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Posted: 12/2/2014 11:34:55 PM EDT
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Alright, this is going to be a lengthy post as I want to tell my whole story.
I've been hand loading for a little over a year now and I'm having some problems in recent days. I started noticing some pierced primers on some plinking loads (nothing loaded extremely hot). After further examination, I found my firing pin was damaged on the very tip and wasn't nice and round. This, I believe, was the cause of my piercings as I tested the loads with a new firing pin an they were fine. Upon further thinking, I decided that something else was wrong with my loads to cause these piercings in the first place (to cause erosion to my firing pin). So I went out today to test some loads that were identical except for the primers (Tula vs CCI). After chambering one of my rounds I decided to manually eject it to see if I had some setback (to check my neck tension). When I went to eject the round with the charging handle, it wouldn't come out. I gave it a good pull and the case came out with a spray of powder. My bullet was stuck in the chamber! I have a feeling it was touching the rifling. I brought it home and ran a dowel rod through the barrel and had to tap pretty hard several times to get the bullet to come out. So I took some of my commercial brass cases similar to the ones I had loaded in the test rounds and loaded some dummy rounds in them. I was not able to replicate the bullet sticking in the chamber upon ejection, however, I did notice some setback occurring. So I then took the round and pressed the bullet tip onto my bench and it moved. Bingo... bad neck tension. I resized the case in my FL sizing die (which I had set up with my LE Wilson case gauge) and reloaded the dummy round. What do you know... the bullet wouldn't go into the case upon me pressing it on my bench. Here is where things get weird. The commercial brass I had sized originally and loaded was before I got the case gauge. I know that the FL sizing die was lower than what it was after I set it up with the case gauge. Following the Lee instructions, it says to lower the die to the shell holder, then turn 1/3 to 1/4 turn more (this caused more sizing to take place than necessary according to my gauge). So after backing off and sizing, the cases fit the gauge nicely (between lower and upper step). After sizing the brass according to the case gauge, the bullets have adequate neck tension. A few questions that I need some answers on are: 1. Why would my neck tension be greater if my sizing die was backed out more to match what the Wilson case gauge called for? Wouldn't the neck tension be greater if you turn the die clockwise? 2. I have about 200 - 300 of these loads that I suspect have bad neck tension (i.e. resized cases before I got my case gauge). I've read that placing a crimp on them will not correct lack of neck tension. Is that right? 3. Should I just pull the 200 - 300 rounds, decap, resize and reload to be safe? 3a. If I resize my brass, is there a way to just resize the neck with the Lee FL sizing die? I don't want to have to decap, resize and then reinsert primers. Here is some info about my loads I was testing that I had some of the piercings with (loaded each of these with Tula and CCI primers): Test 1: 24.6gr Benchmark, 55gr Hornady Softpoint, OAL = 2.245, no crimp (full cannelure was visible), mixed commercial brass Test 2: 27gr BLC2, 55gr Hornady FMJBT, OAL = 2.245, no crimp (seated just at the bottom of the cannelure), mixed commercial brass (I worked up both these loads in a ladder and these were the most accurate in case anyone is wondering) Sorry for the lengthy post. I really want to figure out what's going on here. I could use the advice of the knowledgable folks on this board. Thanks in advance! |
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Alright, this is going to be a lengthy post as I want to tell my whole story. I've been hand loading for a little over a year now and I'm having some problems in recent days. I started noticing some pierced primers on some plinking loads (nothing loaded extremely hot). After further examination, I found my firing pin was damaged on the very tip and wasn't nice and round. This, I believe, was the cause of my piercings as I tested the loads with a new firing pin an they were fine. Upon further thinking, I decided that something else was wrong with my loads to cause these piercings in the first place (to cause erosion to my firing pin). So I went out today to test some loads that were identical except for the primers (Tula vs CCI). After chambering one of my rounds I decided to manually eject it to see if I had some setback (to check my neck tension). When I went to eject the round with the charging handle, it wouldn't come out. I gave it a good pull and the case came out with a spray of powder. My bullet was stuck in the chamber! I have a feeling it was touching the rifling. I brought it home and ran a dowel rod through the barrel and had to tap pretty hard several times to get the bullet to come out. So I took some of my commercial brass cases similar to the ones I had loaded in the test rounds and loaded some dummy rounds in them. I was not able to replicate the bullet sticking in the chamber upon ejection, however, I did notice some setback occurring. So I then took the round and pressed the bullet tip onto my bench and it moved. Bingo... bad neck tension. I resized the case in my FL sizing die (which I had set up with my LE Wilson case gauge) and reloaded the dummy round. What do you know... the bullet wouldn't go into the case upon me pressing it on my bench. Here is where things get weird. The commercial brass I had sized originally and loaded was before I got the case gauge. I know that the FL sizing die was lower than what it was after I set it up with the case gauge. Following the Lee instructions, it says to lower the die to the shell holder, then turn 1/3 to 1/4 turn more (this caused more sizing to take place than necessary according to my gauge). So after backing off and sizing, the cases fit the gauge nicely (between lower and upper step). After sizing the brass according to the case gauge, the bullets have adequate neck tension. A few questions that I need some answers on are: 1. Why would my neck tension be greater if my sizing die was backed out more to match what the Wilson case gauge called for? Wouldn't the neck tension be greater if you turn the die clockwise? Not really. The size die isn't adjusting the neck tension for the most part. One direct effect is the neck diameter on that die, the other is the expander. If you have a way to check the diameter of that expander ball, you should. Also, do you lubricate the case neck ID as you size? For sure the OD needs to be lubricated, but don't underestimate the friction effects of the expander. 