Armory Sponsor
Posted: 6/23/2016 8:44:43 AM EDT
|
I have been gathering information to reload .223/5.56 for a 300 yard varmint rifle and got to thinking about brass. I realize there are different styles of primers and that military brass has crimps. Etc.
My questions are regarding the safety and specs of the brass and the way it is made. Is there enough difference from one manufacturer to another to worry about it? Are there certain brands/manufacturers that one should stay away from? If properly cleaned and sized, how much can using once fired bulk brass affect accuracy? Or is the difference negligible? |
|
Depending on the level of competition in your upcoming match, I would think you have two choices.
Select a moderately decent one-fired brass like Lake City and give each and every case a very thorough overhaul. You'll have to measure, resize, trim, chamfer, deburr the flash hole, uniform the primer pockets, skim turn the necks, anneal the brass, and then weight sort the brass if you don't actually measure case capacity directly. Or, if the competition isn't too fierce, just buy Lapua brass and load it. If the competition IS fierce, then you gotta' go through the complete overhaul process with the Lapua brass with the possible exception of deburring the flash holes. Where I shoot, most if not all the competitors in the top half of the scoring sheet use Lapua brass. Accuracy requires both financial outlay and work. You can trade one off against another, but you can't simply buy accuracy. Unfortunately, success at the highest levels of the shooting sports is like most other sports. They guys who spend the most money AND invest in the most hard work often come out on top. But a bit further down the food chain (where most of us ordinary shooters live), you can spend a little money, invest a LOT of work, and do quite well. But having a tiny budget and being lazy as well is a recipe for failure. |
|
First off I'm not sure exactly what your goal is. I'm assuming you're wanting very accurate loads for varmint hunting and target shooting up to 300 yards.
I would not used mixed lots of brass. There is enough differences between brands or even lots within a brand to make your groups less than they could be with a monotype of brass. Now if you're shooting pistol or action rifle shooting say in 3 gun, you probably can get away with it but it's not my choice to run mixed lots. As far as safety, there are mostly good and reputable brass makers out there. Some are better than others. There are also one or two fly by night companies that come and go and actually put out a dangerous product in my opinion. There was one brand I can't recall the name at the moment but for awhile here there were a handful of kaboomed rifles posted here and on other websites where the case head failed and blew the gun. Soft or shitty brass heads were the culprit. Stick with known brass is best; LC, Winchester, Remington, IMI, Prvi Partisan, Hornady, etc. When in doubt and you have brass in hand google it and see if there are some stories floating around out there to give you the low down. Another caution.....on range pick up brass, can you tell if the brass is new or has been loaded 7 times already. That's rather important. Generally I only deal with known history brass. Sometimes there's a reason why the shooter left it on the range, often times because they decided that they already used up it's life. Now you come a long and hope to give it 7-10 more loadings. Be careful and be judicious on which brass you take. ETA- I believe A-Merc was the spooky brass a while ago. IIRC it wasn't just their .223 either. I have avoided it and thrown theirs in the scrap bucket if inadvertently picked up. |
|
Quoted:
First off I'm not sure exactly what your goal is. I'm assuming you're wanting very accurate loads for varmint hunting and target shooting up to 300 yards. I would not used mixed lots of brass. There is enough differences between brands or even lots within a brand to make your groups less than they could be with a monotype of brass. Now if you're shooting pistol or action rifle shooting say in 3 gun, you probably can get away with it but it's not my choice to run mixed lots. As far as safety, there are mostly good and reputable brass makers out there. Some are better than others. There are also one or two fly by night companies that come and go and actually put out a dangerous product in my opinion. There was one brand I can't recall the name at the moment but for awhile here there were a handful of kaboomed rifles posted here and on other websites where the case head failed and blew the gun. Soft or shitty brass heads were the culprit. Stick with known brass is best; LC, Winchester, Remington, IMI, Prvi Partisan, Hornady, etc. When in doubt and you have brass in hand google it and see if there are some stories floating around out there to give you the low down. Another caution.....on range pick up brass, can you tell if the brass is new or has been loaded 7 times already. That's rather important. Generally I only deal with known history brass. Sometimes there's a reason why the shooter left it on the range, often times because they decided that they already used up it's life. Now you come a long and hope to give it 7-10 more loadings. Be careful and be judicious on which brass you take. ETA- I believe A-Merc was the spooky brass a while ago. IIRC it wasn't just their .223 either. I have avoided it and thrown theirs in the scrap bucket if inadvertently picked up. Thank you. You did very well in answering my questions. Very much appreciated. And, yes, I'm looking for decent accuracy as you assumed. The question will be "Am I capable of accuracy". Only time and rounds downrange can answer that. So, all of this may be for nothing really. The hands aren't nearly as steady as they once were. And the eyes don't see as well either. As for the use of range brass, if I went that route, I would only by from indoor ranges that make their patrons purchase ammo from the range. I would say the odds are in favor of it being once fired. But one still couldn't know for certain. |
|
For what you're doing I would stick with one brand of brass of known origin.
