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Posted: 8/12/2016 12:14:38 PM EDT
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Just getting into hand loading for accuracy and was wondering about primers. I just bought some Lapua brass, Varget powder and a number of different grain projectiles 53,55,60,68,77. Some are Hornady some are Nosler. I have a Noveske SS 1-7 twist 16" barrel. Im trying to see just how accurate an ar15 can get just need to dial in some ammo. Any suggestions on supplies are welcome. Thanks edit to change Farget to Varget. dryflash3 |
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Yes. Primers can affect accuracy. BUT......
Most noticeably with a bench rest and long range (600 yds +) guns. What is your intended purpose with this rifle? If its to find the smallest groups at some X distance? To hold the X-ring on NRA XTC targets at known distances? To use in 3 gun matches? Etc. All depends on what your "mission" is.... perhaps just to get the most accurate load out of this rifle when shot at 100 yards.... off a bench...using suitable bench rest techniques. Is this something you can do? Or do you shoot slung up, prone, off the ground? In any case start with a primer that's most available to you. I shoot NRA XTC with a AR Service RIfle (20" bbl), Why 20"??? Longer sight radius as until this year the we could only use the "open" sights. I use Remington 7 1/2 and/or Wolf/Tula Primers. Why??? Because for my type of shooting they have shown to be a "good" primer. A wildly used load for my type of shooting uses Varget and the 70ish grain bullets in our 1/7 - 1/8 twist barrels. You purchased real good brass BUT its abit over kill. You should get several firings thru them before you see them "wear out". (loose pockets). Consult some current reloading manuals. Also you might check out the Accurate Shooters web-sight. Enjoy your adventure. |
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Not enough that you will ever notice when fired in an AR15.
The concerns with primers in an AR are safety and reliability. Too-thin primers may pierce ( CCI 400 or any "standard" small rifle primer are the usual suspects ) Primers seated too tall are a slam-fire risk. Thinner primers are at greater risk than thicker primers. |
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Quoted: Just getting into hand loading for accuracy and was wondering about primers. I just bought some Lapua brass, Varget powder and a number of different grain projectiles 53,55,60,68,77. Some are Hornady some are Nosler. I have a Noveske SS 1-7 twist 16" barrel. Im trying to see just how accurate an ar15 can get just need to dial in some ammo. Any suggestions on supplies are welcome. Thanks edit to change Farget to Varget. dryflash3 Due to formatting issues on this site, run on paragraphs are hard to read. Hard to read = less responses. Please doublespace after complete sentences like I'm doing here. You are going to hate how Varget measures, terrible through a powder measure. You also need a drop tube. I use IMR-8208 XBR (short grain extruded) and CFE 223 (ball) powder thrown from a powder measure in my precision loads. These measure well. With your rifle twist rate I would stick with 69 gr (Sierra MK) and Sierra 77 gr. I have found the Hornady 68 gr less accurate than the Sierra 69 gr. I suggest Rem 7 1/2 Match primers. Laupa is great brass, take pains not to lose it. Welcome to Arfcom and the Reloading Forum.  |
| In rifles way more so than handguns, Primers can and do make a lot of difference. I have seen groups cut in half going from Fed 210 to 210M primers, ie going from 3in at 300 yds to 1.5 inches with an ES of less than ten.. Some powders seem to like some primers better than other options. Let your gun do the talking! |
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Quoted:
Not enough that you will ever notice when fired in an AR15. The concerns with primers in an AR are safety and reliability. Too-thin primers may pierce ( CCI 400 or any "standard" small rifle primer are the usual suspects ) Primers seated too tall are a slam-fire risk. Thinner primers are at greater risk than thicker primers. I think you are the only person I have ever heard say that about it not really mattering in a AR. I know quite a few High Power and similar rifle competitors that would very much disagree with you. |
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Yes. But I think bullet and powder matter more, and am confident that most reloaders would agree with me on that. I have never heard of anyone taking a poor bullet/powder combo and making it great by switching out the brand of primer, although I am sure someone has done it. This is an interesting article on the subject. CFE 223, 69 gr SMK, and any Remington, Winchester, or Federal primers you can easily get would be where I would start first if I were you. Good luck!  |
| Could be all in my head, but rem 7 1/2's and fed 205's are always my first pick, i dont like cci 400's at all, i can be shooting and out of the blue i get a blown primer, same powder charges as the other 2, dont even phase em. varget powder is also not for me, if you like stick powder try imr 4320, one of my faves. |
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Thanks for all the tips everyone.