2. I have about 200 - 300 of these loads that I suspect have bad neck tension (i.e. resized cases before I got my case gauge). I've read that placing a crimp on them will not correct lack of neck tension. Is that right? If the neck tension is bad, don't try to correct it with crimp alone. This should be a punt. 3. Should I just pull the 200 - 300 rounds, decap, resize and reload to be safe? You already know the answer, damage to a firing pin or a lodged bullet is one thing, but the consequence could be worse if you are going too fast and pull the trigger without thinking. 3a. If I resize my brass, is there a way to just resize the neck with the Lee FL sizing die? I don't want to have to decap, resize and then reinsert primers. You would be able to adjust for getting the expander to do its job while not pushing out the primer. There is also such a thing as a neck only die, see if you can borrow one from a friend. Here is some info about my loads I was testing that I had some of the piercings with (loaded each of these with Tula and CCI primers): Test 1: 24.6gr Benchmark, 55gr Hornady Softpoint, OAL = 2.245, no crimp (full cannelure was visible), mixed commercial brass Test 2: 27gr BLC2, 55gr Hornady FMJBT, OAL = 2.245, no crimp (seated just at the bottom of the cannelure), mixed commercial brass (I worked up both these loads in a ladder and these were the most accurate in case anyone is wondering) Sorry for the lengthy post. I really want to figure out what's going on here. I could use the advice of the knowledgable folks on this board. Thanks in advance! |
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Thank you RegionRat for the reply. Please see some thoughts and additional questions below:
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A few questions that I need some answers on are: 1. Why would my neck tension be greater if my sizing die was backed out more to match what the Wilson case gauge called for? Wouldn't the neck tension be greater if you turn the die clockwise? Not really. The size die isn't adjusting the neck tension for the most part. One direct effect is the neck diameter on that die, the other is the expander. If you have a way to check the diameter of that expander ball, you should. Also, do you lubricate the case neck ID as you size? For sure the OD needs to be lubricated, but don't underestimate the friction effects of the expander. I was able to disassemble my FL sizing die. The expander ball measures. 0.222". Does that sound correct? I use the Hornady One Shot lube and a ziplock bag method. I put the cases in a ziplock bag, close the back except for enough space to stick the red straw of the lube in and spray. Then shake the bag. I can see how some of the case necks wouldn't get lubed with this method. Should I rethink my lubing technique? 2. I have about 200 - 300 of these loads that I suspect have bad neck tension (i.e. resized cases before I got my case gauge). I've read that placing a crimp on them will not correct lack of neck tension. Is that right? If the neck tension is bad, don't try to correct it with crimp alone. This should be a punt. 3. Should I just pull the 200 - 300 rounds, decap, resize and reload to be safe? You already know the answer, damage to a firing pin or a lodged bullet is one thing, but the consequence could be worse if you are going too fast and pull the trigger without thinking. I guess I have some work to do... I guess I should also resize all my fully prepped cases too as I'm not 100% certain they've all been sized correctly. I have roughly 2000 or so fully prepped. Ugh. 3a. If I resize my brass, is there a way to just resize the neck with the Lee FL sizing die? I don't want to have to decap, resize and then reinsert primers. You would be able to adjust for getting the expander to do its job while not pushing out the primer. There is also such a thing as a neck only die, see if you can borrow one from a friend. So how would I use my current die? Would I back off the decapping pin so it's not sticking out from the bottom of the die and try neck sizing that way? Not sure if any of my friends have a neck sizing die. Would prefer not to buy one either. |
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Hello bewkited: Are you cleaning lube from cases before charging with powder and seating bullet? Resize a case, measure neck of case after sizing, seat bullet into case, again measure neck of case. The difference should be .002 to .0025 for good neck tension. I generally tumble the cases in corn cob media after resizing to clean the lube. The suspect cases though, I'm not sure if I did it not. I'll have to pay more attention to the case neck size before and after seating. Thanks. EDIT: I was able to test my neck tension. I took a suspected bad case and loaded a bullet. The neck diameter didn't change at all after loading. I was able to push the bullet in by hand. After pulling the bullet, I then resized and did it again. My neck diameter changed only by .001", however, I was not able to push the round further in by hand. Is .001" enough tension? Also, I've read that I can polish down my expander ball by .0015 to .001 to increase neck tension. Is this recommended? |
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Are you using Lee Dies?
