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Low budget Annealing (Page 3 of 3)
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Originally Posted By Blowout: I always blame that on the guy next to me with the muzzle brake.  Wait, was that you??  I've thought about a hotter flame source (like MAPP gas), but think it would most likely heat up the machine components fast in the annealer I made and expect it would require some heat shielding. For me, making an annealer was a low budget approach to address the number of cases I do at one time (250 - 1000 pieces). It was half the price of buying a machine off the shelf and it has more features. |
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Late to this topic, but I've been thinking about annealing my 6.5 and 7mm Mag cases lately. I don't shoot that often so I don't need to do it often enough to warrant buying a machine. 1) It was mentioned that you don't clean out the Tempilaq from inside the case necks, but I have to believe that there is some residue that might affect neck tension in the context of precision loading. Any reasearch on that? [ETA] Can you anneal dirty cases? Seems like that would solve the problem because then you can wet tumble after annealing. 2) Has there been any research on whether applying Tempilaq to the outside of the case neck is less accurate? 3) How long does an average bottle last, ie about how many cases assuming you put a dot on every single case? 4) Any experience annealing nickle-plated brass? I have about 200 cases for my 7mag. Some people say they don't do it, others say it works just the same as regular brass. |
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Originally Posted By Zhukov: Late to this topic, but I've been thinking about annealing my 6.5 and 7mm Mag cases lately. I don't shoot that often so I don't need to do it often enough to warrant buying a machine. 1) It was mentioned that you don't clean out the Tempilaq from inside the case necks, but I have to believe that there is some residue that might affect neck tension in the context of precision loading. Any reasearch on that? [ETA] Can you anneal dirty cases? Seems like that would solve the problem because then you can wet tumble after annealing. 2) Has there been any research on whether applying Tempilaq to the outside of the case neck is less accurate? 3) How long does an average bottle last, ie about how many cases assuming you put a dot on every single case? ETA Never tried it, don't see a reason why not. 2) We have a poster that does that, and he shoots precision with a 30 cal Blaster. Don't recall the screen name. Red truck avatar from AK..... 3) I'm on my second bottle, thread started in 2015. I did have to buy some thinner. Keep the lid on tight. Got a favor to ask, page 1 top of page you have a thread that hasn't been updated in many years. Could you make it look like we care with a current date? edit, just saw that poster name I couldn't remember, AKSnowRider, the post just before yours. |
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Originally Posted By Zhukov: Late to this topic, but I've been thinking about annealing my 6.5 and 7mm Mag cases lately. I don't shoot that often so I don't need to do it often enough to warrant buying a machine. 1) It was mentioned that you don't clean out the Tempilaq from inside the case necks, but I have to believe that there is some residue that might affect neck tension in the context of precision loading. Any reasearch on that? [ETA] Can you anneal dirty cases? Seems like that would solve the problem because then you can wet tumble after annealing. 2) Has there been any research on whether applying Tempilaq to the outside of the case neck is less accurate? 3) How long does an average bottle last, ie about how many cases assuming you put a dot on every single case? 4) Any experience annealing nickle-plated brass? I have about 200 cases for my 7mag. Some people say they don't do it, others say it works just the same as regular brass. Number 1 is the reason I do number 2...I cannot prove that the residue changes anything, but I do feel that my seating pressure when seating bullets is more consistent from case to case over the whole lot of cases...My way of doing my long range hunting ammo is different..much different then the way most do things..I feel it adds to the accuracy of my loads...it is not a night and day difference, it is a subtle difference that appears to help..I deprime, I run thru a FART, then dry..once dry I put a ring of tempilaq on the neck and shoulder on the outside of the case, I anneal with a hotter mapp gas torch(18k btu), I then do my normal sizing/cutting ready to load as most people do, I then anneal a second time and use a mandrel die to finish size the neck before final cleaning followed by priming/charging/ bullet seating...Its a lot of work, but I feel the neck tension consistency has been worth it... I went thru 2 bottles of tempilaq and one thinner in roughly 1000 rounds of rifle brass(mostly double annealing)...I run mine very very thinned out... I have done a few nickel cases, it is slightly different how it looks when annealing, but the results have been the same as the brass stuff..looks horrible when done, but run it thru a fart with pins and it will look original when done unless you look real close at the neck mouth... |
