Armory Sponsor
Posted: 6/20/2014 1:40:04 PM EDT
| Hey guys I wanna throw something out there for you pros to evaluate. So I have Varget and IMR 4895 and I want to craft a load that I can shoot out to 600 yards. This load doesnt have to be pin point accurate I would be happy if I could hit a white paper plate a few times. It will be shot from a colt 6920. I currently have some Hornady 75gr BTHP projectiles. So far I have only worked up to 23 grains and so far no signs of pressure and they are really accurate at 100 yards. Thanks. |
| The Hodgdon website shows 22.5 grains of Varget as a starting load and 25.0 max. And that's for 223 remington. A 5.56 load is even higher pressure. It's good that you are working up your load, but you have a way to go before you should see any over pressure signs. Keep pushing the velocity up and you should have no problem finding a load to shoot paper plates at that yardage. |
| Ok just got off the reload bench. I worked up to 23.6 grains from 23 gr. I know 23 works without pressure signs so hopefully by the time I run through all the new worked up loads tomorrow there will be no pressure signs, so I can go a little higher. I never really liked to see how hot a shell I can load. I am not chasing velocity but accuracy but I know it will take a slightly hot load to reach my 600 mark. Gonna shoot 200 tomorrow and I will post the results when I am done. |
|
Quoted:
Ok just got off the reload bench. I worked up to 23.6 grains from 23 gr. I know 23 works without pressure signs so hopefully by the time I run through all the new worked up loads tomorrow there will be no pressure signs, so I can go a little higher. I never really liked to see how hot a shell I can load. I am not chasing velocity but accuracy but I know it will take a slightly hot load to reach my 600 mark. Gonna shoot 200 tomorrow and I will post the results when I am done. It occurs to me to ask . . . what would you do if the first few of your 200 rounds showed pressure signs? At 23.6, they shouldn't . . . but here's the point. Why not make 5 rounds at 23.6, 23.8. 24.0, etc up to the book max. Test them for pressure and accuracy. OK, bring another 100 rounds along for kicks . . . but don't put yourself in a position where you may have to pull apart 195 rounds. |
|
Colt 6920 has a 16" barrel so you'll be running out of steam at 600 yards. That being said, 23.0 grains of H4895 is at maximum when using 77 grain Sierra Match Kings. I would not go higher with that powder. You should get good accuracy with H4895 using something between 22.5 to 23.0 grains. Best accuracy is much more important than velocity when shooting mid-range.
Varget should allow you to go as high as 24.0 grains with 77 grain SMK's seated @ 2.250". Sweet spots around 23.5 to 24.0 grains is about as high as I would go. Most reloading manuals list 23.5 grains as maximum with this weight bullet in .223. Hodgdon's web data is HOTTER than an other source across the board. I doubt anyone loads 25.0 grains of Varget behind a 77 SMK w/o pressure problems. Loads developed in a long throated bolt action can take much higher powder charges without "showing" pressure compared to semi-auto actions. Know that when reviewing online data. Both H4895 and Varget are great choices with this bullet. My go to load with 75 grain Hornady hpbt match bullets was 23.5 grains of N540 from my bolt action M70. It only ran 2720 fps from a 26" barrel but hammered the X and ten ring. Sierra's, Nosler's and Hornady's data for 75/77 grain bullets is very very close to each other when referencing their manuals. |
|
Take a look here:
http://www.radomski.us/njhp/cart_tech.htm For Varget, 24-24.5 gr is what works for me and thousands of other HP shooters. For high pressure loads I suggest the CCI milspec or CCI-450 primer or the Wolf/Tula KVB556 or KVB223M primers. |
|
Quoted:
It occurs to me to ask . . . what would you do if the first few of your 200 rounds showed pressure signs? At 23.6, they shouldn't . . . but here's the point. Why not make 5 rounds at 23.6, 23.8. 24.0, etc up to the book max. Test them for pressure and accuracy. OK, bring another 100 rounds along for kicks . . . but don't put yourself in a position where you may have to pull apart 195 rounds. Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok just got off the reload bench. I worked up to 23.6 grains from 23 gr. I know 23 works without pressure signs so hopefully by the time I run through all the new worked up loads tomorrow there will be no pressure signs, so I can go a little higher. I never really liked to see how hot a shell I can load. I am not chasing velocity but accuracy but I know it will take a slightly hot load to reach my 600 mark. Gonna shoot 200 tomorrow and I will post the results when I am done. It occurs to me to ask . . . what would you do if the first few of your 200 rounds showed pressure signs? At 23.6, they shouldn't . . . but here's the point. Why not make 5 rounds at 23.6, 23.8. 24.0, etc up to the book max. Test them for pressure and accuracy. OK, bring another 100 rounds along for kicks . . . but don't put yourself in a position where you may have to pull apart 195 rounds. Well I have seen how they shoot at 23.3 grains and had no pressure signs but your right I should of shot some at 23.6 first. Any way I shot today but only at 100 yards. With an Eotech 512 Ii was able to shoot a 1 inch group. I wonder if these will be sufficient enough for 600 yards and I wonder what the hold over will be. |
|
Quoted:
Ok so shot at 200 yards today and 23 grains of varget was the most accurate. Shot about a 3 inch group with an Eotech. I think thats pretty good for a red dot. I was shooting off sandbags and the velocity was around 2605 fps. Yeah I think so too. Is the dot even 3" or less in size at 200? |
|
Quoted:
Ok so shot at 200 yards today and 23 grains of varget was the most accurate. Shot about a 3 inch group with an Eotech. I think thats pretty good for a red dot. I was shooting off sandbags and the velocity was around 2605 fps. I shoot berger 82s at 2650 fps and need 15 minutes elevation to get from 100 yd to 600 yd. With the hornady 75 at 2600 fps you'll probably need 16-17 minutes. You may need less depending on how far above sea level you are. |
|
Quoted:
I shoot berger 82s at 2650 fps and need 15 minutes elevation to get from 100 yd to 600 yd. With the hornady 75 at 2600 fps you'll probably need 16-17 minutes. You may need less depending on how far above sea level you are. Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok so shot at 200 yards today and 23 grains of varget was the most accurate. Shot about a 3 inch group with an Eotech. I think thats pretty good for a red dot. I was shooting off sandbags and the velocity was around 2605 fps. I shoot berger 82s at 2650 fps and need 15 minutes elevation to get from 100 yd to 600 yd. With the hornady 75 at 2600 fps you'll probably need 16-17 minutes. You may need less depending on how far above sea level you are. I am also using a 50 yard zero. |
|
Quoted:
Ok so shot at 200 yards today and 23 grains of varget was the most accurate. Shot about a 3 inch group with an Eotech. I think thats pretty good for a red dot. I was shooting off sandbags and the velocity was around 2605 fps. You're going to want more speed after the first time you shoot in any breeze at 600 yards. Control what you can; the vertical dispersion. Minimize the effect of what you can't control; that is the wind. When getting near maximum charge weights with 77 grain MK's, dial the charge increment back and sneak up on the maximum charge, that bullet jacks the pressure up quickly. |
|
I have a 14.5" for home defense and an 18" for long range. Don't try to cover everything from cqb to 600 yards with one rifle. I've been using 69 grain smk's with 24.2 grains of h4895 for an average muzzle velocity of 2777 fps. I was new to reloading and it was the first load I ever developed. It is an accurate load for me and I used it to place 4th on the moa all day challenge for the spr division on this forum. When I developed that load I only loaded rounds at 24.0 24.2 24.5 and 24.7 to be safe. The 24.2 load was so good I didn't try anything above 24.7 grains. I've shot several 5 shot groups at 600 yards that were around 0.8 moa. That load was running out of steam around 700 yards although I had made hits out as far as 770 yards on more than one occasion.
Just yesterday I decided to load up some rounds at 25.0 25.2 and 25.5 grains to see if I could get good enough accuracy with more velocity to extend my range. I was pleasantly surprised that 25.5 grains produced a 5 shot group with 4 in the same hole and one flyer that I called as soon as I pulled the trigger. The velocity for that round was averaging 2976 fps. Running the numbers it should keep me above subsonic out to about 850 yards as well as a lot flatter trajectory and small improvement in the wind. Velocity is your friend for long range shooting as long as you get reasonable accuracy. You are going to lose a lot of velocity with a 14.5" barrel compared to an 18" or 20". Sometimes the best load at 100 yards isn't the best long range load. For example if a load has a muzzle velocity of 2777 and shoots 3/4" moa on average at 100 yards and another load is 2976 muzzle velocity and shoots 0.8" moa at 100 yards I would still choose the 2976 load for long range shooting. Your ability to make a wind call and range a target will have more of an impact on whether or not you can make first round hits on a paper plate at 600 yards than a slightly more accurate load at 100 yards. I hope that made sense it's early in the morning...lol |
|
Quoted:
Well I wanted a shorter carbine for running classes. I just want to be able to hit a paper plate or similar in size at 600 yards not shoot super accurate groups. Is the Bcm 20 in rifle length standard barrel capable of shooting 600 yards accuratly. Hitting a paper plate sized target at 600 yds consistently, is something I would consider super accurate. Just for reference the x-ring on an NRA 600 yd target is 6" wide and the outer of the black is 36". |
|
Quoted:
Well I wanted a shorter carbine for running classes. I just want to be able to hit a paper plate or similar in size at 600 yards not shoot super accurate groups. Is the Bcm 20 in rifle length standard barrel capable of shooting 600 yards accuratly. I don't know who makes bcm's barrels, and I don't know what you would consider accurate, but in my opinion there are much better options out there. Rock River match barrels (uses air gauged Wilson blanks), Armalite match barrels (I believe they use Lothar walther blanks), and even dpms match barrels are going to deliver good performance at 600 if you want to use a big name brand and not spend a ton of money. Krieger gets the nod for the best accuracy in the high power circles if you don't mind spending $450 on just a barrel. For what it's worth I'm hanging with the top shooters at the high power matches with my factory armalite barrel, and usually within a couple of points of the top score at the 600 yard line. The guys that are winning at 600 at the matches I go to are using White Oak and Krieger. |