I have a few Lee dies and the resizing die decapping stem does not have a resizing ball/button but uses the stem diameter to resize inside neck diameter.. I have had neck tension issues with my Dillon 223/5.56 resizing die. Stem button was too large and was giving only .001 tension. With the Dillon design I was able to remove the button from the stem. Now I resize with no button installed and expand the neck with a mandrel die. Of course this adds another step. I am now getting a .0025 tension fit. 
http://www.brownells.com/reloading/case-preparation/neck-turning/turning-amp-expander-mandrels/sinclair-generation-ii-expander-dies-prod38807.aspx This was my answer for the problem. I am sure others may approach this differently. Yes I would polish the ball/button/stem to get at least a .002 expansion fit when seating bullets. Hope this helps with the tension problem. BTW- I don't understand how raising and lowering your die changed the neck tension. |
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Thanks primerhead. Yes I'm using Lee dies (no ball on the rod, it's a gradual stem).
So I shouldn't have any problems polishing my stem down .001 or so? Edit: Another thought. I'm using an RCBS press with the Lee dies. Could that cause any issues? Should I consider switching to RCBS dies? |
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Make certain your firing pin is replaced. Rough firing pins can lead to primer perforation.
As far as neck tension adjustment, don't forget the basics: 1. Measure the inside diameter of your case necks is .222 or .223. Use an inside micrometer 2. anneal your case necks 3. Brush out the case necks with a nylon or bronze .223 bore brush (the same one you clean your rifle with). This is probably not necessary, but I'd worry a bit about neck cleanliness. 4. Check cases for any cracks. You've had no problem over a year, but if you have used your cases a while, who knows. Try switching primers. The CCI should be okay, but I;d have some concerns over Tula. Try decreasing the amount of propellant. Even though these loads proved to be most precise, they may also be destructive (in your gun) during winter conditions. Switch powders if necessary. |
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Rcbs/Lee press die combo should not be the problem. This combo should work together.
My suggestion would be: 1-Remove enough material from the Lee resizing die stem to achieve a .002/.0025 bullet to case neck tension fit. 2-Pull the reloads that you have determined to have the improper neck tension. Resize these using the corrected stem and the proper adjusted resizing die. You should be set to reload the cases that now will have adequate neck tension. |
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Quoted: Snip A few questions that I need some answers on are: 1. Why would my neck tension be greater if my sizing die was backed out more to match what the Wilson case gauge called for? Wouldn't the neck tension be greater if you turn the die clockwise? No, neck tension is dependent on the sizer ball on the decapping stem. Yours sounds like it's the correct size. You do need to lube case necks (inside). You method is not lubing the case necks. I would get some Lanolin spray lube like Dillon or the home made, much better lube than one shot. Most new reloaders get stuck cases with this stuff. 2. I have about 200 - 300 of these loads that I suspect have bad neck tension (i.e. resized cases before I got my case gauge). I've read that placing a crimp on them will not correct lack of neck tension. Is that right? Need to pull them. (get a collet puller to make this easier) 3. Should I just pull the 200 - 300 rounds, decap, resize and reload to be safe? Need to pull them. (get a collet puller to make this easier) 3a. If I resize my brass, is there a way to just resize the neck with the Lee FL sizing die? No I don't want to have to decap, resize and then reinsert primers. Too late for that. Here is some info about my loads I was testing that I had some of the piercings with (loaded each of these with Tula and CCI primers): Test 1: 24.6gr Benchmark, 55gr Hornady Softpoint, OAL = 2.245, no crimp (full cannelure was visible), mixed commercial brass. Should have been seated to mid cannelure for proper neck tension if cases were resized correctly. OAL would have close to 2.20 (cases trimmed to 1.750) I don't use this powder, no comment on the charge. Test 2: 27gr BLC2, 55gr Hornady FMJBT, OAL = 2.245, no crimp (seated just at the bottom of the cannelure), mixed commercial brass. Should have been seated to mid cannelure for proper neck tension if cases were resized correctly. OAL would have close to 2.20 (cases trimmed to 1.750) 27.0 grs is a max load that should have been worked up to carefully and never should have used mixed headstamps. This is probably the load that pierced primers and ruined your firing pin. I have settled on 26.5 grs in LC cases and consider that a full power load in my AR's. (I worked up both these loads in a ladder and these were the most accurate in case anyone is wondering) Just should have not mixed headstamps. Not a good practice with full power loads. Sorry for the lengthy post. I really want to figure out what's going on here. I could use the advice of the knowledgable folks on this board. Thanks in advance! Another thought, Die adjusting instructions are to get you a start point only. Then you adjust your sizing die to fit your rifles chamber. Sounds like you did this with your case gauge. So nothing strange there. Good luck |
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I'm finding strange results. So on some brass, I'm getting .002" of neck tension and others none. This varies from brand to brand. Could this also be attributed to the fact that I may have sized some improperly and/or didn't have enough lube inside the case neck?
