a Ruger No. 1. You could load from low pressure trapdoor springfield class rounds up to whambo loads near .458 magnum charges. I cast a Lyman mould bullet that was near 405 grains though I don't recall it's exact weight. I had issues with leading so I went to a gas check mould. It would likely not have been necessary if I had a better grasp on slugging and sizing at the time. IIRC I used something close to a Lyman #2 alloy. Personally - I'd put casting on the back burner until you figure out loading. You can spend a little or a lot on casting, but it's time consuming and there are plenty of variables to mess with. If you're going to be doing a lot of rifle reloading I'd look for an rcbs rockchucker as a press. It's is a good solid dependable press that will outlast you. I now load rifle on a Forster Co-ax, but it's an expensive press and I don't think it's advantages would help you loading for a .45-70. The lyman manual is good. I have an older Hornady manual also that I've always liked for the basics. |
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Thanks. Where the hell do I start with casting? Is it expensive? Carbide dies, I'm assuming? Which powders? Which books? This a good start? Buy two lyman manuals.. 50th and the casting manual. With 45-70 you have 3 levels of pressure. I am not a huge guy and dont like my head rattled so I run "trapdoor" loads in all my rifles. You will need another thread for casting.. just too much to discuss and it will eat up this thread. I use IMR 4198 for full power smokeless. I back it down to trapdoor pressures but you can rev it up if you prefer. My "plinking" load is 13gr of Red Dot (search "The Load")... Nice level of recoil in my Henry. I prefer to shoot black powder in my sharps... Will add more details later.. |
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Skip the BL and get the RL. Just use it with one price of brass when starting out. Don't load the whole carousel when yore learning. By the time you buy a BL and the. Later have to buy the parts to upgrade it to an RL you've spent more than just buying the RL.
A rock chucker or big boss are the single stages I suggest when asked. Any of cast iron will work. Skip the lee metal alloy presses. Their classic cast will be plenty good. |
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Absolutely you could load black. Black will work in anything. You just won't get the performance. Nice! I just think it'd be neat. I didn't know if I'd run into fouling issues or anything else I haven't thought about. (Since I lack the expertise.) I think I'd want to do that, just for fun. |
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Skip the BL and get the RL. Just use it with one price of brass when starting out. Don't load the whole carousel when yore learning. By the time you buy a BL and the. Later have to buy the parts to upgrade it to an RL you've spent more than just buying the RL. A rock chucker or big boss are the single stages I suggest when asked. Any of cast iron will work. Skip the lee metal alloy presses. Their classic cast will be plenty good. Sorry, I misspoke. I meant the RL. I'm admittedly ignorant. Why do you prefer the Rock Chucker over the RL? I don't have the knowledge base to understand the small differences between new single stage presses. |
| I'm not positive - but if you're thinking of loading black powder you need to be careful. I don't think you are supposed to run BP through standard presses and powder measures. IF thats the case then you'll want to stick with single stage presses and handle powder off the press. |
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The Rockchucker kit is a good one to start with in a single stage.
The Dillon RL is a turret press that can later be upgraded to a progressive if you desire. You should gain some knowledge by reading the ABC's of Reloading, the book for the beginner. Explains the tools, the components you load with, and how to reload. Get a Lyman 50 reloading manual for loading data. You want to know about casting, Free casting book you can print out. A well written book that takes you from the tools to how to cast. I would hold off casting until you have reloading down though. Read ABC's and you will have a better idea of the great hobby you are getting into. Welcome to the Reloading Forum. 
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Black powder will work in any press... sort of. Just a lot more to think about in terms of measuring.