|
Quoted:
I have a 14.5" for home defense and an 18" for long range. Don't try to cover everything from cqb to 600 yards with one rifle. I've been using 69 grain smk's with 24.2 grains of h4895 for an average muzzle velocity of 2777 fps. I was new to reloading and it was the first load I ever developed. It is an accurate load for me and I used it to place 4th on the moa all day challenge for the spr division on this forum. When I developed that load I only loaded rounds at 24.0 24.2 24.5 and 24.7 to be safe. The 24.2 load was so good I didn't try anything above 24.7 grains. I've shot several 5 shot groups at 600 yards that were around 0.8 moa. That load was running out of steam around 700 yards although I had made hits out as far as 770 yards on more than one occasion. Just yesterday I decided to load up some rounds at 25.0 25.2 and 25.5 grains to see if I could get good enough accuracy with more velocity to extend my range. I was pleasantly surprised that 25.5 grains produced a 5 shot group with 4 in the same hole and one flyer that I called as soon as I pulled the trigger. The velocity for that round was averaging 2976 fps. Running the numbers it should keep me above subsonic out to about 850 yards as well as a lot flatter trajectory and small improvement in the wind. Velocity is your friend for long range shooting as long as you get reasonable accuracy. You are going to lose a lot of velocity with a 14.5" barrel compared to an 18" or 20". Sometimes the best load at 100 yards isn't the best long range load. For example if a load has a muzzle velocity of 2777 and shoots 3/4" moa on average at 100 yards and another load is 2976 muzzle velocity and shoots 0.8" moa at 100 yards I would still choose the 2976 load for long range shooting. Your ability to make a wind call and range a target will have more of an impact on whether or not you can make first round hits on a paper plate at 600 yards than a slightly more accurate load at 100 yards. I hope that made sense it's early in the morning...lol Makes perfect sense thanks. Thats awesome, 770 yards. Thats good shit. |
|
Quoted:
I don't know who makes bcm's barrels, and I don't know what you would consider accurate, but in my opinion there are much better options out there. Rock River match barrels (uses air gauged Wilson blanks), Armalite match barrels (I believe they use Lothar walther blanks), and even dpms match barrels are going to deliver good performance at 600 if you want to use a big name brand and not spend a ton of money. Krieger gets the nod for the best accuracy in the high power circles if you don't mind spending $450 on just a barrel. For what it's worth I'm hanging with the top shooters at the high power matches with my factory armalite barrel, and usually within a couple of points of the top score at the 600 yard line. The guys that are winning at 600 at the matches I go to are using White Oak and Krieger. Quoted:
Quoted:
Well I wanted a shorter carbine for running classes. I just want to be able to hit a paper plate or similar in size at 600 yards not shoot super accurate groups. Is the Bcm 20 in rifle length standard barrel capable of shooting 600 yards accuratly. I don't know who makes bcm's barrels, and I don't know what you would consider accurate, but in my opinion there are much better options out there. Rock River match barrels (uses air gauged Wilson blanks), Armalite match barrels (I believe they use Lothar walther blanks), and even dpms match barrels are going to deliver good performance at 600 if you want to use a big name brand and not spend a ton of money. Krieger gets the nod for the best accuracy in the high power circles if you don't mind spending $450 on just a barrel. For what it's worth I'm hanging with the top shooters at the high power matches with my factory armalite barrel, and usually within a couple of points of the top score at the 600 yard line. The guys that are winning at 600 at the matches I go to are using White Oak and Krieger. Ya I dont know if I am ever looking to build a match gun. If my 6920 or my new BCM upper can hit lets say a man sized silouhet at 600 1 or 2 times I will be happy. Maybe someday I will get into a match gun. How accurate is a BCM 20 in upper going to be? |
|
Quoted:
Ya I dont know if I am ever looking to build a match gun. If my 6920 or my new BCM upper can hit lets say a man sized silouhet at 600 1 or 2 times I will be happy. Maybe someday I will get into a match gun. How accurate is a BCM 20 in upper going to be? It really depends on the barrel. Can you make hits at 600 with your 6920 or a basic bcm that holds maybe 1 to 1 1/2 moa? Yea, for sure. Are you going to shoot groups at 600 that are equal to a purpose built match rifle? No. But honestly, if you aren't shooting for score, who cares? |
|
If you want long range accuracy it costs more money than simply buying a standard chrome lined barrel. Consider building a dedicated upper using a SPR profile 18" or DMR profile 20" barrel. You'll need a free float tube and a Rock River match trigger a minimum upgrades. There are plenty of <$300 stainless steel barrels that will serve you well.
SPR barrels are available from White Oak Armament and Rainier Arms. 75/77 grain match bullets completes the deal. Excellent accuracy can be found from some issue barrels but it's the luck of the draw. One kid shot excellent groups at local tournaments using a Bushmaster's CMP issue rifle. |
Armory Sponsor