Depending on the answer to that question, I'm wondering if I should even polish the expander stem at all. Would removing .001 off the stem hurt anything? Is .003 neck tension too much? Thanks again. |
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Sir, I've read through your post and reread both yours and the responses of the others. Without agreeing or disagreeing with anything already posted I'll provide a few comments of my own.
First, resizing and case neck tension are only related insofar as the neck portion of the resizing die determines the outside diameter of the resized case neck. The outside diameter of the expander ball will determine the inside diameter of the resized case given the case neck wall thickness and the elasticity of the brass. The case gage you are using measures shoulder set back and is only and indication that the resized case falls within the SAAMI dimension for cartridge head space. Your case gage does not offer any meaningful indication of sufficient neck tension. Keep in mind that brass has certain metallic properties including malleability and elasticity. Elasticity diminishes as the brass becomes work hardened. In other words the more you reload a given case the more the brass becomes "work hardened" and the elasticity is diminished. That's where annealing comes in. Annealing is a process of heating the neck area to restore the elasticity but must be accomplished properly to ensure the brass is not overheated which will result in the brass being too soft. My suggestion to you is to measure the case neck outside diameter, subtract the case neck wall thickness times two, and determine how much smaller that dimension is below the outside diameter of the bullets you are using which I would assume is .224". Another way is to simply compare the inside diameter of the resized case neck to that of the bullet. My rule of thumb for .223 Rem is the case neck ID should be .002"-.003" less than the OD of the bullets you are using. It has been my experience that most commercial dies resize the case necks too small. I suppose the theory is that it is better for the case neck to be too small than not small enough. Keep in mind that with cases that have been work hardened even when the dimensional tolerances are within spec you may still not have proper neck tension and you need to anneal. Nowhere in this discussion has case length been mentioned. The length of the resized case should be less than 2.760". If your resized cases are above this dimension this may be part of the problem as the leade or throat of you rifle chamber may be compressing the case neck increasing tension around the bullet as the cartridge is chambered in the rifle. Make sure your resized case length is within limits and trim accordingly. Lastly, given the OD of your expander ball it might be wise to buy a better sizing die and use a carbide expander ball. As has already been mentioned do not disregard the possible distortion of the case neck due to the friction of withdrawing the expander ball from the interior of the case body through the inside diameter of the case neck. I like to use Imperial sizing wax to lube the outside of the case as well as a small bit scraped across the case neck mouth just before insertion into the case holder prior to resizing. FWIW I personally use a case neck expander mandrel as a final step to provide the desired case neck ID. Sinclair, Int. sells them, check out their web site. HTH, 7zero1. |
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Side Questions to OP......