I've heard of feeding problems with the Varget, but I intend on weighing each charge out one at a time. After researching for awhile I found a lot of people like Varget so just thought I had to start somewhere. I'm sure it won't be the last powder I try. As for how I will be shooting. Mostly off a bench and sand bag, but also standing up and maybe prone as well, never tried. Ranges will be 100, 200, and 300 yards. On a side note, does crimping affect accuracy? |
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I have yet to notice a significant difference with primers. Actually switched my match load from CCI BR to Wolf and saw no appreciable difference using XBR 8208. That's out of a 24" barreled 308 though so there could be more SD with a shorter barrel I guess.
I will do you a favor and recommend something I should have bought years ago. An electronic powder measure. I have the RCBS and it has changed loading for precision from a tedious, slow and boring process to a relatively fast and enjoyable one. This is especially true with stick powders. Even with 8208 I see .5 gr. variations with my powder measure. At the mild pressures I load at it may be negligible but it drives me insane - Hence the electronic magic box. |
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Quoted: Thanks for all the tips everyone. I've heard of feeding problems with the Varget, but I intend on weighing each charge out one at a time. You can do that, but throwing charges of CFE 223 (ball powder)from my powder measure is much more convenient. Same or better accuracy as Varget without the fuss. After researching for awhile I found a lot of people like Varget so just thought I had to start somewhere. I'm sure it won't be the last powder I try. As for how I will be shooting. Mostly off a bench and sand bag, but also standing up and maybe prone as well, never tried. Ranges will be 100, 200, and 300 yards. On a side note, does crimping affect accuracy? |
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On the crimping...I've been reading and studying on this for a bit recently. While I didn't find an absolute, undisputable "truth" to the question of accuracy and crimping, I saw an overwhelming pattern of long range, bolt rifle shooters leaning toward no crimp.
That "kind of" tells me that it doesn't affect accuracy in the simplest sense. However, I found opinions and even some DIY tests for semiautos to be all over the board. Maybe someone will provide the version of an actual Moses' ten commandments evidence that it's critical or it's not. For me, I've seen enough evidence on my reloads and factory rounds that indicate it can be a tough life for a cartridge chambering into many semiauto guns like AR's. The next time you've been shooting an AR and still have a cartridge in the chamber that was loaded from the mag by the weapon under actual firing, eject it and inspect it. Most of mine have at least some minor markings from the bolt, feed ramps, and or chamber to some degree. I feel much more confident with at least a light crimp from a Lee factory crimp die for my AR's. |
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Quoted: On the crimping...I've been reading and studying on this for a bit recently. While I didn't find an absolute, undisputable "truth" to the question of accuracy and crimping, I saw an overwhelming pattern of long range, bolt rifle shooters leaning toward no crimp. That "kind of" tells me that it doesn't affect accuracy in the simplest sense. However, I found opinions and even some DIY tests for semiautos to be all over the board. Maybe someone will provide the version of an actual Moses' ten commandments evidence that it's critical or it's not. For me, I've seen enough evidence on my reloads and factory rounds that indicate it can be a tough life for a cartridge chambering into many semiauto guns like AR's. The next time you've been shooting an AR and still have a cartridge in the chamber that was loaded from the mag by the weapon under actual firing, eject it and inspect it. Most of mine have at least some minor markings from the bolt, feed ramps, and or chamber to some degree. I feel much more confident with at least a light crimp from a Lee factory crimp die for my AR's. I'm talking about rifle crimping here not pistol. Crimp is one of those *optional thing in rifle reloading. *(there are always exceptions) There are some "must crimp" reloaders out there as well a "never crimp" guys. I'm somewhere in between.  Crimped round on top, lower round seated not crimped. LFCD used. Generally bullets with cannelures are crimped. A good example is 30-30. Where you don't want bullets to drive back in the case in a tubular magazine. In 223 I crimp 55 and 62 gr FMJBT's that have a cannelure. Doesn't need a crimp, but I do anyway because I want to. I like to have good neck tension and not crimp when I can. 223 non cannelured bullets I don't crimp and would never crimp a match bullet. In 300 blk, I've found that crimping (LFCD) improves my accuracy. (Lee Factory Crimp Die) The best thing to do is test your loads with and without crimp and see what works best for you. eta, If you don't understand neck tension say so as it's important. |
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Quoted:
Not enough that you will ever notice when fired in an AR15. The concerns with primers in an AR are safety and reliability. Too-thin primers may pierce ( CCI 400 or any "standard" small rifle primer are the usual suspects ) Primers seated too tall are a slam-fire risk. Thinner primers are at greater risk than thicker primers. I ran out of CCI SR primers and tried some Tula I had. I reshot a series and what had been nice round groups displayed dramatic horizontal stringing. Everything else was the same. Used the same pieces of brass, same range, etc. Maybe a rare circumstance, but it happened to me. Also, the horizontal stringing progressed with powder charge changes, so it wasn't a fluke on my shooting. The tula were not magnum primers. YMMV. |
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dryflash...yes, I knew we were talking about rifle. I'm still learning here on some of the details here, so bear with me. On .243 and .308 bolt guns I never crimped.
