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Posted: 1/5/2015 2:30:56 AM EDT
| price being no object in this case, what's the most accurate powder dispenser? |
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Prometheus, give Brand Cole a call if he's still making these. Had not heard of this before...I guess when I said "price being no object" I hadn't anticipated $1100+. Interesting review at http://www.6mmbr.com/prometheus.html, but now I'm leaning toward a RCBS Chargemaster. Anyone have any significant problems with one? |
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If you mean only the electronic dispensers skip my post;
I don't own an electronic dispenser but for years they were hacking the software to fix some issues. I don't know if it's still needed or not. To answer your question I guess I'd want to know how much ammo you want to do in a session. You already said extruded powder so that helps. I use a RCBS thrower with the baffle installed. It's just ok. I throw about .2 light and trickle up. It's a bit tedious but lots faster than when I started using a plastic cup and a plastic spoon and a RCBS 5-0-5. [maddening  ]
For a box or 2 of accuracy loads you can get by with any brand thrower, scale and trickler. For reputation I would say it's Harrels, Redding, RCBS/Hornady, Lee. Although the Lee actually does some things better due to it's design. For big volume AR loading I throw ball powder in a dillon and monitor the throws periodically with a scale. It's not worth it to go nuts on some loading. My precision bolt guns I will weigh them all. |
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Redding BR-3 if you want the best reasonably priced powder measure.
Harrell's powder measure if you want the best. I have one of Harrell's and Redding's BR-30. The BR-30 will not throw enough powder to work with anything larger than .308. You can set it up to throw half charges and throw twice, but it's designed to throw 30+/- grain charges common to PPC and BR cases, thus the name. It works great for .223. RCBS's Uniflow is the worse measure I've ever owned, it works fine with ball powders as is, or any stick powder provided you throw low and trickle each charge up. It really chokes on extruded grain powders. |
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I've used a Redding BR-3 for over a decade now and it's the best I've owned in terms of metering long grain extruded powders.
I have owned Ohaus and RCBS measures and I currently use my BR-3 as well as several Dillon measures and a Hornady lock and load measure. The Hornady lock and load measure has been impressive so far, using the add on vernier measure inserts as well as the optional small pistol rotor. They are a bear to thoroughly degrease, and then you need to coat the bare metal with neutral car wax to prevent rust, but with the appropriate drum they seem, and with the vernier inserts, mine seems to be dropping charges as accurately as my BR-3, I just don't have nearly as much experience with it yet. In general, the smaller the hole in the drum where the powder enters, the more accurate the measure will be as the area being cut and disturbed is much smaller. In that regard using the smallest diameter hole in the drum you can use is preferred, and that's why some measures come with both rifle (large) and pistol (smaller) drums. That's where the BR-3 generally shines as the tolerances are quite tight and the cutting edges are sharp, but also the hole in the drum is also smaller than with many measures that are designed to accommodate very large magnum charges. Dillon measures use charge bars that come in extra small, small, large and magnum sizes which helps improve their accuracy, but they are still not up to the BR-3 standard. |
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Quoted:
In general, the smaller the hole in the drum where the powder enters, the more accurate the measure will be as the area being cut and disturbed is much smaller. In that regard using the smallest diameter hole in the drum you can use is preferred, and that's why some measures come with both rifle (large) and pistol (smaller) drums. This was my observation with the Hornady PM as well. I struggled with using the rifle rotor for the .223/5.56 - too large a bore and difficult to get dialed in. The powder well is too wide and too shallow to get good drops with the rifle rotor. The pistol rotor was too small and wouldn't drop a heavy enough drop. So I bored out a pistol rotor to .5" bore and turned down a rifle piston to fit. It works nicely for mid- range loads. |
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Quoted: Had not heard of this before...I guess when I said "price being no object" I hadn't anticipated $1100+. Interesting review at http://www.6mmbr.com/prometheus.html, but now I'm leaning toward a RCBS Chargemaster. Anyone have any significant problems with one? Quoted: Quoted: Prometheus, give Brand Cole a call if he's still making these. Had not heard of this before...I guess when I said "price being no object" I hadn't anticipated $1100+. Interesting review at http://www.6mmbr.com/prometheus.html, but now I'm leaning toward a RCBS Chargemaster. Anyone have any significant problems with one? My Chargemaster has been running great for the past 3 years. No major issues.
