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Posted: 11/27/2014 7:44:59 AM EDT
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I was talking to a guy that reloads and he was talking a cci 41 that is designed for the AR' s. He said that so primers pre Fire as the bolt comes forward. Do any of you use the cci 41 or just the standard 400?
We are just getting into reloading and do not want to load a CRAP load faint out the pre Fire... I may even load only 50 to try out if this is a problem. |
| 41's are harder military primers. The firing pin in an AR-15 is free floating. If you cycle a round using the charging handle and extract it, you will see a dimple on the primer. Softer primers are not ideal for the AR-15 set up. I know guys who use other primers and don't have any issues. But they don't sit in their living room and cycle live rounds either. But know that it should take 3.5# to ignite a military type primer. The whole pre fire thing, first time I ever heard of any of that business. |
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Pre Fire my not be the right word here, but the is the same thing the guy said as free floating. He did say that when the charge handle comes back it could hit and fire the round off.
The CCI 400 are a harder than a Fed or win, would they be sufficient to use with the federal 5.56 NATO from Wal-Mart? Or do we have to get the other primers? |
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I've been reloading with Federal, CCI and Tula (supposed to be harder than some others) small rifle primers for my AR15's for 5 or 6 years now with no issues.
But I do not chamber rounds in the living room. In the garage or back yard, yes. At the range yes. No issues yet. Same for the bigger guns. I've used some of the CCI military primers for my M1/M1A in the last couple of years but for 30 years prior to that I used Federal and CCI regular primers for the M1A with no issues. As most folks say, just make sure, when your putting the primers in, that you fully seat the primers. You don't want them sticking up above the base of the cartridge/brass. |
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Guys, I do thank you for your responses on this topic. I would rather be safe and check than to ignore what I hear. Having my wife shooting on the range alone some days I do not need any problems for her.
We order a Hornady classic single stage kit for loading 223/5.56, 9mm and 38/357. Looks like we will be doing a lot of rifle loading till pistol powders can hit the shelves.. Been watching LOTS of videos to get as 100% as we can,,, The wife has been learning so she can be reloading what she shoots. maybe she will appreciate what goes into making that round more and not just rap off to many mag's and not think about it... |
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Pre Fire my not be the right word here, but the is the same thing the guy said as free floating. He did say that when the charge handle comes back it could hit and fire the round off. The CCI 400 are a harder than a Fed or win, would they be sufficient to use with the federal 5.56 NATO from Wal-Mart? Or do we have to get the other primers? Sir, despite some of the comments already posted I'll add a few of my own. The phenomena generally referred to as a "slam fire" occurs due to a number of possible conditions. In my humble opinion the "hardness" of the primer cup metal being the least likely. Yes the AR-15 has a free floating firing pin and will contact the primer seated in the base of the cartridge when the cartridge fully seats in the rifle chamber and the bolt closes behind it due to buffer spring force. When the bolt strips the cartridge from the feed lips of the magazine as you press the bolt release the force of seating the cartridge in the chamber is quite high and the firing pin will move forward due to inertia and contact the primer face leaving a slight dimple. That is also why a lot of AR-15 users are reluctant to seat a cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt by pressing the bolt release allowing full buffer spring force to bear against the cartridge face before full bolt lock up rotation occurs. That is why it is important to keep the bolt carrier group (bcg) reasonably clean, and removing the firing pin and cleaning it as well as the interior of the bolt. When reassembling I use a small amount of CLP on the bearing land of the bolt. Also the interior of the bolt carrier should be cleaned as well. The point being to ensure the firing pin does not protrude forward of the bolt face during cycling of the assembly as the rifle is fired. For reloaders beyond the hardness of the primer cup the primers should be fully seated such that the surface of the primer is visibly below flush with the cartridge case base to reduce the probability of a slam fire. FWIW, I've reloaded thousands of rounds I've used in practice and competition with AR-15's, M1As, M1s, etc and while I won't say I've never had a slam fire I'm reasonably certain the least likely cause is the hardness of the primer cup. For this reason our standard rule of safe gun handling applies "always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction". FWIW, I use CCI 450 for all my AR-15 competition loads and WLR for the .30 cals. HTH, 7zero1. |
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Again guys, I and my wife that you all for your input on our new hobby sport. I have my wife read what you all are posting being that you all are long time users. I also showed her what you were talking about in regards to manually releasing the charge handle letting it down by hand as to hitting the bolt catch and just check to see that is did lock all the way into fire mode, if not to use the forward assist to help.
