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Posted: 4/13/2016 6:07:35 PM EDT
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I started reloading 30-30 recently for my winchester 94 with tubular magazine. I have RCBS dies and a single stage press. When trying to crimp I either get little crimping or the case starts to crush. In order to set the die here is what I did:
With an empty case run up to the top, run die down to almost touching shoulder. Adjust seater to seat bullet to just near the top of the cannelure (i.e. just barely any cannelure showing outside the case). Remove seat and slowly adjust die in until it crimps. With dummy round all the way up in the die, run seat back down until it just touches the bullet. The problem is that when adjusting the die down to crimp I cannot get much of a crimp before the case starts to buckle. I've set the die to a bit before that happens. I loaded a dozen and shot them. Loading 4 in the magazine, the 3rd round and especially the 4th show the bullet being pushed further into the case about 1/8 of an inch. So either I try to crimp more and crush the case or stop short of that and end up with too little crimp. I also tried doing this is two steps. Seat bullet first then readjust and crimp. I cannot get a good enough crimp this way either without crushing the cases. I've considered a factory crimp die but an "old timer" I talked to here said the die puts and aggressive roll on the case and causes them to work harder much faster. I seem to be in a no-win situation. Any suggestions? Here is a pic. Not sure you can see it well, but the two cases on the left are dummies and the far left case is showing a bit of bulge on the shoulder right as it starts to straighten into the body. The other dummy is one that was seated and crimped in one step after the crimp was adjusted to just before the buckling started. It also shows very slight signs of buckling. Both also show a bit of a rippling on the neck. The two on the right are loaded ammo and were crimped in a separate step with the die adjust to the same place as for the dummy round second from left. It's probably hard to see, but there isn't much of a crimp. When fired, the bullet starts to get pushed in further with the rounds in the magazine. Using the two step approach I can more or less keep the cases from buckling but the crimp is weak. 
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First things first.
The Lee Factory Crimp Die is the way to go. I'm sorry but the "old timer" does not know how it even works to judging by his statement. For roll crimping you ABSOLUTELY NEED to have all the brass trimmed exactly the same (well at least say +/-.003" I typically put a casing into the press a raise the ram to the top. I then screw the die seat/crimp die down until it touches the case mouth. Then back it off just a little. Then seat a bullet to at least mid canalure if not a little deeper. Then back off the seat plug and carefully turn the die down until you just barely roll the case mouth into the canalure. This is all the crimp that you need or want. I've never tried it but with modern jacketed bullets if you consider how much neck tension that the 30-30 has I often wonder if the crimp is really even necessary. That BTW: Is just observation not a recommendation. Get yourself the Lee FCD. It's very likely the best thing they ever made. It's simple to adjust and simply works great. The only drawback is it requires you to seat and crimp in 2 separate steps. Motor |
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So you think the two on the right show too much crimp? When loaded in my model 94 (tubular magazine) it's not enough. Bullets start to get pushed in. The last one in the magazine (subjected to the recoil of the 3 previous rounds) has the bullet pushed in 1/8 inch or so passed the cannelure.
I didn't take a picture of the pushed in bullets but will next time I'm at the range. It's a bit of a drive so not easy to just load rounds and test fire. |
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First things first: Are you trimming the res-sized brass? If you are not then that is likely affecting the seat/crimp operation.