However, now I'm deep into reloading for .223 AR and other semiautos and soon will reload for my two AR10 .308's. You state that you don't crimp your match bullets. Is this because of the possibility of deforming the bullet? In some of the reading I mentioned, I saw that issue mentioned and saw pics of some badly "squished" match bullets. Here's what I noticed in my case of using Hornady 68g match HPBT's and crimping with the Lee FCD. I lightly crimp those bullets in Lake City brass. I can see the crimp, but it's definitely light...maybe just a hair short of that half turn that Lee starts at in their data. Having seen those "mushed" match bullet pics, I pulled a couple of bullets to actually see what my crimp was doing to these Hornady 68's. I can detect the tiniest curvature on the jacket, and really it's more like a vague line. Being that I'm not going Arnold Schwarzeneggar on the crimp, it's hard to believe that I'm going to harm accuracy to any degree...but...like I said, I'm still new to .223 reloading and crimping. My results are nothing like the pics of crimping I'm seeing...or maybe overcrimping. Also I've seen a few threads about the Hornady match .223 bullets being a little more robust than say the Sierra Match King similar bullet. I'm just concerned about the magazine and chambering abuse that many AR bullets get, hence my reason for crimping now. Again...not arguing the issue...trying to learn more about it. |
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Quoted: dryflash...yes, I knew we were talking about rifle. I'm still learning here on some of the details here, so bear with me. On .243 and .308 bolt guns I never crimped. However, now I'm deep into reloading for .223 AR and other semiautos and soon will reload for my two AR10 .308's. You state that you don't crimp your match bullets. Is this because of the possibility of deforming the bullet? Yes, and it's not needed anyway with proper neck tension. In some of the reading I mentioned, I saw that issue mentioned and saw pics of some badly "squished" match bullets. New reloaders like to overcrimp it seems. Here's what I noticed in my case of using Hornady 68g match HPBT's and crimping with the Lee FCD. I lightly crimp those bullets in Lake City brass. I can see the crimp, but it's definitely light...maybe just a hair short of that half turn that Lee starts at in their data. Quoted: dryflash...yes, I knew we were talking about rifle. I'm still learning here on some of the details here, so bear with me. On .243 and .308 bolt guns I never crimped. However, now I'm deep into reloading for .223 AR and other semiautos and soon will reload for my two AR10 .308's. You state that you don't crimp your match bullets. Is this because of the possibility of deforming the bullet? Yes, and it's not needed anyway with proper neck tension. In some of the reading I mentioned, I saw that issue mentioned and saw pics of some badly "squished" match bullets. New reloaders like to overcrimp it seems. Here's what I noticed in my case of using Hornady 68g match HPBT's and crimping with the Lee FCD. I lightly crimp those bullets in Lake City brass. I can see the crimp, but it's definitely light...maybe just a hair short of that half turn that Lee starts at in their data.  You adjust a rifle FCD by looking straight down at it. Notice the 4 gaps between the collets. This pic is of the crimped 30-30 case in my last post. The gap is closed half way, I call that a standard crimp. A light crimp would be 1/4 closed. So forget # of turns, slowly lower die until you get the amount of closure you want. Crimp a case look at it, adjust accordingly. Having seen those "mushed" match bullet pics, I pulled a couple of bullets to actually see what my crimp was doing to these Hornady 68's. I can detect the tiniest curvature on the jacket, and really it's more like a vague line. Being that I'm not going Arnold Schwarzeneggar on the crimp, it's hard to believe that I'm going to harm accuracy to any degree...but...like I said, I'm still new to .223 reloading and crimping. You aren't doing harm unless you want the best accuracy. If you want best accuracy use Sierra 69 gr Match Kings. My groups went from 1 1/2 (68 gr Hornady) to .75 inches (69 gr Siera MK), 10 shot 100 yds. My results are nothing like the pics of crimping I'm seeing...or maybe overcrimping. Also I've seen a few threads about the Hornady match .223 bullets being a little more robust than say the Sierra Match King similar bullet. I'm just concerned about the magazine and chambering abuse that many AR bullets get, hence my reason for crimping now. Again...not arguing the issue...trying to learn more about it. Once I get you to understand neck tension, you will forget crimping match bullets. Look it up and then we can continue. My AR feed the 69 gr Sierra just fine, don't know what you heard, but it was probably wrong. |
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Quoted:
I'm talking about rifle crimping here not pistol. Crimp is one of those *optional thing in rifle reloading. *(there are always exceptions) There are some "must crimp" reloaders out there as well a "never crimp" guys. I'm somewhere in between. <a href="http://s250.photobucket.com/user/dryflash3/media/30-30/PB090609.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/dryflash3/30-30/PB090609.jpg</a> Crimped round on top, lower round seated not crimped. LFCD used. Generally bullets with cannelures are crimped. A good example is 30-30. Where you don't want bullets to drive back in the case in a tubular magazine. In 223 I crimp 55 and 62 gr FMJBT's that have a cannelure. Doesn't need a crimp, but I do anyway because I want to. I like to have good neck tension and not crimp when I can. 223 non cannelured bullets I don't crimp and would never crimp a match bullet. In 300 blk, I've found that crimping (LFCD) improves my accuracy. (Lee Factory Crimp Die) The best thing to do is test your loads with and without crimp and see what works best for you. eta, If you don't understand neck tension say so as it's important. Quoted:
Quoted:
On the crimping...I've been reading and studying on this for a bit recently. While I didn't find an absolute, undisputable "truth" to the question of accuracy and crimping, I saw an overwhelming pattern of long range, bolt rifle shooters leaning toward no crimp. That "kind of" tells me that it doesn't affect accuracy in the simplest sense. However, I found opinions and even some DIY tests for semiautos to be all over the board. Maybe someone will provide the version of an actual Moses' ten commandments evidence that it's critical or it's not. For me, I've seen enough evidence on my reloads and factory rounds that indicate it can be a tough life for a cartridge chambering into many semiauto guns like AR's. The next time you've been shooting an AR and still have a cartridge in the chamber that was loaded from the mag by the weapon under actual firing, eject it and inspect it. Most of mine have at least some minor markings from the bolt, feed ramps, and or chamber to some degree. I feel much more confident with at least a light crimp from a Lee factory crimp die for my AR's. I'm talking about rifle crimping here not pistol. Crimp is one of those *optional thing in rifle reloading. *(there are always exceptions) There are some "must crimp" reloaders out there as well a "never crimp" guys. I'm somewhere in between. <a href="http://s250.photobucket.com/user/dryflash3/media/30-30/PB090609.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/dryflash3/30-30/PB090609.jpg</a> Crimped round on top, lower round seated not crimped. LFCD used. Generally bullets with cannelures are crimped. A good example is 30-30. Where you don't want bullets to drive back in the case in a tubular magazine. In 223 I crimp 55 and 62 gr FMJBT's that have a cannelure. Doesn't need a crimp, but I do anyway because I want to. I like to have good neck tension and not crimp when I can. 223 non cannelured bullets I don't crimp and would never crimp a match bullet. In 300 blk, I've found that crimping (LFCD) improves my accuracy. (Lee Factory Crimp Die) The best thing to do is test your loads with and without crimp and see what works best for you. eta, If you don't understand neck tension say so as it's important. Good pic and a good reason to crimp, 30-30 or any tube fed weapon requires it. Back to the OPs question, primers can affect accuracy a great deal, contrary to what some have stated. Ball powders almost all need a bit hotter primer, than extruded powders. Win748, needs a Win Small Rifle or even hotter to light evenly. I tried it with CCI primers and was not happy with the powder in my 5.56 loads. Ball powders require hotter primers than extruded powders. |
| Yes, primers do effect accuracy. I'm a HM NRA service rifle shooter and primer selection is enough for me to notice when I shoot, an expert might not notice the difference. Primer/ powder combinations also effect your SD and ES as does weighing brass. If you are shooting 600yd your looking for 25fps or so ES. If your load produces more then that then no matter what you do your going to have some elevation issues due to the velocity variations. I work primer selection as the last experimentation variable once I have a powder charge. 7 1/2s have worked well for me and that's what I use for 500-600. |
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It's like dryflash said about crimping- it's all about neck tension, if you have good neck tension don't crimp. if you have poor neck tension fix it- adjust your decap neck sizer ring, some are way to big, get em down to 222-223, try 223 first, if it dont give the tension you want go to .222. You dont need no stinkin crimp.
and if you have a magazine that sits to low or at the wrong angle to the feed ramp throw it away. |
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