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Posted: 8/2/2015 11:12:36 PM EDT
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I have old Lyman dies for my .380, never bothered to upgrade to carbide because I just don't shoot it that much, but I had cause to load a batch since I'm helping a friend teach his wife to shoot, and the .380 is in play.
So I was thinking about the difference between standard steel and carbide when I got a crazy idea! 
I stripped the die to the body, polished the inside with the dremel, cleaned it well with alcohol, then cherried it with the torch and dropped it in a bucket of water. And then I sized a hundred cases sans lube, they came out nice and shiny, just like a carbide. So, did I accomplish anything besides waste some time? Anyone size .380 cases without lube in standard steel dies? They're short and straight, so it's not a tough case to do it with. Seems to be working, but I never actually tried it without lube before hardening the die. What says the hive; Idiot or genius? 
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What do you mean, just like a carbide? And yes, I have done some straight wall pistol in steel before, and the resistance is noticeable. A shot of oner shot clears it up, and its about the only thing that mess is good for anyway... I mean that when you size cases in a carbide die, they come out with a polished sheen to them that you don't get from sizing with lube. After hardening my steel die, the cases that I'm running through without lube have that same polished look, as if they had been sized in a carbide die. |
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It was my understanding that Dies are already hardened. I think in the 9x17 you likely don't NEED carbide. You are only putting about .5" of brass into the die, so their isn't much there to stick. I don't think dies are hardened, I've had them scratch inside , but I agree that there is not much brass in the die with the little case to stick. Probably didn't accomplish anything, but it is a nice smooth size with no lube. |
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Without knowing the exact metal what you did may have had hardy any effect on the actual hardness. Your lucky the die didn't warp out of round and stay that way.
That shinyness you see is from the burnished effect sizing without lube creates. Sooner or later, probably sooner, you will get brass sticking inside the die from gaulding and it will need to be polished out or chemically removed. This happens occasionally even with carbide. I suggest you lube. Like the other guy said just a shot of spray lube would do just fine and avoid headaches. Motor |
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I don't think dies are hardened, I've had them scratch inside , but I agree that there is not much brass in the die with the little case to stick. Probably didn't accomplish anything, but it is a nice smooth size with no lube. Quoted:
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It was my understanding that Dies are already hardened. I think in the 9x17 you likely don't NEED carbide. You are only putting about .5" of brass into the die, so their isn't much there to stick. I don't think dies are hardened, I've had them scratch inside , but I agree that there is not much brass in the die with the little case to stick. Probably didn't accomplish anything, but it is a nice smooth size with no lube. LOL, you ever tried to use a file on one? Thought not. As for the scratch in the other, 50 to 1 it was brass galled on the inside of it,, unless you are using diamond lap. |
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LOL, you ever tried to use a file on one? Thought not. As for the scratch in the other, 50 to 1 it was brass galled on the inside of it,, unless you are using diamond lap. Quoted:
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It was my understanding that Dies are already hardened. I think in the 9x17 you likely don't NEED carbide. You are only putting about .5" of brass into the die, so their isn't much there to stick. I don't think dies are hardened, I've had them scratch inside , but I agree that there is not much brass in the die with the little case to stick. Probably didn't accomplish anything, but it is a nice smooth size with no lube. LOL, you ever tried to use a file on one? Thought not. As for the scratch in the other, 50 to 1 it was brass galled on the inside of it,, unless you are using diamond lap. You and I are using different dies. My experience is you can booger them up at the drop of a hat. I've damaged dies with pliers, vices, etc over the last 30 years. None of them seemed very hard. |
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1) die was already hardened
2) hardening alone won't equal carbide's lubricity and hardness 3) always use a lube or spray - even with carbide; I use a very small amount of OneShot on pistol cases & leave it in place, finally: 4) You CAN essentially "convert" a steel die into a "carbide die" by professionally having it coated in Titanium Nitride (TiN) - and Hornady has been selling these dies INSTEAD of carbide for pistol reloading for years. Their line is called "New Dimension pistol dies." OP: the company C&H tool and reloading will coat your old die with TiN. Hornady's New Dimension pistol die works just like carbide. |
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I have Pacific brand (now Hornady) durochrome dies and they still require lubing. If you don't think so just try using them without it.
Yes sizing dies are hardened but they are not as hard as you may think. Carbide is used for its self lubrication or maybe a better way of describing it is its lack of needing lubrication. The fact that it is very hard is really just a side note. A die that sizes BRASS only needs to so hard and so strong. I've polished and even cut a steel die or 2 and while being hard they are not too hard to machine with carbide tooling. Motor |
| Highly dependent on die material. Perfectly possible you didn't do anything at all. Also very possible you ruined what heat treat was there, if there was one. Also possible that you caused some permanent deformation in the die, but this is a little less likely. Highly improbable you improved the die in any way. |
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Highly dependent on die material. Perfectly possible you didn't do anything at all. Also very possible you ruined what heat treat was there, if there was one. Also possible that you caused some permanent deformation in the die, but this is a little less likely. Highly improbable you improved the die in any way. I concur. If I were doing that experiment, I would have dropped the cherry red die into a can of used motor oil. Probably still ruined, but at least a carburized ruined die. 