She is the would that cleans most of the guns next to me just to know how everything works, and she does take the bolt carrier apart every time to clean... That is her baby... "You take care of it, it will take care of you". A major thanks from my wife from all your help in educating her to play wisely. I told her this is why I use forum, to learn what I do not know,,,,,,,,,,, yet. NOTE. As long as we / she lets the charge handle down softer and the loads are not max loads the CCI 400's will work? We have 5000 in stock now and we will be looking for the 41's or 450 for later use. I plan of getting a nice long range bolt rifle in 223 later to use, and if need be I will use the 400's in that. |
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I would not use CCI 400 for maximum loads. Why not? They are CCI's weakest small rifle primer. They work fine for moderate loads but shouldn't be pushed hard. Winchester standard small rifle primers are borderline as well. Never use Remington 6.5's or Wolf standard small rifle primers kvb223 when loading .223/5.56mm rounds. Remington's 7.5 and Wolf kvb5,56m or kvb223m (both are magnum rated) are great primers and are among my favorites. |
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I have had one slam fire in the past 35 years of active shooting. It happened at Camp Perry, Ohio at a NRA sanctioned regional tournament. I was loading a .308 M1 Garand after being given the order to do so. The safety was on and when the bolt went home the round fired and ejected reloading the rifle. Fortunately the muzzle was pointed about 30 yards downrange so the round impacted the dirt.
The load was 40.5 grains of IMR-4064, 168 grain SMK's seated @ 2.800" and Federal 210M match primers in Lake City match brass. I will never use Federal Gold Medal match primers in a semi-auto again after that incidence. Other's have reported similar experiences, usually in .308 Garand's. The bolt travels too far when chambered for this round and gains too much speed prior to closing to be safely used with these primers. These primers are excellent, but should be used in bolt actions because they are sensitive. |
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... NOTE. As long as we / she lets the charge handle down softer and the loads are not max loads the CCI 400's will work? We have 5000 in stock now and we will be looking for the 41's or 450 for later use. I plan of getting a nice long range bolt rifle in 223 later to use, and if need be I will use the 400's in that. No, operate the charging handle in the normal fashion to insure the bolt is 100% in battery. |
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Again guys, I and my wife that you all for your input on our new hobby sport. I have my wife read what you all are posting being that you all are long time users. I also showed her what you were talking about in regards to manually releasing the charge handle letting it down by hand as to hitting the bolt catch and just check to see that is did lock all the way into fire mode, if not to use the forward assist to help. She is the would that cleans most of the guns next to me just to know how everything works, and she does take the bolt carrier apart every time to clean... That is her baby... "You take care of it, it will take care of you". A major thanks from my wife from all your help in educating her to play wisely. I told her this is why I use forum, to learn what I do not know,,,,,,,,,,, yet. NOTE. As long as we / she lets the charge handle down softer and the loads are not max loads the CCI 400's will work? We have 5000 in stock now and we will be looking for the 41's or 450 for later use. I plan of getting a nice long range bolt rifle in 223 later to use, and if need be I will use the 400's in that. I like 7zero1's explanation, and while I primarily shoot a non-AR that does not have a floating firing pin, I also run rounds through an AR here and there. The simplest way to look at it is just run magnum primers and don't worry about it. CCI 450, CCI #41 if youreally want to, Tula SRM or 556M, Federal AR Match - there are lots of choices. Unless you already went out and bought a ton of CCI 400s...just don't. Most of the other options besides the CCI #41s are the same price as the 400s, or within $1-2/K. Is there a reason you seem to want to run the 400s? |
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He has bunches of them, i would use them but like i said just not in redline loads. Quoted:
I like 7zero1's explanation, and while I primarily shoot a non-AR that does not have a floating firing pin, I also run rounds through an AR here and there. The simplest way to look at it is just run magnum primers and don't worry about it. CCI 450, CCI #41 if youreally want to, Tula SRM or 556M, Federal AR Match - there are lots of choices. Unless you already went out and bought a ton of CCI 400s...just don't. Most of the other options besides the CCI #41s are the same price as the 400s, or within $1-2/K. Is there a reason you seem to want to run the 400s? Quoted:
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Again guys, I and my wife that you all for your input on our new hobby sport. I have my wife read what you all are posting being that you all are long time users. I also showed her what you were talking about in regards to manually releasing the charge handle letting it down by hand as to hitting the bolt catch and just check to see that is did lock all the way into fire mode, if not to use the forward assist to help. She is the would that cleans most of the guns next to me just to know how everything works, and she does take the bolt carrier apart every time to clean... That is her baby... "You take care of it, it will take care of you". A major thanks from my wife from all your help in educating her to play wisely. I told her this is why I use forum, to learn what I do not know,,,,,,,,,,, yet. NOTE. As long as we / she lets the charge handle down softer and the loads are not max loads the CCI 400's will work? We have 5000 in stock now and we will be looking for the 41's or 450 for later use. I plan of getting a nice long range bolt rifle in 223 later to use, and if need be I will use the 400's in that. I like 7zero1's explanation, and while I primarily shoot a non-AR that does not have a floating firing pin, I also run rounds through an AR here and there. The simplest way to look at it is just run magnum primers and don't worry about it. CCI 450, CCI #41 if youreally want to, Tula SRM or 556M, Federal AR Match - there are lots of choices. Unless you already went out and bought a ton of CCI 400s...just don't. Most of the other options besides the CCI #41s are the same price as the 400s, or within $1-2/K. Is there a reason you seem to want to run the 400s? |
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People can say that they have used whatever primer for many years and never have had a problem. All it takes is one slam fire and you could be regretting not using #41's for the rest of your life. I look upon it as cheap insurance. V LOL this outright laughable. Simple fact mil spec primers have only been on market for last 10-15 years. Slam fires occur mainly from high primers...who's fault is that? Wait for it.............................................Oh I know....the individual who reloaded the ammo! You want primers seated about 0.003 or below the case head. Now, I shot XC HP for a number of years with various platforms....AR M1 Garand M1A I used an awful lot of Winchester primers! Some Fed 210M's...never a problem. And I have reloaded the 223 308 3006 for other platforms like Mini 14 HK91/93 AR10 clone, and FAL. Funny not really an issue. You see when reloaders get started they listen to some Joe Schmoe Reloader or reads of some internet board....LOL and so if they read ....it must be true. Now, I will say anything is possible due to mechanical issues, or poor reloading habits....but for most part you have no worries.... The only issue that I know came about back in early 90's when Winchester quit nickel plating their primers...A lot of people complained of pierced primers....but that was in just about any platform.... |
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Wife started buying primers before I even new we were gonna be reloaders...