1) How far below the bottom of your LEE full length sizing die is the end of the decapper pin protruding? Related .... Is the top of the pin flush with the decapper clamp? If not, higher or lower? 2) Have you stuck a case yet? If so....did you beat on the pin or jam things inside the die to get case out? (Not picking on ya .... just asking as many of us have been there) 3) Are you using the shell holder that came with your LEE FLS Die? 4) How far above the top of your shell holder is the bottom of the die now that you have "adjusted" it. Keep in mind that to my knowledge you will not find any LEE directions suggesting backing out the die to make headspace adjustments. ( that said fwiw....as the typical headspace adjustment on a LEE FLS die falls between no adjustment needed and +.008 to .01 to compensate for it being made to size to saami miniums .... I suggest using these to adjust headspace when using LEE FLS while continuing to follow LEE's directions and screwing die to touch shell holder + 1/4 to 1/3 turn as the threads are too course to make fine tune repeatable adjustments..... this way you are able to take FLS die in and out and set back up with much more easily repeatable results after you determine which graduated shell holder applies to your purpose. ...at least I found it that way....love my LEE dies.....I get very repeatable neck tension and headspace with them....ymmv I'd also invest in a headspace gauge so you can more simply compare after fired brass headspace to post sized...but that's just me....using your guage and gun chamber to check works too I guess. (Yes I realizing #3 and #4 probably have no bearing on neck tension.....first two might though.) |
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I was thinking about getting some RCBS 223 dies to match my press. Have folks found that RCBS is more consistent than Lee? Wondering if those dies would provide me a better result in regards to neck tension or if I should just polish my Lee expander stem. With all due respect.....you have received a lot of good suggestions above regarding your neck tension issue. I suggest you read it all and apply it before changing dies. while it's possible.....your issue is probably not your equipments fault. Break some rounds down as have been suggested to you. Resize using proper lube ...... while following LEE's directions for FLS die (all the way plus 1/4) and making sure decapper pin isn't sticking out abnormally far or not far enough ( about 3/16's below base of die...just enough to decap, no more - no less). check case length as has been suggested If problem persists ..... the taper decapper pin might need some attention. LEE dies are plenty capable...as are the RCBS's no offense intended (also fwiw..... a quick call to LEE in the morning will most likely have you a new taper pin in hand by the end of next week if you prefer to play it that way...even though it sounds like more of a sizing issue or seating issue to me...hope this helps) |
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I was thinking about getting some RCBS 223 dies to match my press. Have folks found that RCBS is more consistent than Lee? Wondering if those dies would provide me a better result in regards to neck tension or if I should just polish my Lee expander stem. Sir, I have a few used sets of RCBS dies, I stopped using them quite a few years ago. AFAIK, RCBS does not offer a carbide expander ball option and the configuration of the decapping pin tension screw/expander ball doesn't offer much flexibility. My personal choice of the commercial dies available are Redding, including the competition seater. Lacking that I use Forester. As I mentioned previously dies only provide a finished dimension. The only real adjustment is shoulder set back, everything else is permanent alteration of an internal adjustment. It's difficult to alter the inside diameter of the neck portion of a resizing die. Special purpose tools are required. Dimensional differences from one resized case to the next are due to differences in each piece of brass including differences in elasticity and case wall thickness. HTH, 7zero1. |
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Quoted: I was thinking about getting some RCBS 223 dies to match my press. Have folks found that RCBS is more consistent than Lee? Wondering if those dies would provide me a better result in regards to neck tension or if I should just polish my Lee expander stem. I don't believe your dies are the problem. Sort your cases. Use the ones without problems. Revisit the cases giving you problems when you have a bit more experience. |
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Side Questions to OP...... 1) How far below the bottom of your LEE full length sizing die is the end of the decapper pin protruding? Related .... Is the top of the pin flush with the decapper clamp? If not, higher or lower? Just measured. About 0.215" out of the bottom. The top of the pin is just above the decapper clamp. I'd say about 0.04" 2) Have you stuck a case yet? If so....did you beat on the pin or jam things inside the die to get case out? (Not picking on ya .... just asking as many of us have been there) Never had a stuck case with the Hornady One shot. I've FL sized about 3k cases with it. 3) Are you using the shell holder that came with your LEE FLS Die? Yes 4) How far above the top of your shell holder is the bottom of the die now that you have "adjusted" it. Keep in mind that to my knowledge you will not find any LEE directions suggesting backing out the die to make headspace adjustments. It still touches the shell holder. There is barely any resistance when lowering the press handle. |