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Without knowing the exact metal what you did may have had hardy any effect on the actual hardness. Your lucky the die didn't warp out of round and stay that way. That shinyness you see is from the burnished effect sizing without lube creates. Sooner or later, probably sooner, you will get brass sticking inside the die from gaulding and it will need to be polished out or chemically removed. This happens occasionally even with carbide. I suggest you lube. Like the other guy said just a shot of spray lube would do just fine and avoid headaches. Motor This ... sooner or later it will "seize". |
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You and I are using different dies. My experience is you can booger them up at the drop of a hat. I've damaged dies with pliers, vices, etc over the last 30 years. None of them seemed very hard. Quoted:
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It was my understanding that Dies are already hardened. I think in the 9x17 you likely don't NEED carbide. You are only putting about .5" of brass into the die, so their isn't much there to stick. I don't think dies are hardened, I've had them scratch inside , but I agree that there is not much brass in the die with the little case to stick. Probably didn't accomplish anything, but it is a nice smooth size with no lube. LOL, you ever tried to use a file on one? Thought not. As for the scratch in the other, 50 to 1 it was brass galled on the inside of it,, unless you are using diamond lap. You and I are using different dies. My experience is you can booger them up at the drop of a hat. I've damaged dies with pliers, vices, etc over the last 30 years. None of them seemed very hard. Then you need to buy better dies. I have every brand made, even Herters and have never scratched, boogered, or deformed any in 55 years of reloading. Are you using a hammer? |
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I think you are being a little harsh. My first die set was a RCBS steel (not carbide) 38/357 pistol die set. This or a rifle set is what was offered with the supreme kit at the time.
I scratched the sizing die a couple times using well lubed nickel cases. I've never tested one with a hardness tester but as I stated earlier I have done some machining on a few. I don't even want to guess a number but a hardened high speed steel lathe tool is 65 Rockwell C. A steel sizing die is not as hard. They are pretty hard. Anything that a standard file won't cut is hard and I'm sure some brands are not as hard as others but they are not scratch proof. Motor |
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OP, I lube EVERYTHING, even with carbide dies. It substantially reduces sizing effort with carbide dies, and makes it even easier to go through a bunch of brass. Since I use a lanolin/alcohol lube that I spray on, I wind up with only a little lube to remove later.
I don't think you hurt your dies, but you didn't make them "just like carbide." .380 cases are frequently very easy to size - they're not a high pressure round, so cases aren't going to need much sizing anyway. |
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From what I have seen with steel size dies, is that they are typically case-hardened, and not thru hardened.
I am no metallurgist, so I cannot comment on what you did. However, I do want to ask, did you polish the die after you heated & quenched it? Or did you just use it as is? I have heard of people putting a mirror polish on a steel size die, and that helps reduce the friction / force needed to size the brass. I'm wondering if you were able to heat treat a die hard enough, and polish it, how that would react to sizing without lube. |
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It's probably just a small waste of time that neither helped nor hurt the dies.
But I did it for grins on a whim just to see what the effect would be, it's an old set of dies I rarely use, if I screwed it up, it would give me an excuse to upgrade to a carbide. I had no expectations, and certainly didn't think it would make them like carbide,( see thread title) but I have surface hardened a lot of steel over the years, sometimes inadvertently, so I thought it would be an interesting experiment. The result is that 100 + cases have come out clean and burnished with zero lube. Would they have done that if I had merely polished the die instead of polishing, heating and quenching? Probably; .380 is a low resistance case. And if one finally does "seize", the Lymans are very open on the top and the case can easily be knocked out with a dowel. The die is working, is not ruined, and may be slightly improved, or not. My ammo is getting loaded and I entertained myself. 
Certainly are a wide variety of interesting opinions here. |
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A huge advantage carbide insert dies have is the small contact area with the brass.
A solid carbide rifle die still requires lubrication since the contact area is so large. They are mostly used in bulk production to limit die damage over many thousands of round. It is not just hardness but also surface finish. And the ability to maintain that finish over longer terms. |
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Carbide dies work because the static friction between TC and brass is lower than steel and brass.
OP, your die was most likely hardened to begin with. If the steel is xx45 or better you may have gotten 60+ RC out of it, but you may have also warped the die, or caused it to become brittle in an area that needed ductility. Compared to the cost of reloading components, dies are cheap. Buy the best you can. |
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