I would not run it in my Henry. Do some research on cleaning rifles for black powder. I rinse my BP guns with garden hose before I clean to get the salts off.. Keep in mind, the Henry wont feed the really heavies that are typical of BP. I am not 100% sure of this next sentence.. Most if not all factory ammo is designed around trapdoor pressures (cause they dont want you to shoot it in a trapdoor and blow it up). Thus its likely that you have not experienced the heavier recoil possible in this caliber. You have some fun ahead. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. |
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Black powder will work in any press... sort of. Just a lot more to think about in terms of measuring. I would not run it in my Henry. Do some research on cleaning rifles for black powder. I rinse my BP guns with garden hose before I clean to get the salts off.. Keep in mind, the Henry wont feed the really heavies that are typical of BP. I am not 100% sure of this next sentence.. Most if not all factory ammo is designed around trapdoor pressures (cause they dont want you to shoot it in a trapdoor and blow it up). Thus its likely that you have not experienced the heavier recoil possible in this caliber. You have some fun ahead. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. I've shot just about every factory load for 45-70 that's out there. BB, Garrett, etc. I won't puff my chest out though, because I know reloaders take it up a notch. Just so you guys know I'm serious about doing this, and you aren't wasting your time, here's about half of my current 45-70 stash. I LOVE this cartridge. Attached File |
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I've shot just about every factory load for 45-70 that's out there. BB, Garrett, etc. I won't puff my chest out though, because I know reloaders take it up a notch. Just so you guys know I'm serious about doing this, and you aren't wasting your time, here's about half of my current 45-70 stash. I LOVE this cartridge. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/425212/20161222-220206-1587x2827-112773.JPG Man... sad to see that much factory ammo... I will post more tips tomorrow. You can load on 550 but you will probably want to size on a single stage. 5 stages would better though. |
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OP, lets break this down a little better (needed in IMHO):
1. Concentrate on learning reloading with smokeless powder loads. Get the ABC's of Reloading, get the Lyman Manual, and one other of your choice, study up, and if you can find a digest of loads solely for .45-70 get that too. 2. Bullet Casting: Is a whole other hobby requiring an even bigger emphasis on safe procedures. With a smelting pot, if not extremely cautious you can have a very "volcanic" event in your midst, amazing how a small amount of water or condensate can enter the picture and cause a very dynamic reaction. Then there are fumes, so the location must be suited etc. This hobby takes the risk of pissing off the wife to another level. Once you learn reloading, then consider bullet casting. 3. Black Powder Cartridge: Is an art all to itself, whole books are dedicated to this one hobby. It is not really that easy to get black powder cartridge loads that are accurate. You need a suitable brass powder drop tube, a standard powder measure is NOT safe. Well made lead bullets in the correct alloy for black powder are not readily available for sale like for bullets for smokeless reloading. Bullets have to be sized well to fit your barrel. The best black powder cartridge shooters use bullets cast from good quality molds, and usually Sharps style rifles, $$$$$. The lube required is different than that used for lead bullets in smokeless reloading. You cant have a large air gap in a cartridge case with black powder, it risks a detonation type reaction and can be dangerous to the rifle and maybe you. So once again, learn reloading for smokeless powder, then consider branching off into this specialty, just my humble advice. Oh yes, also as stated previously, shooting black powder loads in a Henry lever rifle will probably make cleaning much more complicated. |
| I love my dillon. But I load 90% of my rifle ammo on my rock chucker. Everyone should have a single stage press. I use it when ladder testing rounds. Get a good single stage press to start out on. Heck might be able to get a good used one in the EE. I haven't done any casting but I'd learn how to reload first. Casting seems like a whole other hobby in a way. |
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OP, lets break this down a little better (needed in IMHO): 1. Concentrate on learning reloading with smokeless powder loads. Get the ABC's of Reloading, get the Lyman Manual, and one other of your choice, study up, and if you can find a digest of loads solely for .45-70 get that too. 2. Bullet Casting: Is a whole other hobby requiring an even bigger emphasis on safe procedures. With a smelting pot, if not extremely cautious you can have a very "volcanic" event in your midst, amazing how a small amount of water or condensate can enter the picture and cause a very dynamic reaction. Then there are fumes, so the location must be suited etc. This hobby takes the risk of pissing off the wife to another level. Once you learn reloading, then consider bullet casting. 3. Black Powder Cartridge: Is an art all to itself, whole books are dedicated to this one hobby. It is not really that easy to get black powder cartridge loads that are accurate. You need a suitable brass powder drop tube, a standard powder measure is NOT safe. Well made lead bullets in the correct alloy for black powder are not readily available for sale like for bullets for smokeless reloading. Bullets have to be sized well to fit your barrel. The best black powder cartridge shooters use bullets cast from good quality molds, and usually Sharps style rifles, $$$. The lube required is different than that used for lead bullets in smokeless reloading. You cant have a large air gap in a cartridge case with black powder, it risks a detonation type reaction and can be dangerous to the rifle and maybe you. So once again, learn reloading for smokeless powder, then consider branching off into this specialty, just my humble advice. Oh yes, also as stated previously, shooting black powder loads in a Henry lever rifle will probably make cleaning much more complicated. Thanks for bringing me down to earth. I worried about the corrosive nature of BP, and casting seems exciting. I'm asking too much and should take it simple and slow. |
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I love my dillon. But I load 90% of my rifle ammo on my rock chucker. Everyone should have a single stage press. I use it when ladder testing rounds. Get a good single stage press to start out on. Heck might be able to get a good used one in the EE. I haven't done any casting but I'd learn how to reload first. Casting seems like a whole other hobby in a way. Noted. I've been looking at other sites and they also recommend single stage both for the stable, newbies, and 45-70. I fit all three. |
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.45-70 is a fantastic place to start with your reloading adventure.
You can make everything from gallery/mouse fart loads all the way up to bone-jarring stump busters, depending on what suits your needs. You'll never save any money, but you'll probably shoot a lot more. 
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You don't need a press for .45-70, watch this old timer.