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Side Questions to OP...... 1) How far below the bottom of your LEE full length sizing die is the end of the decapper pin protruding? Related .... Is the top of the pin flush with the decapper clamp? If not, higher or lower? Just measured. About 0.215" out of the bottom. The top of the pin is just above the decapper clamp. I'd say about 0.04" OK...Good...pin placement isn't it then. 2) Have you stuck a case yet? If so....did you beat on the pin or jam things inside the die to get case out? (Not picking on ya .... just asking as many of us have been there) Never had a stuck case with the Hornady One shot. I've FL sized about 3k cases with it. OK...also good....pin has worked good in the past and wasn't recently fiddled with...good sign. 3) Are you using the shell holder that came with your LEE FLS Die? Yes OK ... also good. 4) How far above the top of your shell holder is the bottom of the die now that you have "adjusted" it. Keep in mind that to my knowledge you will not find any LEE directions suggesting backing out the die to make headspace adjustments. It still touches the shell holder. There is barely any resistance when lowering the press handle. Ok good as to still touching But what do you mean when you say barely any resistance...as in, it doesn't feel like its being sized any more?? FOLLOW UP point....did you read all of the answers (including dryflash's points about oal using that particular bullet as that seems important too, yes ? FOLLOW UP question ... did you buy the Lee Pacesetter set that includes the collet neck sizer too? |
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No. my equipment came from my brother who used to reload. Have an RCBS Rock Chucker 2. Bought the Lee .223 (3 die) set that included a factory crimp die. Quoted:
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FOLLOW UP question ... did you buy the Lee Pacesetter set that includes the collet neck sizer too? No. my equipment came from my brother who used to reload. Have an RCBS Rock Chucker 2. Bought the Lee .223 (3 die) set that included a factory crimp die. OK ... now what about other question...what did you mean when you said you aren't feeling any resistance on downstroke ...... is this after you backed the die out? Do you mean it doesn't feel like its sizing any more? If so, that could definitely be the issue. |
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Drop in case gages are almost worthless, adjust the dies you already own so the resized brass is very close to the lowest cut on the gage, no lower. It's better to have a little too much resizing than not enough.
Remove your expander ball and chuck it and it's stem in a power drill. Using 600 grit sand paper polish the expander ball until it's .001" smaller in diameter than it's current dimension. This will smooth the extraction process when drawing the ball back through the neck and increase neck tension a little. Don't remove more than .001". I think 27.0 grains of BL-C2 is at or over maximum with most bullet makers published 55 grain data. Piercing primers requires a substantially higher load than standard 55 grain fmj's require for decent accuracy and proper functioning. I'd drop that at least 1.0 grain. Firing pins are cheap and plentiful, buy a couple replacements and throw the damaged one away. Once a firing pin is damaged they will continue to pierce primers even with standard loads. I dislike BL-C2 so much I poured mine around the lawn. Expensive fertilizer. |
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OK ... now what about other question...what did you mean when you said you aren't feeling any resistance on downstroke ...... is this after you backed the die out? Do you mean it doesn't feel like its sizing any more? If so, that could definitely be the issue. Quoted:
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FOLLOW UP question ... did you buy the Lee Pacesetter set that includes the collet neck sizer too? No. my equipment came from my brother who used to reload. Have an RCBS Rock Chucker 2. Bought the Lee .223 (3 die) set that included a factory crimp die. OK ... now what about other question...what did you mean when you said you aren't feeling any resistance on downstroke ...... is this after you backed the die out? Do you mean it doesn't feel like its sizing any more? If so, that could definitely be the issue. Not really sure how to explain it and I don't know the correct terms, but I believe I mean that I'm not over camming the press. If I set up the die the way the Lee instructions state (1/4 past the point where it's just touching the shell holder), then when I lower the press handle, I come to a point where you have to force the handle down to fully extend the handle and it locks into place. Since I've backed off the die some, that point where it meets the shell holder and there was resistance before, is much less now. I hope that makes sense. Let me know if it doesn't. Haha. On another note... I plan on continuing my testing to see what's going wrong. I have a hypothesis and I would like the very knowledgable folks that have helped me thus far to confirm: I think I'm lubing incorrectly (i.e. not getting enough in the case neck... if any at all). This is likely causing friction when the expander ball is brought through the case mouth. If I'm reading the replies correctly, this may be causing inconsistencies in my case necks and affecting neck tension. I ordered some pure lanolin and 99% isopropyl alcohol today on Amazon to make some Ghetto lube. I think this will help greatly. I believe I have my die set correctly (so the brass falls between upper and lower step on my Wilson case gauge), and my decapping pin is configured correctly, so I don't think I'm doing anything wrong there. I've read a lot about using a fired case to correctly set my die and taking readings off of it, blah blah, but honestly it confuses the crap out of me so I'm going to stay away from that right now (just going to stick with the case falling between the upper/lower step of the gauge). After I do some tests with the new lube, then I'll check to make sure I'm getting proper neck tension after seating bullets. I'm also going to have to break down all the rounds I've loaded thus far and resize those cases (God help me). Also resize all my brass I've prepped so far. It's going to be a long winter. |