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My Chargemaster has been running great for the past 3 years. No major issues. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Prometheus, give Brand Cole a call if he's still making these. Had not heard of this before...I guess when I said "price being no object" I hadn't anticipated $1100+. Interesting review at http://www.6mmbr.com/prometheus.html, but now I'm leaning toward a RCBS Chargemaster. Anyone have any significant problems with one? My Chargemaster has been running great for the past 3 years. No major issues. +1 on the chargemaster While some do.... I have no complaints with my Chargemaster dispense/scale combo. Scale gets tested against weights regularly and is spot on. Only thing I need to be careful of is dry air-static in the house in the winter when the furnace is running a lot .... dryer sheet rub down and cotton - non poly cloths when loading and you are gtg. (or making sure the humidifier on the furnace is working good ...lol) If you are full of static, the scale will jump a little when you approach pan with your finger. |
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Quoted:
If you mean only the electronic dispensers skip my post; I don't own an electronic dispenser but for years they were hacking the software to fix some issues. I don't know if it's still needed or not. To answer your question I guess I'd want to know how much ammo you want to do in a session. You already said extruded powder so that helps. I use a RCBS thrower with the baffle installed. It's just ok. I throw about .2 light and trickle up. It's a bit tedious but lots faster than when I started using a plastic cup and a plastic spoon and a RCBS 5-0-5. [maddening ]
For a box or 2 of accuracy loads you can get by with any brand thrower, scale and trickler. For reputation I would say it's Harrels, Redding, RCBS/Hornady, Lee. Although the Lee actually does some things better due to it's design. For big volume AR loading I throw ball powder in a dillon and monitor the throws periodically with a scale. It's not worth it to go nuts on some loading. My precision bolt guns I will weigh them all. I'm still open to all options, but leaning toward electronic at the moment. 3 months ago I started shooting monthly local precision bolt action matches with a borrowed Rem 700, which I recently had to give back....so now I'm going to compete with my LaRue Tactical OBR, chambered in .308. Typically we shoot about 70 rounds in a match, so that's about how much I'd be reloading in one session. The club also does monthly practice sessions, so maybe a total of 140 rounds / month? I've been reloading pistol on a Dillon XL 650 for almost 2 years now with great success, but just did my first caliber conversion to .308 this past week. The powder throws I was getting on the 650's large powder bar with IMR XBR 8208 for the .308 were WILDLY inconsistent, as much as 5 grain variation. I gave up trying to go progressive all the way through and fell back to resizing and priming on the press, and then removing the brass. The powder was then manually weighed & trickled before returning to the 650 for seating and crimping. The hand weighing was a chore. I don't know if possibly I set up the large powder bar incorrectly on the 650, or if it needs further adjustment, but at this point I figured I'd just move on...with the addition of a more accurate thrower of some sort. |
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IMR-8208 XBR is a short cut extruded, it should measure good through a polished/tuned Dillon PM. Also settle the powder by tapping the powder hopper with your finger. Cycle and dump 5 or 6 charges to complete "settling". Every stroke of the press handle should be the same speed/force every time. With all stations of the press full, then adjust PM. Adjust to your desired charge. What you will have to do is take case that just got powder off the press and weigh/adjust the charge and then return it to press so it can finish the cycle. Do the same on the next case until PM is adjusted. Takes me about 6 cases on my SDB or 550. (same PM) Don't give up on IMR-8208 XBR, you can make it work with good technique.