Seating and crimping CAN be done, but long-necked cases like .30-30 are more susceptible to buckling, though, truthfully, all cases are to a degree. The best bet is to ignore the 'old-timer's' advice and buy a Lee Facory Crimp Die (FCD); of all the tools tht Lee sells (and I have lots of'em_ the FCD is by far the most useful. As long as you follow directions with it, your ammo will not set back uncer recoil. For the record, I load .30-30 for a Winchester 94, Savage 24V and Savage 340, using the FCD and have NEVER experienc e set-back with the repeaters. |
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Quoted:
First things first: Are you trimming the res-sized brass? If you are not then that is likely affecting the seat/crimp operation. Seating and crimping CAN be done, but long-necked cases like .30-30 are more susceptible to buckling, though, truthfully, all cases are to a degree. The best bet is to ignore the 'old-timer's' advice and buy a Lee Facory Crimp Die (FCD); of all the tools tht Lee sells (and I have lots of'em_ the FCD is by far the most useful. As long as you follow directions with it, your ammo will not set back uncer recoil. For the record, I load .30-30 for a Winchester 94, Savage 24V and Savage 340, using the FCD and have NEVER experienc e set-back with the repeaters. Nearly all my cases are too short. Hodgdon's site says trim to 2.030". My once fired cases are all about 2.025 give or take .003 or .004. I set the die based on one of the longer ones. I guess I'll give the LFCD a try. Or maybe the Redding die. Is one bette than the other? |
 Top round properly crimped with a Lee FCD, bottom round uncrimped. You should trim all cases to the same length, even if their short.  That turns 30-30 loading from hit or miss to easy. Last big run I did. |
| Thanks for the help and feedback, but I'm kind of confused as to why everyone is saying I'm using too much crimp. Crushing the cases would be an obvious indicator and I understand that, but evidence from the field suggests too little crimp due to the bullet setback from recoil. Also, I measured how far I turned the die from when it touches the case mouth to when it's where I set it for the crimp. It's just over 1/4 turn like around 4 o'clock (starting from 12). Does that seem like too much? Based on the gap between the die bottom and top of the case holder it seems slightly more gap than what RCBS shows in the instructions. However, any smaller gap (more turn of the die) and the cases start to crush. How much do other end up turning the die for the crimp? |
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Die adjusting instructions are where you start. Then you adjust for the tolerance in your press, shellholder, dies, brass and bullets. I never seat and crimp in the same die. That and not trimming all of your cases to the same length is your problem. Use your seat/crimp die to seat only, and get a FCD to crimp with. They don't cost much. Trim your cases, use a FC die and no more issues. Another tip, if you double space after each complete sentence like I'm doing, your post will be much easier to read. |
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Quoted:
Probably the reason your "better" loads allowed the bullets to set back is this: you crimped the case so hard that the bullet was squeezed down in diameter too...but the brass case sprung back more than the bullet, leaving it loose in the case. Quoted:
Probably the reason your "better" loads allowed the bullets to set back is this: you crimped the case so hard that the bullet was squeezed down in diameter too...but the brass case sprung back more than the bullet, leaving it loose in the case. Quoted:
Thanks for the help and feedback, but I'm kind of confused as to why everyone is saying I'm using too much crimp. Crushing the cases would be an obvious indicator and I understand that, but evidence from the field suggests too little crimp due to the bullet setback from recoil. Also, I measured how far I turned the die from when it touches the case mouth to when it's where I set it for the crimp. It's just over 1/4 turn like around 4 o'clock (starting from 12). Does that seem like too much? Based on the gap between the die bottom and top of the case holder it seems slightly more gap than what RCBS shows in the instructions. However, any smaller gap (more turn of the die) and the cases start to crush. How much do other end up turning the die for the crimp? There are a few different factors in play. First the .30-30 is a nice cartridge to reload as it has a nice long neck to help with bullet alignment and the good bearing surface along with adequate neck tension goes a long way toward preventing set back of the bullet. The expander ball also makes a difference as if it's a little over size the case won't; hold the bullet as tightly. You also have to keep in mind that brass will snap back a bit when sized one direction or the other, while lead will not (for all practical purposes) So if you're using a crimp die that uses a collet that post sizes the round, too much will result in the bullet getting sized smaller, but the case will snap back a bit and actually reduce the neck tension. ----- My default is to use no crimp at all, unless it is clearly needed. The first step is to try it without any crimp at all, after ensuring you have an expander ball that is properly sized for a.308 bullet. Then I'd try an absolute minimum amount of crimp and see if it's adequate. I start by seating the bullet to the correct OAL with the die backed well off so no crimp is applied, then back the seating stem way off and turn the die in until I can just feel it contact the case mouth.. At that point I will turn it another 1/8th turn. Since reloading dies use a 7/8-14 thread, 1 full turn of the die is .071", and 1/8th turn is approximately .009". If I need more crimp I'll apply it in 1/8" turn increments. However, if you need more crimp, you need to consider that more crimp isn't really a good thing and that there's an underlying issue you need to resolve, whether it's a need for smaller expander ball, or brass that's too thin, or bullets that are undersize. In any event, I've been shooting .30-30 in lever actions (as well as .375 Win, .38-55, .45 Colt and .357 Mag) for decades and I've never had issues with set back using little or no crimp, provided the dies are properly set up and the expander ball in the rife calibers is properly sized. |
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Quoted:\My default is to use no crimp at all, unless it is clearly needed.