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borderpatrol:
My case is actually closer to the lower step as you have said, but just above it as I meet resistance when using a straight edge when running across it. I agree that 27gr of BLC2 is on the high end (Hodgdon's site says 27.5 is max). I'll likely lower this by 1gr as these are just plinking loads. Like you, I've not found good accuracy with it so I just took the pound I had and loaded it up (after doing a ladder). I'll likely wait to test my new lube, etc. as I said in my other post before chucking the decapping pin/expander stem in a drill. Thank you all for your help! This forum is awesome! |
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Not really sure how to explain it and I don't know the correct terms, but I believe I mean that I'm not over camming the press. If I set up the die the way the Lee instructions state (1/4 past the point where it's just touching the shell holder), then when I lower the press handle, I come to a point where you have to force the handle down to fully extend the handle and it locks into place. Since I've backed off the die some, that point where it meets the shell holder and there was resistance before, is much less now. I hope that makes sense. Let me know if it doesn't. Haha. On another note... I plan on continuing my testing to see what's going wrong. I have a hypothesis and I would like the very knowledgable folks that have helped me thus far to confirm: I think I'm lubing incorrectly (i.e. not getting enough in the case neck... if any at all). This is likely causing friction when the expander ball is brought through the case mouth. If I'm reading the replies correctly, this may be causing inconsistencies in my case necks and affecting neck tension. I ordered some pure lanolin and 99% isopropyl alcohol today on Amazon to make some Ghetto lube. I think this will help greatly. I believe I have my die set correctly (so the brass falls between upper and lower step on my Wilson case gauge), and my decapping pin is configured correctly, so I don't think I'm doing anything wrong there. I've read a lot about using a fired case to correctly set my die and taking readings off of it, blah blah, but honestly it confuses the crap out of me so I'm going to stay away from that right now (just going to stick with the case falling between the upper/lower step of the gauge). After I do some tests with the new lube, then I'll check to make sure I'm getting proper neck tension after seating bullets. I'm also going to have to break down all the rounds I've loaded thus far and resize those cases (God help me). Also resize all my brass I've prepped so far. It's going to be a long winter. Quoted:
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FOLLOW UP question ... did you buy the Lee Pacesetter set that includes the collet neck sizer too? No. my equipment came from my brother who used to reload. Have an RCBS Rock Chucker 2. Bought the Lee .223 (3 die) set that included a factory crimp die. OK ... now what about other question...what did you mean when you said you aren't feeling any resistance on downstroke ...... is this after you backed the die out? Do you mean it doesn't feel like its sizing any more? If so, that could definitely be the issue. Not really sure how to explain it and I don't know the correct terms, but I believe I mean that I'm not over camming the press. If I set up the die the way the Lee instructions state (1/4 past the point where it's just touching the shell holder), then when I lower the press handle, I come to a point where you have to force the handle down to fully extend the handle and it locks into place. Since I've backed off the die some, that point where it meets the shell holder and there was resistance before, is much less now. I hope that makes sense. Let me know if it doesn't. Haha. On another note... I plan on continuing my testing to see what's going wrong. I have a hypothesis and I would like the very knowledgable folks that have helped me thus far to confirm: I think I'm lubing incorrectly (i.e. not getting enough in the case neck... if any at all). This is likely causing friction when the expander ball is brought through the case mouth. If I'm reading the replies correctly, this may be causing inconsistencies in my case necks and affecting neck tension. I ordered some pure lanolin and 99% isopropyl alcohol today on Amazon to make some Ghetto lube. I think this will help greatly. I believe I have my die set correctly (so the brass falls between upper and lower step on my Wilson case gauge), and my decapping pin is configured correctly, so I don't think I'm doing anything wrong there. I've read a lot about using a fired case to correctly set my die and taking readings off of it, blah blah, but honestly it confuses the crap out of me so I'm going to stay away from that right now (just going to stick with the case falling between the upper/lower step of the gauge). After I do some tests with the new lube, then I'll check to make sure I'm getting proper neck tension after seating bullets. I'm also going to have to break down all the rounds I've loaded thus far and resize those cases (God help me). Also resize all my brass I've prepped so far. It's going to be a long winter. That's a decent plan, and smart of you to get to the bottom of it even though its a pain......loose bullets could be a big problem, good thinking to stay with it until you have it figured out and fixed!. Regarding the cam over comments and how it feels ......I am still unclear but we can come back to that after your go through your proposed tests with lube, etc. There is no cam-over required with LEE dies though...you go till case holder meets die as the hard stop and shouldn't need to force it from there. You will like the bootleg lube...its good stuff. I have seen pins that need to be reduced a little.....but I like the idea of trying good lube first. Give your resizing die and pin a good cleaning too if you haven't already. Finally......please don't miss what I believe was an important point made by dryflash above..........he is suggesting you aren't seating your bullets far enough in addition to other good things. This compounds the issue if neck tension is less than optimal. l8r |