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Quoted:
I'm still open to all options, but leaning toward electronic at the moment. 3 months ago I started shooting monthly local precision bolt action matches with a borrowed Rem 700, which I recently had to give back....so now I'm going to compete with my LaRue Tactical OBR, chambered in .308. Typically we shoot about 70 rounds in a match, so that's about how much I'd be reloading in one session. The club also does monthly practice sessions, so maybe a total of 140 rounds / month? I've been reloading pistol on a Dillon XL 650 for almost 2 years now with great success, but just did my first caliber conversion to .308 this past week. The powder throws I was getting on the 650's large powder bar with IMR XBR 8208 for the .308 were WILDLY inconsistent, as much as 5 grain variation. I gave up trying to go progressive all the way through and fell back to resizing and priming on the press, and then removing the brass. The powder was then manually weighed & trickled before returning to the 650 for seating and crimping. The hand weighing was a chore. I don't know if possibly I set up the large powder bar incorrectly on the 650, or if it needs further adjustment, but at this point I figured I'd just move on...with the addition of a more accurate thrower of some sort. Quoted:
Quoted:
If you mean only the electronic dispensers skip my post; I don't own an electronic dispenser but for years they were hacking the software to fix some issues. I don't know if it's still needed or not. To answer your question I guess I'd want to know how much ammo you want to do in a session. You already said extruded powder so that helps. I use a RCBS thrower with the baffle installed. It's just ok. I throw about .2 light and trickle up. It's a bit tedious but lots faster than when I started using a plastic cup and a plastic spoon and a RCBS 5-0-5. [maddening ]
For a box or 2 of accuracy loads you can get by with any brand thrower, scale and trickler. For reputation I would say it's Harrels, Redding, RCBS/Hornady, Lee. Although the Lee actually does some things better due to it's design. For big volume AR loading I throw ball powder in a dillon and monitor the throws periodically with a scale. It's not worth it to go nuts on some loading. My precision bolt guns I will weigh them all. I'm still open to all options, but leaning toward electronic at the moment. 3 months ago I started shooting monthly local precision bolt action matches with a borrowed Rem 700, which I recently had to give back....so now I'm going to compete with my LaRue Tactical OBR, chambered in .308. Typically we shoot about 70 rounds in a match, so that's about how much I'd be reloading in one session. The club also does monthly practice sessions, so maybe a total of 140 rounds / month? I've been reloading pistol on a Dillon XL 650 for almost 2 years now with great success, but just did my first caliber conversion to .308 this past week. The powder throws I was getting on the 650's large powder bar with IMR XBR 8208 for the .308 were WILDLY inconsistent, as much as 5 grain variation. I gave up trying to go progressive all the way through and fell back to resizing and priming on the press, and then removing the brass. The powder was then manually weighed & trickled before returning to the 650 for seating and crimping. The hand weighing was a chore. I don't know if possibly I set up the large powder bar incorrectly on the 650, or if it needs further adjustment, but at this point I figured I'd just move on...with the addition of a more accurate thrower of some sort. Honestly for accuracy rounds and at a max of 140 rounds/month I would be throwing loads low .2 or so grains and trickling up. That's a pretty low volume reloading and can be done easily on a single stage. Anything loaded for accuracy shouldn't be done solely by a powder throw. No powder throwers that I know of will throw extruded powder well at all. Regardless of price. Throw low and trickle especially for accuracy rounds. |
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8208XBR has been a very consistent powder for me when using any of my Dillon machines. A 5 grain variation would indicate to me something isn't assembled correctly or something is being overlooked in technique. Are you sure the bell crank cube is there or attached properly? Do you have the large powder bar in? Is the failsafe rod is inserted from the large plate into the small plate? Are you working the press smoothly? Is the powder bar moving fully back and forth? If all else fails, call Dillon!  XBR should be metering better than that in your measure. |
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This was my observation with the Hornady PM as well. I struggled with using the rifle rotor for the .223/5.56 - too large a bore and difficult to get dialed in. The powder well is too wide and too shallow to get good drops with the rifle rotor. The pistol rotor was too small and wouldn't drop a heavy enough drop. So I bored out a pistol rotor to .5" bore and turned down a rifle piston to fit. It works nicely for mid- range loads. Quoted:
Quoted:
In general, the smaller the hole in the drum where the powder enters, the more accurate the measure will be as the area being cut and disturbed is much smaller. In that regard using the smallest diameter hole in the drum you can use is preferred, and that's why some measures come with both rifle (large) and pistol (smaller) drums. This was my observation with the Hornady PM as well. I struggled with using the rifle rotor for the .223/5.56 - too large a bore and difficult to get dialed in. The powder well is too wide and too shallow to get good drops with the rifle rotor. The pistol rotor was too small and wouldn't drop a heavy enough drop. So I bored out a pistol rotor to .5" bore and turned down a rifle piston to fit. It works nicely for mid- range loads. The pistol rotor has been working well for pistol rounds and .22 Hornet rifle rounds, and I have not yet tried it with .223 rounds. I get very good results with my Dillon measures with a standard charge bar loading .223 with ball powders, but I suspect if I go with an extruded powder I'll either use my BR-3 or follow your example and more out a pistol rotor for the Hornady measure. |
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The rather insane 265 grain maximum capacity was my major reservation in buying it initially, as it is achieved by an overly large diameter hole in the rotor. The pistol rotor has been working well for pistol rounds and .22 Hornet rifle rounds, and I have not yet tried it with .223 rounds. I get very good results with my Dillon measures with a standard charge bar loading .223 with ball powders, but I suspect if I go with an extruded powder I'll either use my BR-3 or follow your example and more out a pistol rotor for the Hornady measure. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
In general, the smaller the hole in the drum where the powder enters, the more accurate the measure will be as the area being cut and disturbed is much smaller. In that regard using the smallest diameter hole in the drum you can use is preferred, and that's why some measures come with both rifle (large) and pistol (smaller) drums. This was my observation with the Hornady PM as well. I struggled with using the rifle rotor for the .223/5.56 - too large a bore and difficult to get dialed in. The powder well is too wide and too shallow to get good drops with the rifle rotor. The pistol rotor was too small and wouldn't drop a heavy enough drop. So I bored out a pistol rotor to .5" bore and turned down a rifle piston to fit. It works nicely for mid- range loads. The pistol rotor has been working well for pistol rounds and .22 Hornet rifle rounds, and I have not yet tried it with .223 rounds. I get very good results with my Dillon measures with a standard charge bar loading .223 with ball powders, but I suspect if I go with an extruded powder I'll either use my BR-3 or follow your example and more out a pistol rotor for the Hornady measure. The Hornady with a rifle insert only goes up to ~100 grains. The 265gr is acheived with a special insert for 50 BMG. When you are using it, the minimum load you can throw is ~80gr. |
| I started using a Lyman Gen 6 electric powder measure this year. I've only thrown ~300 loads of H322 with it so far, but it's consistantly thrown within .1 grains. 2 or 3 times its thrown ,2 over, I just dump it back in and it auto-throws the load again. The auto-throw is fast enough that by the time I seat the bullet, the next load has been thrown. I've been checking it with another scale every 50 loads or so and haven't had any issues so far. |
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Well at that volume I think you can get away with a manual thrower. Install a baffle in the hopper. Target your throw two tenths light and trickle up. For your bolt rifle precision loads that is what I would do. You're on the threshold as far as my feelings on jumping up to the electronic dispenser. One of these days I'll do it myself.
Alternatively you could got to a ball powder like TAC and it should be spot on with normal throws in dillon. (I like my stick powders though) As far as your dillon throwing all over the map. If your bench is not dead solid you will get variance from the wobbling changing your throw force. I dealt with that for years with a Sears craftsman machinists bench with my dillon on it. If I loaded the bench up with all my stores of bullets and bags of shot it wasn't so bad. A bolted to the wall bench really does make a difference, I just couldn't do it in a rental. ETA- another hack I learned about on other precision rifle boards; duct tape a vibrator to the hopper to consistently settle the powder bar. Yep, the lady's sex toy. It reportedly works well. I haven't tried it. |
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Are you sure the bell crank cube is there or attached properly? Yes, it's there...attached properly? Well, the white cube slides up & down a bit in the slot. Not sure if that is normal. Do you have the large powder bar in? Yes Is the failsafe rod is inserted from the large plate into the small plate? Yes, the failsafe rod hook enters the large plate on the left first, and then the small plate as it goes to the right Are you working the press smoothly? Meh, about the same as I did for the last 10,000 rounds of pistol Is the powder bar moving fully back and forth? This is where I'm seeing some variation, to be sure. I set the bar (properly, I think) to travel the white cube to the end of the slot and no further, but when you bring the arm back up and the ram down, the bar doesn't seem to always return fully. Sometimes it stops about 1/4" from full travel. Would this be caused by the failsafe rod not being correct? If all else fails, call Dillon! XBR should be metering better than that in your measure.