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@AKSnowRider, I believe that applying Tempilaq to the outside of the case will give inaccurate indications. If it’s on the inside, the Tempilaq is heated by the brass, reflecting the temperature of the brass. However if it’s on the outside, it MAY reflect the flame’s temperature instead. This would lead to insufficient heating of the brass and less than effective annealing. Marcal, Tempilaq’s maker, provides this resource for reading Tempilaq’s indication of change. But there’s nothing on their site about whether or not being IN the heating source makes a difference. So I used their “contact us” link and asked that specifically: should Tempilaq be applied where it will be in a torch flame, or should it be on the opposite side of the item being heated? I’ll post what I hear from them. In the meantime, I have a fair-sized pile of brass in my “convert to Blackout” bin. My process is to chop the cases, then anneal before forming. I’m not moving forward with this stuff at the moment for a number of reasons, but this is one of them... Side note: I have an electric heat gun that has two settings: 700F and 1500F. I wonder if the high setting would be effective in annealing brass... Of course, since it’s a Harbor Freight device with a plastic case, it may not tolerate putting out 1500F air for a long period of time. Still, I may have to give it a shot sometime. |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter: @AKSnowRider, I believe that applying Tempilaq to the outside of the case will give inaccurate indications. If it’s on the inside, the Tempilaq is heated by the brass, reflecting the temperature of the brass. However if it’s on the outside, it MAY reflect the flame’s temperature instead. This would lead to insufficient heating of the brass and less than effective annealing. Marcal, Tempilaq’s maker, provides this resource for reading Tempilaq’s indication of change. But there’s nothing on their site about whether or not being IN the heating source makes a difference. So I used their “contact us” link and asked that specifically: should Tempilaq be applied where it will be in a torch flame, or should it be on the opposite side of the item being heated? I’ll post what I hear from them. In the meantime, I have a fair-sized pile of brass in my “convert to Blackout” bin. My process is to chop the cases, then anneal before forming. I’m not moving forward with this stuff at the moment for a number of reasons, but this is one of them... Side note: I have an electric heat gun that has two settings: 700F and 1500F. I wonder if the high setting would be effective in annealing brass... Of course, since it’s a Harbor Freight device with a plastic case, it may not tolerate putting out 1500F air for a long period of time. Still, I may have to give it a shot sometime. Yep, was my main concern when I first decided to try it, so the first 3 batches got painted inside and out and I filmed them while heating, as far as I can tell, both melted at the same exact time..I think torch BTU matters here... Heat wise, from what I know fabricating things, the longer it takes to bring something to annealing temp, the worse the results will be, I have read this since in a article that talks about annealing...the quicker the brass rises in temp, the more consistent the anneal will be.. Again, I started out with the normal good old propane torch before moving to the mapp gas torch, and I feel the results improved going with the hotter torch...Problem is, its also easier to overtime the brass, so a person has to have their shit together when doing it...I even considered using a acetylene torch, but I think it would raise the brass temp so fast I could not react quick enough... |
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I ran a tempilac line down the whole length of brass on the outside as a test. I annealed the case as I would normally do. The tempilac only changed black where the flame was applied. Personally I wouldnt want to speed up the process with Mapp gas. But to each their own. I have watched the videos of the annealing machines and th ones I have seen use propane and the timing wheel seems to keep the brass in the flame approximately 4 seconds. YMMV. And once again, thanks Dryflash for the how to. |
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Originally Posted By Emt1581: Tempilaq... once green turns to black it's good? Can I shoulder, trim, and seat with that black smudge or does it need another ride in the tumbler? Thanks There is a little black residue left over you will see once case is not turning. I don't bother with it, if it bothers you take a bore cleaning brush and run it through the neck to remove the black smudge. Next thing I do is size the case or form the shoulder if doing 300 blk. Then after sizing, it's time to trim if needed. |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3: Tempilaq turns transparent when it melts which indicated the temp you wanted has been reached. As viewed when case is turning. There is a little black residue left over you will see once case is not turning. I don't bother with it, if it bothers you take a bore cleaning brush and run it through the neck to remove the black smudge. Next thing I do is size the case or form the shoulder if doing 300 blk. Then after sizing, it's time to trim if needed. Not sure if I should post a pic but I dabbed on the outside of the mouth. Brass has a rainbow ring about a half inch down the case wall and the tempilaq is blackened. Good to go (shoulder) or did I do something wrong? Thanks |
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Yes post the pic. No need to put Tempilaq on the outside of the case. I put a drop on the inside of the case, just like in my pics. Answer above, I didn't know you were applying on the outside of the case. If you do that, I would wet tumble to remove. |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3: Yes post the pic. No need to put Tempilaq on the outside of the case. I put a drop on the inside of the case, just like in my pics. Answer above, I didn't know you were applying on the outside of the case. If you do that, I would wet tumble to remove. Ok, another dip in the Nufinish/walnut whirlpool it is!!  Thanks! |
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Hard to tell from the pic the color of the case with Tempilaq on the outside of the case. First case on the left does look over heated slightly. Hard to tell on the rest, but seem ok. So your forming 300 blk then? |