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Finally......please don't miss what I believe was an important point made by dryflash above..........he is suggesting you aren't seating your bullets far enough in addition to other good things. This compounds the issue if neck tension is less than optimal. l8r Yep. Saw that and have taken note. Even with the Hotnady one shot, I'm finding if I'm able to properly lube the cases and get it in the case mouth, my neck tension seems to be adequate. I'm not able to push the rounds in with the same amount of force I was before. This is the case on loads I pushed the rounds in, broke down and reassembled a dummy round after resizing as well as suspected bad cases that I resized and put a bullet into. Thanks everyone for the advice today. I'll report back with my findings as I discover them. |
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Quoted: On another note... I plan on continuing my testing to see what's going wrong. I have a hypothesis and I would like the very knowledgable folks that have helped me thus far to confirm: I think I'm lubing incorrectly (i.e. not getting enough in the case neck... if any at all). This is likely causing friction when the expander ball is brought through the case mouth. If I'm reading the replies correctly, this may be causing inconsistencies in my case necks and affecting neck tension. I ordered some pure lanolin and 99% isopropyl alcohol today on Amazon to make some Ghetto lube. I think this will help greatly. I believe I have my die set correctly (so the brass falls between upper and lower step on my Wilson case gauge), and my decapping pin is configured correctly, so I don't think I'm doing anything wrong there. Correct, if a sized case (wipe off the lube first) chambers correctly (pull the trigger it should click) and ejects you are good. Note, sized case only, no primer, powder or bullet. Quoted: snip On another note... I plan on continuing my testing to see what's going wrong. I have a hypothesis and I would like the very knowledgable folks that have helped me thus far to confirm: I think I'm lubing incorrectly (i.e. not getting enough in the case neck... if any at all). This is likely causing friction when the expander ball is brought through the case mouth. If I'm reading the replies correctly, this may be causing inconsistencies in my case necks and affecting neck tension. I ordered some pure lanolin and 99% isopropyl alcohol today on Amazon to make some Ghetto lube. I think this will help greatly. I believe I have my die set correctly (so the brass falls between upper and lower step on my Wilson case gauge), and my decapping pin is configured correctly, so I don't think I'm doing anything wrong there. Correct, if a sized case (wipe off the lube first) chambers correctly (pull the trigger it should click) and ejects you are good. Note, sized case only, no primer, powder or bullet. I've read a lot about using a fired case to correctly set my die and taking readings off of it, blah blah, This is for a different tool, not a case gauge. but honestly it confuses the crap out of me so I'm going to stay away from that right now (just going to stick with the case falling between the upper/lower step of the gauge). Good plan. After I do some tests with the new lube, then I'll check to make sure I'm getting proper neck tension after seating bullets. I'm also going to have to break down all the rounds I've loaded thus far and resize those cases (God help me). Also resize all my brass I've prepped so far. It's going to be a long winter. You will never repeat this mistake. Everyone does something like this time to time. It's why they make bullet pullers.  You will really like the home made lube. Don't forget to get your OAL's in check. Good luck
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| Sir, I still question if the OPs resized case length is within tolerance. Just one further comment to add to what you have mentioned regarding lube. Make sure not to use to much lube on the outside of the case, hydraulic dents will occur in the vicinity of the case shoulder if you use too much. Also as you strive to apply lube to the inside of the case neck to facilitate passage of the expander ball make sure to remove the lube before charging the case and seating a bullet. Sizing lube inside the case neck seems to have an effect on case neck tension. JMHO, 7zero1. |
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Sir, I still question if the OPs resized case length is within tolerance. Just one further comment to add to what you have mentioned regarding lube. Make sure not to use to much lube on the outside of the case, hydraulic dents will occur in the vicinity of the case shoulder if you use too much. Also as you strive to apply lube to the inside of the case neck to facilitate passage of the expander ball make sure to remove the lube before charging the case and seating a bullet. Sizing lube inside the case neck seems to have an effect on case neck tension. JMHO, 7zero1. I trim all my cases to 1.750". Noted on not using too much lube. After I resize I always tumble the cases to remove the lube. Thanks! |
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