We have 5000 CCI 400's in stock now .... I also bought 1500 450 Magnum's today 10% off sale. Unless you already went out and bought a ton of CCI 400s...just don't. Most of the other options besides the CCI #41s are the same price as the 400s, or within $1-2/K. Is there a reason you seem to want to run the 400s? |
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Wife started buying primers before I even new we were gonna be reloaders... We have 5000 CCI 400's in stock now .... I also bought 1500 450 Magnum's today 10% off sale. Unless you already went out and bought a ton of CCI 400s...just don't. Most of the other options besides the CCI #41s are the same price as the 400s, or within $1-2/K. Is there a reason you seem to want to run the 400s? Got it - sorry, missed you saying you had them already. The 450s will do ya good. You may be able to post for a local swap on Armslist or arfcom regional boards, if you want to try to swap the 400s..if not, just stick to loads up to mid-range or so to stay on the 'fewer concerns' side, IMO. Again, lots of people have run them, but then you also get a handful out there having a slammer happen to them, or probably as often, a pierced primer. |
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I was actually thinking of loading both up and save the 450 mag. We have to AR's and if one does not like the 400's then that one can have the 450 mag. In the mean time we can stock up on the 41's or the 450 mag as we find them as we use up the 400's.
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Got it - sorry, missed you saying you had them already. The 450s will do ya good. You may be able to post for a local swap on Armslist or arfcom regional boards, if you want to try to swap the 400s..if not, just stick to loads up to mid-range or so to stay on the 'fewer concerns' side, IMO. Again, lots of people have run them, but then you also get a handful out there having a slammer happen to them, or probably as often, a pierced primer. Quoted:
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Wife started buying primers before I even new we were gonna be reloaders... We have 5000 CCI 400's in stock now .... I also bought 1500 450 Magnum's today 10% off sale. Unless you already went out and bought a ton of CCI 400s...just don't. Most of the other options besides the CCI #41s are the same price as the 400s, or within $1-2/K. Is there a reason you seem to want to run the 400s? Got it - sorry, missed you saying you had them already. The 450s will do ya good. You may be able to post for a local swap on Armslist or arfcom regional boards, if you want to try to swap the 400s..if not, just stick to loads up to mid-range or so to stay on the 'fewer concerns' side, IMO. Again, lots of people have run them, but then you also get a handful out there having a slammer happen to them, or probably as often, a pierced primer. |
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I use 1000's CCI 400 without a problem.  More for us. Let the paranoid be paranoid. Fact is if you wet tumble in ss media it cleans primer pockets and properly seating primers along with common sense general firearm safety as to never point a gun loaded or not at anything you don't intend to shoot you will be fine. In proper arf fashion send them 400 to me for proper disposal their just way too volitile for the masses. 
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I've run through many thousand CCI 400 without an issue. I suspect if you seat primers correctly and keep your BCG clean, you won't have an issue either. Me too. The two mil-spec primers are fairly new in the reloading industry. How did we get along without them in the past? |
| One also couldn't prove that the OOB wouldn't have happened anyway. The force by pin or lug edge needed to ignite a primer isn't that far off between the two primers and the odds of the pin being the cause is close to nothing. I once forgot a trigger spring that caused a runaway and even with the hammer riding the firing pin the whole way it didn't set off the primer OOB. Not that that proves anything either. |
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People can say that they have used whatever primer for many years and never have had a problem. All it takes is one slam fire and you could be regretting not using #41's for the rest of your life. I look upon it as cheap insurance. V And when I started playing with AR-15 back in 1987, all the ammo we had available back then was commercial .223 ammo and random surplus... now,, where is the warning on the box about "slam fire" and soft primers on the box ?? |
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