For my 3gun match loads I use known once fired brass (brass I've had to remove the crimp or from someone who was shooting factory ammo that gave me their brass). I'm not looking for extreme accuracy so mixed brass works for me (100 yards is usually max around here). Plinking loads I use any brass that looks serviceable. |
|
True, that may be a good source of brass for you.
I humbly suggest you go out and buy some black hills red box ammo in the bullet version you like. They make 52 match, 55 fmj, as well as the 69 and 77 grain stuff and probably more. The 52 match would be my choice. The red box is new casings, Their blue box is factory reloads in LC brass. Their red box new brass is or at least was made by Winchester with the black hills headstamp and is good stuff and should be all the accuracy you need. Once you fire it, you can do things to help accuracy; trim to uniform length (hey, you need to trim eventually anyhow, you can uniform flash holes with an inexpensive screw driver tool, and you can uniform the primer pockets. The flash hole and primer pocket work can be skipped and would only be of minor help in your accuracy. Some do it just because but chances are you won't see it help on paper. With a bolt gun you can neck size too. Every so often you will need a full length size to bump the shoulders. The least you size the better the consistency. Unless you're using the ammo in more than one .223 rifle I would just bump the shoulders 0.002" every time and call it good. ETA- that said any regular name known brass should work as long as it's all the same and even better the same lot. Only thing I might mention is the federal brass is softer and the primer pockets go loose with hot loads. They should be good for mild loads for at least a few loadings. They may or may not have addressed this but a lot of folks used to complain about it. Shame too as I could get all the federal brass I wanted at work for a time. I didn't want it. I already learned my lesson doing all the match prep type work on .308 brass and it was loose after 2 loads. So I avoid it still. A good 52 match (cheaper from Nosler), or any of the plastic tipped varmint bullets and you should have the makings of what you seek. I love the 55 Nosler ballistic tips in my el cheapo 700 adl with the plastic tupper ware stock. It'll do sub inch groups easily. You should find you will too. |
|
Quoted: Thanks. That information is really appreciated. But not doing competitions. It's a varmint gun. Just looking to build rounds that have an accuracy potential higher than your standard plinker is worried about. If you're not talking huge volume of shooting- like a week long prairie dog shoot, then just spring for 100-200 pieces of the Lapua. The increase in accuracy is worth it. |
|
americ is junk brass in any caliber. I don't use FC rifle cases. Soft head that lead to early primer pocket enlargement. In 223 cases are very short, to me FC brass is not worth the effort to prep. I have had once fired cases that had loose primer pockets. FC makes great pistol brass.  PMP (South African) is heavy/thick wall brass. Reduce loads 2 full grains below what you would use in a Win, LC, PMC case. High quality cases, just less capacity. That's a Hornady crimp reamer that I use to remove the primer crimp. I suggest you sort cases to headstamp, my favorites in this order, Win, RP, Hornady, PMC, LC, WCC ect. Size then trim them to all the same length, debur, remove crimp if needed and load. Good Luck. |
I'll most likely buy factory rounds and fire them or new brass for accuracy loads. Depends on the thickness of my wallet at the time .
