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Posted: 6/30/2014 7:39:07 PM EDT
| I am wondering with H335 and these projectiles I just got from Weidners and cci 41 primers, what kind of load data am i looking at for something close to 3000 fps for a clone military load. right now i am using 22gr of h335 and getting around 2590-2630 fps. |
| If you want to push 5.56 pressures, you need to be sure that your brass is as consistent as possible, and that you work your load up from a low charge in each rifle you're going to shoot it in. You'll be pushing the raggedy edge of too much pressure. If you haven't loaded 223 before, I don't recommend starting off trying to clone .mil pressures. |
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If you want to push 5.56 pressures, you need to be sure that your brass is as consistent as possible, and that you work your load up from a low charge in each rifle you're going to shoot it in. You'll be pushing the raggedy edge of too much pressure. If you haven't loaded 223 before, I don't recommend starting off trying to clone .mil pressures. Good advise and one reason I always use LC 5.56mm brass that has been visually inspected/resized/trimmed properly. |
| I agree that with your combination that 25 grains of H335 would get you above 3000 in a 20" barrel closer to 3100 fps and near 3000 fps in a 16". Caution going above 25 grains and just watch for pressure if you do. 25 isn't maximum but getting close. Double check your brass and make sure they show no stretching. Overall lengths for 193 55 fmj's usually is 2.250". |
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I used to work up a lot of M193 esque loads with both H335 and BLC-2. There is some lot to lot variation, so I agree, once you get above 25 grains you need to e careful and watch the pressures in your particular rifle. The chamber - 223, Wylde or 5.56mm - makes a difference as well.
Small point of historical clarification however. The whole ammo problem with M193 not meeting the 300 meter penetration requirement started when Remington chose to load the round with a shorter blunter bullet that did not have the same long, slender ogive as the original bullet Stoner designed the cartridge around. Since the bullet ultimately lost more velocity from 0 to 300 meters, it had to be launched at a higher velocity to meet the 300m penetration standard. That same thing still applies to day. Consequently, my preference is to use the 55 gr Hornady FMJ as it is both more accurate than the average 55 gr FMJ and has a better BC, so it sheds less velocity and gives better long rage performance. The velocity specification for M193 was 3165 fps (+/-40 fps, with an SD of <40 fps) at 78' from the muzzle. With a BC of .120 that works out to 3271 fps at the muzzle. At 300m that leaves a remaining velocity of about 2050 fps. In comparison if you launch a 55 gr Hornady FMJ at 3250 fps at the muzzle, you'll get the same remaining velocity at 300m, so you can back off about 25 fps and still get M193 performance. In my experience, anything over 3200 fps is really pushing it with most 55 gr bullets in a 20" barrel, and with some bullets and some lots of powder you won't be able to achieve it without using excessive pressure (whether you see pressure signs or not), particularly in a tight chamber. |
| Be VERY cautious above 24.5g of H335. The intense Arizona heat can push a hot, but within spec, load over the top, like right now. This is why I develop my loads now in the heat so it's not an issue. I worked up to 25.5 grains in LC brass/CCI 450's with 110 degree temps, but backed it down to 24.5 as it was more accurate anyways. |
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Notice all the use of the phrase "in MY rifle I worked up to..."? H335 has been known to be temperature sensitive at times, so working up a load for your rifle in your area will be the best way to go. Good, then this is the right time to be working up a load. |
| Wow thanks for all the help I will definatly take in account the heat. I dont nessecarily have to go past 3000 fps i just want something close to that but accurate. I also came up on 23 pounds of h335 today at 21.99 a pop from a local connection of mine. anyone in the flag staff area i MIGHT be able to help out. |
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So I just got done working up some loads with these xm193 projectiles. This is what I have done so far.
1. 23.0 gr H335 L.C. Brass (for all loads listed) CCI 41 primers COL 2.25 2. 23.2 3. 23.4 4. 23.6 5. 23.8 6. 24.0 7. 24.2 8. 24.4 I have 5 of each. This should give me a good idea of what I can use. Does anyone here seal there primers for their 193 clones for storage or is it even nescessary? If you do what can be used without gumming up the action? |
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I've never seen the need to seal a primer for storage purposes. I keep my loaded rounds in steel ammo cans with intact seals. I have boxes of ammo that have survived over a decade of storage, 4 ft of storm surge into our walk out basement during Irene, and NC humidity. It's all still 100% reliable.