On my list of things to do on my next day off. Meanwhile, last night I made 80 rounds by throwing +/- 37-41 grains from the 650 and transferring it to the scale pan, and then trickling up to my target of 42.6, and then funneling to the brass, and then back to the press for seating and crimping. It seemed slightly more consistent this time than the 1st time, with slightly less wild variation, although a few throws went as high as 44 grains. When I get a day off, I'm going to follow DryFlash's advice and do the tuning suggested in his link, and see if that helps too. |
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As far as your dillon throwing all over the map. If your bench is not dead solid you will get variance from the wobbling changing your throw force. I dealt with that for years with a Sears craftsman machinists bench with my dillon on it. If I loaded the bench up with all my stores of bullets and bags of shot it wasn't so bad. A bolted to the wall bench really does make a difference, I just couldn't do it in a rental. This may be my problem, too. My press is on a Husky tool cart. I'll look into weighing it down ETA- another hack I learned about on other precision rifle boards; duct tape a vibrator to the hopper to consistently settle the powder bar. Yep, the lady's sex toy. It reportedly works well. I haven't tried it. This would make for some interesting GD pics! 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is the powder bar moving fully back and forth? This is where I'm seeing some variation, to be sure. I set the bar (properly, I think) to travel the white cube to the end of the slot and no further, but when you bring the arm back up and the ram down, the bar doesn't seem to always return fully. Sometimes it stops about 1/4" from full travel. Would this be caused by the failsafe rod not being correct? You may want to adjust your fail safe rod a little tighter and make sure when you're operating the press you move the handle fully aft. You have the correct power funnel in? I know I did that once. Had powder all over the place!! The good thing of it is, you're experienced with the 650, so it's probably something simple that you over looked. I know that's how it usually works for me! I wish you luck figuring out this problem! Let us know what it is/was! |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: As far as your dillon throwing all over the map. If your bench is not dead solid you will get variance from the wobbling changing your throw force. I dealt with that for years with a Sears craftsman machinists bench with my dillon on it. If I loaded the bench up with all my stores of bullets and bags of shot it wasn't so bad. A bolted to the wall bench really does make a difference, I just couldn't do it in a rental. This may be my problem, too. My press is on a Husky tool cart. I'll look into weighing it down ETA- another hack I learned about on other precision rifle boards; duct tape a vibrator to the hopper to consistently settle the powder bar. Yep, the lady's sex toy. It reportedly works well. I haven't tried it. This would make for some interesting GD pics! Actually this is serious advice and has been mentioned here many times in the past. I just have never had to use anything like it before, so I didn't mention this. Just leave GD stuff in GD. A pic of a vibrator taped to a powder hopper is fine here. Your lack of a proper fixed bench that does not flex could well be your largest issue I believe. Good luck. |
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My Hornady powder measure will throw 10 charges of XBR like this (target = 24.0 gr)
24.0 24.0 24.1 24.0 24.0 23.9 24.0 24.0 24.1 24.0 Something like that.
It really likes XBR, and does almost as well with H322. Ball powders like TAC are very simple and easy as well. It gets a +- .2 grain variation with RL7 and Varget. Your technique in using the throw has to be dead nuts repeatable as far as speed, hold and amount of force used. ZA |
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As far as your dillon throwing all over the map. If your bench is not dead solid you will get variance from the wobbling changing your throw force. I dealt with that for years with a Sears craftsman machinists bench with my dillon on it. If I loaded the bench up with all my stores of bullets and bags of shot it wasn't so bad. A bolted to the wall bench really does make a difference, I just couldn't do it in a rental. This may be my problem, too. My press is on a Husky tool cart. I'll look into weighing it down ETA- another hack I learned about on other precision rifle boards; duct tape a vibrator to the hopper to consistently settle the powder bar. Yep, the lady's sex toy. It reportedly works well. I haven't tried it. This would make for some interesting GD pics!
The wobble really didn't catch me eye (and ire) until I was loading some rifle rounds on the dillon with the shellplate too loose. Operating the press with the taller cartridges and the wobble was visible and objectionable. Of course the shellplate should have been tighter but just working the arm was causing a substantial wobble. |
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Quoted: The wobble really didn't catch me eye (and ire) until I was loading some rifle rounds on the dillon with the shellplate too loose. Operating the press with the taller cartridges and the wobble was visible and objectionable. Of course the shellplate should have been tighter but just working the arm was causing a substantial wobble. |
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While my 650 apparently needs some tweeks, I went ahead and ordered a RCBS Chargemaster. Natchezhas them on sale for $289.99. I threw in a couple of ammo blocks to get me over $300.00, and will be using the current RCBS $50 Rebate Promotion getting my cost on the Chargemaster effectively down to $240.00. Solid Deal!
Even if I work out the kinks with my 650, I've got friends telling me I HAVE to get a single stage for precision and need to buy a Rock Chucker or a Forster Co-Ax. We'll see.... |
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Quoted:
While my 650 apparently needs some tweeks, I went ahead and ordered a RCBS Chargemaster. Natchezhas them on sale for $289.99. I threw in a couple of ammo blocks to get me over $300.00, and will be using the current RCBS $50 Rebate Promotion getting my cost on the Chargemaster effectively down to $240.00. Solid Deal! Even if I work out the kinks with my 650, I've got friends telling me I HAVE to get a single stage for precision and need to buy a Rock Chucker or a Forster Co-Ax. We'll see.... Your friends are giving you good advice. |
| Used my new Chargemaster 1500 for the 1st time last night. The 'auto-dispense' feature is quite awesome. Sped things up considerably. All my throws (42.6g) were consistent (checked many on my other scale) and I'm very happy with my purchase. Thanks to those who offered advice in this thread. |
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