The first step is to try it without any crimp at all, after ensuring you have an expander ball that is properly sized for a.308 bullet. Then I'd try an absolute minimum amount of crimp and see if it's adequate. I start by seating the bullet to the correct OAL with the die backed well off so no crimp is applied, then back the seating stem way off and turn the die in until I can just feel it contact the case mouth.. At that point I will turn it another 1/8th turn. Since reloading dies use a 7/8-14 thread, 1 full turn of the die is .071", and 1/8th turn is approximately .009". If I need more crimp I'll apply it in 1/8" turn increments. However, if you need more crimp, you need to consider that more crimp isn't really a good thing and that there's an underlying issue you need to resolve, whether it's a need for smaller expander ball, or brass that's too thin, or bullets that are undersize. In any event, I've been shooting .30-30 in lever actions (as well as .375 Win, .38-55, .45 Colt and .357 Mag) for decades and I've never had issues with set back using little or no crimp, provided the dies are properly set up and the expander ball in the rife calibers is properly sized. That's interesting, but not sure what I can do about the dies. They are what they are. After a bit of searching looks like maybe I can find a replacement expander but wouldn't it be sized the same as what I have? The factory crimp die is probably the way to go. Might be a bit harder on the brass, but for whatever reason I cannot get a solid crimp with the RCBS die. I've also wondered about chamfering the case mouth. That takes a small amount off the inside of the neck right where it would crimp, or maybe I over did it a bit and ended up with more a bevel in the case mouth meaning there isn't as much material to grab the bullet. In other words, the outside crimps but the slightly thinner neck there prevents a good hold. |
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Quoted:
That's interesting, but not sure what I can do about the dies. They are what they are. After a bit of searching looks like maybe I can find a replacement expander but wouldn't it be sized the same as what I have? The factory crimp die is probably the way to go. Might be a bit harder on the brass, but for whatever reason I cannot get a solid crimp with the RCBS die. I've also wondered about chamfering the case mouth. That takes a small amount off the inside of the neck right where it would crimp, or maybe I over did it a bit and ended up with more a bevel in the case mouth meaning there isn't as much material to grab the bullet. In other words, the outside crimps but the slightly thinner neck there prevents a good hold. Quoted:
Quoted:\My default is to use no crimp at all, unless it is clearly needed.
The first step is to try it without any crimp at all, after ensuring you have an expander ball that is properly sized for a.308 bullet. Then I'd try an absolute minimum amount of crimp and see if it's adequate. I start by seating the bullet to the correct OAL with the die backed well off so no crimp is applied, then back the seating stem way off and turn the die in until I can just feel it contact the case mouth.. At that point I will turn it another 1/8th turn. Since reloading dies use a 7/8-14 thread, 1 full turn of the die is .071", and 1/8th turn is approximately .009". If I need more crimp I'll apply it in 1/8" turn increments. However, if you need more crimp, you need to consider that more crimp isn't really a good thing and that there's an underlying issue you need to resolve, whether it's a need for smaller expander ball, or brass that's too thin, or bullets that are undersize. In any event, I've been shooting .30-30 in lever actions (as well as .375 Win, .38-55, .45 Colt and .357 Mag) for decades and I've never had issues with set back using little or no crimp, provided the dies are properly set up and the expander ball in the rife calibers is properly sized. That's interesting, but not sure what I can do about the dies. They are what they are. After a bit of searching looks like maybe I can find a replacement expander but wouldn't it be sized the same as what I have? The factory crimp die is probably the way to go. Might be a bit harder on the brass, but for whatever reason I cannot get a solid crimp with the RCBS die. I've also wondered about chamfering the case mouth. That takes a small amount off the inside of the neck right where it would crimp, or maybe I over did it a bit and ended up with more a bevel in the case mouth meaning there isn't as much material to grab the bullet. In other words, the outside crimps but the slightly thinner neck there prevents a good hold. As for a replacement expander, remember any manufacturing process is subject to tolerances. Certainly all expanders made by the same company for the same caliber will be listed with identical nominal dimensions, but their manufacturing process allows tolerances. Your expander may be out of tolerance. You can also have multiple parts in an assembly where every part falls within an acceptable tolerance but the stackup of tolerances causes a problem to occur. You've had some experienced .30-30 reloaders weigh in, and I don't have enough experience to offer any additional advice other than I think you are not having a process problem but you have a hardware problem. It sounds as if something isn't working correctly with your dies. If this was me, I would disassemble as far as possible, then clean and inspect every part. You might have an "Aha!" moment where you see evidence of a problem. If everything looks good, I'd reassemble and try one more time. If the issue continues, I'd contact the manufacturer. |
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All four cases in your photo look like the shoulder area has collapsed a bit. Compare to Dryflash's rounded shoulders. That's very common when you crimp and seat at the same time. The bullets could be getting sized smaller as it enters the case if you are seating and crimping at the same time. Then they slide around in the cases under recoil.