Now, if you want to play navy seal and take your ammo diving with you, then a sealant might be a good idea, and nail polish or a clear lacquer should work fine when used in moderation. ----- I tend to take the opposite approach when doing an initial ladder. I'll load up 10 or 15 rounds at each weight and spread them out a bit more. In .223, I'll normally do .5 grain increments to start and then play with smaller increments around any loads that look promising after the first phase of testing. One really nice 5 shot group can be a fluke, two 5 shot groups tends to tell a much better story about overall accuracy and allows for better comparisons between loads, while three 5 shots groups will give you a much better idea of what velocities your rifle or carbine really seems to like better. Plus 3 five shot groups give you an N of 15 for chronograph data on mean velocity and standard deviation. Ideally, you want a load that both groups well and that has a low standard deviation. An SD of 15 or so is pretty good in a .223. I've seen loads that grouped well at 100 yards but that had an SD of 40-45 fps, and as the ranges get longer the groups really start to get larger, with more vertical dispersion, and if their's any wind, more horizontal dispersion as well. |
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I've never seen the need to seal a primer for storage purposes. I keep my loaded rounds in steel ammo cans with intact seals. I have boxes of ammo that have survived over a decade of storage, 4 ft of storm surge into our walk out basement during Irene, and NC humidity. It's all still 100% reliable. Now, if you want to play navy seal and take your ammo diving with you, then a sealant might be a good idea, and nail polish or a clear lacquer should work fine when used in moderation. ----- I tend to take the opposite approach when doing an initial ladder. I'll load up 10 or 15 rounds at each weight and spread them out a bit more. In .223, I'll normally do .5 grain increments to start and then play with smaller increments around any loads that look promising after the first phase of testing. One really nice 5 shot group can be a fluke, two 5 shot groups tends to tell a much better story about overall accuracy and allows for better comparisons between loads, while three 5 shots groups will give you a much better idea of what velocities your rifle or carbine really seems to like better. Plus 3 five shot groups give you an N of 15 for chronograph data on mean velocity and standard deviation. Ideally, you want a load that both groups well and that has a low standard deviation. An SD of 15 or so is pretty good in a .223. I've seen loads that grouped well at 100 yards but that had an SD of 40-45 fps, and as the ranges get longer the groups really start to get larger, with more vertical dispersion, and if their's any wind, more horizontal dispersion as well. Pertty much my exact opinion as well. I also think you are still loading a bit weak. Yea, everyone is being conservative to make sure you don't blow yourself up. But 25.0 gr is pretty much the default go-to load for this. I would at the least have some in your ladder, you can stop before you fire it if something is amiss, and pressure sign starts getting scary before you get there. |
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With good quality bullets and good primers, you do not need to seal either primer or bullet. The metal-to-metal contact is tight enough at both ends of the case that your rounds would have to be submerged really deep for a long, long time before they had a problem.
GI ammunition has a lot of specifications that don't need to be there, including the bullet and primer sealing. Even though GI M193 has sealed primers and bullet sealant, it's not part of what "makes" it M193. That's bullet weight and design with a given range of muzzle velocities. As an additional complication, bullet sealant WILL change the force needed to start the bullet moving, which can change chamber pressure significantly. Leave that stuff for the "deep prepper" crowd and just work your load up with whatever specific crimp or non-crimp you use on your bullets. |
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This is an exceedingly timely thread, as I just came into 3 lbs of H335.  H335 seems to be available right now. Its right in the correct range for M855 dup loads. BL-C2 is ideal for 55gr M193 loads and thats the powder I prefer. Also if you arent using CCI military primers I highly reccomend some sort of magnum small rifle primer so that it will hold up to the pressures. |
| My personal experience seems to differ regarding the primer sealant. I loaded some .308 147gr fmjs one time to test whether or not I really wanted to seal my reloads. I put a few rounds into a solo cup of water for about 24 hours and then took them out and shot them. More than half were duds after being in the water. Just being in a cup for 24 hours isn't submerged very long or very deep. |
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My personal experience seems to differ regarding the primer sealant. I loaded some .308 147gr fmjs one time to test whether or not I really wanted to seal my reloads. I put a few rounds into a solo cup of water for about 24 hours and then took them out and shot them. More than half were duds after being in the water. Just being in a cup for 24 hours isn't submerged very long or very deep. There was something wrong with a) the bullets, b) how you seated the bullets, c) your powder, d) a combination of those, or e) something else. I'd vote that the bullets weren't really well seated in the case mouths, or that your powder was contaminated. Water has a certain minimum and maximum space within which it can seep through openings through what's called "capillary action." With good neck tension and an intact bullet, water should NOT be able to seep into a case through the case mouth. The primer-pocket joint is even tighter and should be immune to water at anything less than 100ft depth (where water pressure starts to change the physics of capillary action) Did you pull down any of those test rounds to see what the powder looked like? Did the ones that fired perform the way your load should have performed? |
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My personal experience seems to differ regarding the primer sealant. I loaded some .308 147gr fmjs one time to test whether or not I really wanted to seal my reloads. I put a few rounds into a solo cup of water for about 24 hours and then took them out and shot them. More than half were duds after being in the water. Just being in a cup for 24 hours isn't submerged very long or very deep. Here's my own anecdotal experience with water and loaded rounds. I store all my ammo in GI ammo cans. We took 4 ft of storm surge in our walk out basement during Irene and one of the cans leaked (it was missing a hinge pin). After the hurricane, the reloaded 9mm FMJ ammo in that can sat there in a flooded can full of water for a few days until we cleaned put to the point of checking on the ammo in the cans. It all went bang just fine. So, it stood up well to 2 to 4 feet of water for a few hours as well as a few days in an ammo can full of water. The only problem I encountered was a half dozen overpressure loads on some of the rounds that I tumbled for about 24 hours to remove the corrosion that was starting on the outside of the case. My take aways from this are: 1) Be sure the seals and hinges are fully intact on your ammo cans (if they are, your ammo will stay dry to reasonable depths). 2) A sealant is not necessary if the primers properly seated, there are no burrs on the case mouth that might damage the bullet and the bullet is properly seated with adequate neck tension. 3) Regardless of what you read on the internet, whether tumbling loaded ammo is safe or not depends entirely on the type of powder used and the length of time it's tumbled. |
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