That will be the primary use of my rifle. But we all like to just let loose every once in a while. So, I'll probably get some brass from a range like I said above for plinking or the rare mag dump. You folks are a wealth of knowledge. I do appreciate it. |
|
Quoted:
I didn't notice if the OP specified what type of rifle, bolt action, semiautomatic or ? I know it doesn't matter much brass wise but it does case prep wise. Motor Semi-auto - AR15 that I am building with a LaRue barrel, 2 stage trigger, etc. It won't be a $4000.00 tack driver at a bazillion yards but it should do well out to 300. That is, like I said above, if > I < am capable. |
|
OK< so no bolt varmint rifle, but shooting an AR varmint rifle. I would not bother to do the case prep steps of uniforming flash holes or pockets. Only if I got brass that hung up on a decapping pin or fixing primer crimps.
I will still stand by the bullet recommendations, ideally a 55 plastic tipped bullet of good name. 90% of your accuracy potential lies with that thing that flies through the air. A 68 or 69 BTHP will blow less around in the wind. Your rifling twist may dictate which route you prefer. I have 1:7 and 1:8 twist rifles that shoot the 52 bthp match bullets fine. |
|
Quoted:
OK< so no bolt varmint rifle, but shooting an AR varmint rifle. I would not bother to do the case prep steps of uniforming flash holes or pockets. Only if I got brass that hung up on a decapping pin or fixing primer crimps. I will still stand by the bullet recommendations, ideally a 55 plastic tipped bullet of good name. 90% of your accuracy potential lies with that thing that flies through the air. A 68 or 69 BTHP will blow less around in the wind. Your rifling twist may dictate which route you prefer. I have 1:7 and 1:8 twist rifles that shoot the 52 bthp match bullets fine. Mine is an 18" 1:8 mid-length. Most folks have suggested the 68 grain up to 77 grain for this barrel. Once I get going, I will have to get some of those 52 bthp and try them out as well. |
| Most brass will shoot just fine if you pay attention to a few golden rules . Inspect all cases for dents splints ,weird chamber marks ,flattened primers etc dump those that show any signs. Case thickness ,this can vary enormously and as all dies resize to outside dimensions the volume will vary .I think someone has already taken the hard work out of this for 300 BO case selection somewhere? Remove the crimp and deburr flash hole , a 60 o countersink works well for doing both jobs at once . Seperate by head stamp and separate again by thickness of case wall at the mouth , lose those that vary too much . Use a hand primer after sizing as these will indicate distorted bases or primer pockets ,it's boring but you don't get the sensitivity from any other priming system . Ditch those that fail to prime or sit in the shell holder as these will cause problems later . Its the same with case lube ,use your fingers and apply a minimum ,you will feel an even coat not guaranteed by spraying or rolling .Once you have gone through your pile resized and checked for length ,a little too short is OK , too long ,trim them or sling them ! Bullet selection is next , choose one whose length/mass ratio suits your rifling . Buy what you can afford .TMKs are reasonable,very accurate and behave similar to a ballistic tip .Don't disregard military pulls as these are often good bullets lightly crimped and just simply require the sealant washed off , but it doesn't hurt to run through some checks with these like dimensions , damage etc to discard . And last but not least work up your loads ,for really thick cases drop a grain from recommended starting point for the powder/bullet weight selected as this will mean there will be more case neck compression on the bullet and less volume ( there are some good load calculators for various burn rates on the internet ). From a bucket load of once fired brass you will quickly find the most consistent to suit your rifling,bullet and powder choice but by following the above you will achieve the most consistency possible from any number of case manufacturers and you will find that cases with the same thickness regardless of headstamp with identical load will put the same bullet in the same group . LC ,BHA , Win, FC are good in the US ,you may also find S&B ,TZZ (IMI),ME ,Lapua or Norma or if you are lucky RORG from outside . All are capable of punching a primer out of a 12 bore cartridge at 100 yards with consistency from a factory barrel by following the simple rules . |
|
Quoted:
I have been gathering information to reload .223/5.56 for a 300 yard varmint rifle and got to thinking about brass. ... My questions are regarding the safety and specs of the brass and the way it is made. Are there certain brands/manufacturers that one should stay away from? If properly cleaned and sized, how much can using once fired bulk brass affect accuracy? Or is the difference negligible? IMO, at 300 yards maximum, you will be hard pressed to justify paying for anything other than Winchester brass (or LC). You just will really have to struggle to find an accuracy difference. If it were me, I would avoid PMC and Federal (as in, not BUY them). "Bulk brass" just means you bought a lot of it and does not address the issue of quality. If you buy once fired LC or Winchester brass, you did okay. If you want the best, buy Lapua. Case prep tools cannot fix variations in internal case wall thickness. You can spend beau coups money on tools and inordinate amounts of time to uniform necks, flash holes, etc but you cannot touch wall thickness. Safety-wise, no brass case will contain the chamber pressures from firing a 223 cartridge in an unsafe rifle. If your rifle is safe, almost any brass will be adequately safe. |
|
Reloading is about minimizing variables!