 45-70 reload |
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45-70 is a great round to reload, fun, easy, and a ton of variety. Make a friend who casts bullets. My friend wants me to cast him some 45-70 bullets for his 458 socom. "Can you cast me 500-1000?" For my 350gr mold... you can get 20 from a oound of lead... So 50lbs to reach his 1k goal and a heck of a lot of time. no thanks. Most 45-70 molds are 1-2 cavity. If you have a good friend who will cast you a few to try, great. But careful what you ask for. He wont be a friend for long. |
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You don't need a press for .45-70, watch this old timer.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3duhNVjAu6EThat's pretty cool. |
| Might want to give this thread a look, Great how to reload thread |
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Might want to give this thread a look, Great how to reload thread Thanks. I will read it in its entirety tonight. |
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45/70 is a good caliber to start on being about the same as a straight wall pistol (on steroids)
I like the Lyman books for reloading data and how to reload Even most guys with high end progressive setups also have a single stage on the bench because it makes it simpler to do some tasks. The RCBS kit is good, good scale, best hand primer , great press , great powder measure. Don't overlook used stuff. if you end up going part by part consider a Lee Turret press. the turret is a bit more convenient to use than a single stage. You use it the same way but save lots of time screwing around with dies and adjustments. I do not at all recommend Lee brand scales or powder measures. They are cheap plastic that is so hard to use they are dangerous. Lee progressive are total trash |
RCBS dies. Dillon lube. Do not forget the lube. You will only do this once. 
I load black powder. I use a very soft bullet and a cardboard insert/thin wad between the powder and bullet. Works great in my Sharps clone. No need for carbide dies whatsoever. I would be surprised if they are even offered in that caliber. |
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RCBS dies. Dillon lube. Do not forget the lube. You will only do this once.
I load black powder. I use a very soft bullet and a cardboard insert/thin wad between the powder and bullet. Works great in my Sharps clone. No need for carbide dies whatsoever. I would be surprised if they are even offered in that caliber. I have had great success using Hornady One shot... skip the lube cleaning. Even appears to work in my BP reloads. Agree though.. this case absolutely needs lube. OP, most straight wall cases dont need lube. Look closely at the case though. It is NOT straight walled. One reason a single stage is recommended is the amount of force needed to size. My Hornady didnt have the leverage without serious force. Single stages are fine and so is my PC7. Not sure about 550... but guessing its fine. |
This look okay?
 
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I added 45/70 to my reloading when I picked up a Marlin 1895.
I use my lee classic turret to load with. I forget what brand die set I bought, but I do use the Lee factory crimp die. I also bought a 45/70 case gauge. I'm using starline brass, rainer/hornady bullets and whatever large rifle primers I have at the time. Powders I've used are H4198 and Varget because I had both on hand. I picked up some trail boss to try out some lighter subsonic rounds, but I'll probably try trail boss in 45/70. I've used these bullets from midway. 350GR plated bullets Somebody posted last week about having problems in 458socom. I had problems at first, but i reduced my COL to solve my problem of closing the bolt. I haven't experienced the other person's problem with these bulelts. Here is some data I gathered over the summer. Winchester 300JHP as control 1634 1675 1732 1698 1611 Rainier 350GR plated FN with ~50GR of Varget COL 2.525 1551 1562 1624 1473 1531 Hornady 300GR JHP with ~55GR H4198 COL 2.550 2387 2296 2290 2368 2355 Hornady 300GR JHP with ~59.5GR H4198 COL 2.550 2523 2459 2512 2489 2524 |
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http://www.midwayusa.com/product/423081/lee-challenger-breech-lock-single-stage-press-anniversary-kit
I started loading with the Lee anniversary kit. After I got into it, I got a dillon 650. Great starter kit for the price. Would still be using it, but came across a screaming deal on a RCBS setup. Gave the Lee to a buddy. |
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Lets back up on the 45-70, since best case, your not going to be volume shooting it to begin with before shoulder tried to fall off shooting full loads.
Is the game plan to shoot smokeless or BP to begin with. Next if smokeless, lets just say that on a progressive machine, you really, really want to run ball powder to get unform drops. Hence if you are throwing extruded gran powders, your not going to be happy with the drops on a progressive machine. If your reloading in BP, then is not down on a progressive machine instead. Hence BP loading in 45-70 requires a long drop tube to get the powder to first compress on the drop into the case, and even then, your still using fiber wads to get the powder fully compressed if the powder amount is not enough for the bullet to compact it on bullet seating instead. Lastly, if the plan to shoot jacketed bullets, or to shoot cast bullets isntead to keep the price down. On a firearm that is rifled for cast bullets and even loaded with BP, you can push PC bullets up to around 1800FPS without having to gas check them. In smokeless with PC cast bullets, if your pushing over 1800fps, then you need to add gas checks isntead. Truth is, with the hurdles of getting 45-70 correct (being it BP or extruded gran powders), it's the one caliber that I always reload on a single stage press. Hence starts with trickling powder to unify the drop (even with extruded grain Smokeless), and in the case of BP, it send down the drop tube to be begin with, the needed amount of fiber wads added, then just seat the bullet by hand on the cases while still in the reloading block, then run through the press to first seat the bullets, then a second time to crimp the bullets in place. So in 45-70/40-65/45-120 , even in BP, still average around 300 bullets a hour, and way more that I will ever shoot in one shooting session to start with. |
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