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Originally Posted By Emt1581: Threw it in the tumbler for a couple hours and it came out about 90% better. I can still see a shadow of the black smudges but it's real faint. Next up is the shouldering. Do you have a case gauge or headspace gauge to help set your sizing die? I like a light coat of Imperial lube when forming cases.  Annealed cases.  Forming the shoulder. 2 cases on edge of tray, left one is ruined due to no lube inside the case mouth because I forgot. The rest came out fine with a little lube applied inside the case mouth and on the outside of the case body. Q tip for inside lubing. |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3: Forming the shoulder. Do you have a case gauge or headspace gauge to help set your sizing die? I like a light coat of Imperial lube when forming cases. https://i.imgur.com/7SSoVovl.jpg Annealed cases. https://i.imgur.com/mEiYvtIl.jpg Forming the shoulder. 2 cases on edge of tray, left one is ruined due to no lube inside the case mouth because I forgot. The rest came out fine with a little lube applied inside the case mouth and on the outside of the case body. Q tip for inside lubing. I don't...forgot to pick up a case gauge.  I do have Imperial lube though. Thanks for the pic. |
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Originally Posted By Emt1581: I don't...forgot to pick up a case gauge. I do have Imperial lube though. Thanks for the pic. Keep lowering die 1/16 and try again. Repeat until case chambers and ejects easily. Case gauge just gets you there much faster. |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3: The old school way was to set your die, size a case, wipe off lube, and try to chamber and extract it. Mortar it out if necessary. Keep lowering die 1/16 and try again. Repeat until case chambers and ejects easily. Case gauge just gets you there much faster. Mortar it out, meaning slam the buttstock on the ground to get the action open? But good tip. I can give it a try in the absence of the gauge. Thanks! |
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Originally Posted By Emt1581: Mortar it out, meaning slam the buttstock on the ground as your other hand holds the charging handle to the rear to get the action open? Yes, never hammer on a charging handle, you will break it. If a telescoping stock, run stock all the way in first to keep from breaking stock. Normally once or twice does the trick, key is to not jam a case into the chamber. I like to drop the case in the chamber, if it looks good hit the bolt release. Talking about a sized case. But good tip. I can give it a try in the absence of the gauge. Thanks! |
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Originally Posted By kwg020: I don't anneal many cases. 3rd and 4th fired cases go into my reserve stash. I reload them for "the revolution" and they go into storage. If they get shot they will simply be tossed. But, I have found that with .223 brass; if I use a hot torch with a full propane tank, I can get the neck and shoulder to change colors before the brass gets too hot for me to hold with a bare fingers. By the time the heat gets down to the base where I'm holding the brass, the necks and shoulders have changed colors to resemble new military brass. They get dropped into a metal coffee can until they cool without water. kwg This is what an old timer taught me. Hold the case near the case head and rotate with fingers while heating the mouth/neck with a torch until too hot to hold on to. But then to drop the cases in a pan of water to cool. I also do not anneal as yet because 5.56 brass is plentiful and cheap and I don't shoot others enough to require annealing, well other than pistol brass. Thinking of a blk or ham'r in the near future and this info will come in handy for case sizing. |
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Originally Posted By jos51700: Drop your hot cases into something else. That metal pan can pull heat out of the material faster than air and you risk creating hard spots. The faster the heat gets pulled the sooner you can handle them again. There is no risk of hard spots, regardless of cooling rate. |
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Originally Posted By jos51700: I realize that this thread has origins of 7 years old, but... Drop your hot cases into something else. That metal pan can pull heat out of the material faster than air and you risk creating hard spots. Especially if that pan is aluminum. |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3: So now you know everything I know.  You're a funny guy ... I know enough to know I can follow your method ... especially if I get a hands-on demo in a couple weeks. |
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Originally Posted By Tophatman: The trick is to heat the neck just to the point where the grain structure becomes sufficiently large enough to give the case a springy property, leaving the body changed but little, and the head of the case virtually unchanged. Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft I'm sorry but this first bit is not correct. Annealing brass is done to reduce/eliminate the springiness, not to make the brass more springy. Annealing makes the brass softer (easier to dimple), less stiff (less force to bend), more ductile (able to stretch without breaking). Cold working makes brass harder, more stiff, less ductile. Cold working materials, including cartridge brass, increases their stiffness, increases their hardness and increase their strength but it reduces "strain to failure" (how much they can stretch before breaking). Taken to an extreme, this is commonly referred to as becoming more brittle. The second part is also incorrect, sort of. A couple hundred degrees below 950 is 750 - the temperature people are using to anneal their brass. It does not ruin the brass and the brass is not "too soft". Pfft!, I just realized this is a zombie thread. |
Low budget Annealing (Page 3 of 3)
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