Anything you do is a step in the right direction. Sorting brass by headstamp is a minimum to start with, and then keep track of # of times fired. Case prep beyond that like primer pocket crimp removal, trimming to uniform length, deburr flash hole, and uniform primer pockets are all good things. Weight sorting, well that can wait till you get shooting more at longer distances. |
|
Quoted:
Semi-auto - AR15 that I am building with a LaRue barrel, 2 stage trigger, etc. It won't be a $4000.00 tack driver at a bazillion yards but it should do well out to 300. That is, like I said above, if > I < am capable. Quoted:
Quoted:
I didn't notice if the OP specified what type of rifle, bolt action, semiautomatic or ? I know it doesn't matter much brass wise but it does case prep wise. Motor Semi-auto - AR15 that I am building with a LaRue barrel, 2 stage trigger, etc. It won't be a $4000.00 tack driver at a bazillion yards but it should do well out to 300. That is, like I said above, if > I < am capable. The rifle in my avatar photo is an "out of the box" Remington VTR-15. The only upgrade was a trigger. This is my primary groundhog hunting rifle. My brass prep is pretty simple. I use weight matched (to within 1gr) Remington commercial brass. My varmint load uses a Hornady 50gr V-Max at 3400fps. My test group measured just over 5/8"(5 shots at 100 yards). My farthest kill to date is 342 yards. Clay pigeons at 300 yards are kids play. Any size piece of clay pigeon that is visible at 200 is history. If you are building a rifle I would expect nothing less of it. BTW: I just got a 1in8 twist upper during PSA's memorial day sale. It shot my 50gr V-Max load very well although it didn't fully cycle. It shoots Hornady 55gr FMJ's very good as well as 55gr Nosler Ballistic Tips and 65gr Sierra Game Kings. The 65gr Game Kings don't expand violently on groundhog which of course is expected since they are a medium sized game bullet. My son shoots the Hornady 60gr V-Max from his 1 in 7 AR-15. It's great for groundhogs and very accurate. It's a flat base bullet but if your maximum range is around 300 yards that should not have too much of an impact. Motor |
|
I use a Panda action varmint rifle to nail the groundhogs fired on by the .223 guys.
The buggers dive at the sight of a human at 300 yards now. .22-250 AI out to about 400 yards. After that 6 mm rem AI. The extra bullet weight works well out to close to 1,000 yards. |
|
I do believe I have a much better understanding on what I need to look for when choosing brass.
I almost didn't ask the original questions. Thought it would be like choosing an upper or lower. "They're all made in 3 factories and nobody can tell them apart" That is not the case (no pun intended). Thanks again folks! |
|
Quoted:
I do believe I have a much better understanding on what I need to look for when choosing brass. I almost didn't ask the original questions. Thought it would be like choosing an upper or lower. "They're all made in 3 factories and nobody can tell them apart" That is not the case (no pun intended). Thanks again folks! Please post a fallow up after you get it up and running. I took a groundhog with the VTR-15 Friday afternoon at about 175 yards. 
Motor |
Armory Sponsor