I'd vote for trying no crimp and only touch the bullet with the seater stem while seating bullets. Don't touch the cases with the body of the seater die. I haven't reloaded 30-30 yet but I am collecting once fired brass for some day. |
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Quoted:
Put a mic on your expander. For jacketed bullets, I think it's supposed to be 0.002" smaller than the bullet dia. It's not uncommon that they're oversized. The expander measured 0.3065". Not sure that 0.0005 would make much difference and I think the chamfer is a more likely culprit in the weak crimp. I'll have to wait to make some new empty cases to test that theory. In the meantime, I have a FCD on order. |
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Quoted: The expander measured 0.3065". Not sure that 0.0005 would make much difference and I think the chamfer is a more likely culprit in the weak crimp. I'll have to wait to make some new empty cases to test that theory. In the meantime, I have a FCD on order. Quoted: Quoted: Put a mic on your expander. For jacketed bullets, I think it's supposed to be 0.002" smaller than the bullet dia. It's not uncommon that they're oversized. The expander measured 0.3065". Not sure that 0.0005 would make much difference and I think the chamfer is a more likely culprit in the weak crimp. I'll have to wait to make some new empty cases to test that theory. In the meantime, I have a FCD on order. I don't believe the chamfer is your issue, but case length variances. The FCD will solve most of that.  Collet fully open.  Study this picture. It shows a correctly adjusted FCD. Collet half way closed. The die instruction are where you start from then adjust until the die looks like this with the case all the way up in the die. Notice the 4 cuts in the collet. You adjust until they are half way closed like in the pic. Then your rounds will look like my previous pic of a crimped round. Tip, get a real locknut and remove the nut that the FCD comes with. Then you adjustment can be locked in for next time. Hornady sells a good one. |
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Quoted:
Thanks for the help and feedback, but I'm kind of confused as to why everyone is saying I'm using too much crimp. Crushing the cases would be an obvious indicator and I understand that, but evidence from the field suggests too little crimp due to the bullet setback from recoil. Also, I measured how far I turned the die from when it touches the case mouth to when it's where I set it for the crimp. It's just over 1/4 turn like around 4 o'clock (starting from 12). Does that seem like too much? Based on the gap between the die bottom and top of the case holder it seems slightly more gap than what RCBS shows in the instructions. However, any smaller gap (more turn of the die) and the cases start to crush. How much do other end up turning the die for the crimp? 1/4 turn will give you close to .020" vertical movement of the die. It takes very little vertical movement to push the case mouth into the crimp groove. Throw in a little case length variance and you get what you have. Any bulge weather visible or not in the case neck is reducing your neck tension. Neck tension is doing most of your bullet holding. The only thing the crimp is for is to keep the bullet from going in (or out depending on the firearm) past the width of the crimp groove. In the 30-30 the recoil is trying to push the bullets into the casing. So you want to roll (if you are using a roll crimp) the mouth into the front edge of the groove. This way the bullet can not move deeper into the case without the case mouth climbing over the edge of the groove. Bending the brass into the void of the groove does not take much force. It does not need to be tight, it only needs to be there. Motor |
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So I got the Lee FCD. Pretty hard to tell by looking but I think it's doing a good crimp. Some test shots will confirm, I hope.
On the left is a factory round. The middle one was done in two steps with the RCBS seat/crimp die. The one on the right is with the LFCD. 
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