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Posted: 5/4/2014 5:45:21 PM EDT
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thought I'd snag a discount upper from PSA and mount a cheap Mueller on it for a fun project
shot it for the second time today 200yds, stock trigger, off a bag 69gr Sierra BTHP's, Varget, range brass, Federal primers good starting point, but certainly no bolt rifle 
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Quoted:
NOW we're gettin' somewhere! Windy today, but the budget 1/7 twist AR shot a great group at 200yds. Of course, there had to be the obligatory flier. :o I do believe I have found a load it likes - 77gr Sierra BTHP over 24.7gr of Varget. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Targets/artarget277gr200yds_zps74a9977b.jpg Which upper is it? |
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Quoted:
NOW we're gettin' somewhere! Windy today, but the budget 1/7 twist AR shot a great group at 200yds. Of course, there had to be the obligatory flier. :o I do believe I have found a load it likes - 77gr Sierra BTHP over 24.7gr of Varget. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Targets/artarget277gr200yds_zps74a9977b.jpg Awesome job again, think of the components you can buy with the savings on the rifle. The bonus is the performance. 
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Thanks, I load single shots which helps me to slow down and focus on each shot.
Palmetto State Armory I think they're sold out now, it was this one: "PTAC 16" M4 Melonite 1:7" 5.56 NATO SS12G2 Upper w/ Bolt Carrier Group and Charging Handle". They're most often labelled "junk" here. Maybe I just got lucky :) |
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they must've renamed it http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/AR15/dfbf1af8-6046-4362-8c22-9e86b3a1366f_zps5d6512e3.jpg If I'm not mistaken... The Nikon mount is a 20 MOA UNIT... GREAT results OP |
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Quoted:
NOW we're gettin' somewhere! Windy today, but the budget 1/7 twist AR shot a great group at 200yds. Of course, there had to be the obligatory flier. :o I do believe I have found a load it likes - 77gr Sierra BTHP over 24.7gr of Varget. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Targets/artarget277gr200yds_zps74a9977b.jpg What makes it a flyer? Did you flinch or is it just because it isn't in the expected group? What is the overall group size? |
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Quoted:
What makes it a flyer? Did you flinch or is it just because it isn't in the expected group? What is the overall group size? Quoted:
Quoted:
NOW we're gettin' somewhere! Windy today, but the budget 1/7 twist AR shot a great group at 200yds. Of course, there had to be the obligatory flier. :o I do believe I have found a load it likes - 77gr Sierra BTHP over 24.7gr of Varget. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Targets/artarget277gr200yds_zps74a9977b.jpg What makes it a flyer? Did you flinch or is it just because it isn't in the expected group? What is the overall group size? I have no clue. I knew I'd put four together pretty close, so I took the 5th shot and, sure enough, it was a flier. I put my head down on my arm and just shook it in light-hearted disgust. The group of four measured .71" with my calipers. And if you don't trust what I've posted, you're welcome to check with Old_Painless as a character reference. He's a character. :) He's one of my shooting instructors, but gets pissed when I'm at the range and call him during his afternoon naps. :o I'm a total noob at this "AR at 200yds" thing and had no expectations. All I've ever shot at 200yds is a Savage bolt gun with a bull barrel in .223 with another Mueller "Eradicator". The upper was $399 shipped, so I took a chance on it. Regarding the wind, just Google the local weather reports from Beaumont, TX and check the wind. It's been layin' it down for three days now, 10-15 all day. Sold this Savage because it got kinda boring. ;) 
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If Old_Painless is your character reference, that's good enough for me. For me, it's easy to get that one flier in a good group when I lose concentration. Just takes practice and paying attention to what your doing. Having confidence in yourself also helps. Good luck
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Nice job op! It looks like your loads are definitely working with that gun. The thing that is hard to account for is how good the shooter is so it looks like you did your part as well. There is an moa all day challenge in the general discussion that got a little controversial in the last couple days. I would love to see you enter it with your low dollar build just to stir it up a little more. I believe your character reference has some entries in multiple categories of the challenge so he can help you out with that as well.
I'm starting to believe with modern weapons the gap has really been narrowed between the best barrels and average barrels. I think that gap can be over come in a lot of cases with high quality handloads and a good shooter. |
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So you called it a flyer after you saw the target?
My question was how big is the group WITH the flyer? 1.5"? 2"? Quoted:
I have no clue. I knew I'd put four together pretty close, so I took the 5th shot and, sure enough, it was a flier. I put my head down on my arm and just shook it in light-hearted disgust. The group of four measured .71" with my calipers. And if you don't trust what I've posted, you're welcome to check with Old_Painless as a character reference. He's a character. :) He's one of my shooting instructors, but gets pissed when I'm at the range and call him during his afternoon naps. :o I'm a total noob at this "AR at 200yds" thing and had no expectations. All I've ever shot at 200yds is a Savage bolt gun with a bull barrel in .223 with another Mueller "Eradicator". The upper was $399 shipped, so I took a chance on it. Regarding the wind, just Google the local weather reports from Beaumont, TX and check the wind. It's been layin' it down for three days now, 10-15 all day. Sold this Savage because it got kinda boring. ;) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Savage%20M12/78f6d9f8-2861-4d01-990a-ed85a3532e58_zps0654891b.jpg Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
NOW we're gettin' somewhere! Windy today, but the budget 1/7 twist AR shot a great group at 200yds. Of course, there had to be the obligatory flier. :o I do believe I have found a load it likes - 77gr Sierra BTHP over 24.7gr of Varget. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Targets/artarget277gr200yds_zps74a9977b.jpg What makes it a flyer? Did you flinch or is it just because it isn't in the expected group? What is the overall group size? I have no clue. I knew I'd put four together pretty close, so I took the 5th shot and, sure enough, it was a flier. I put my head down on my arm and just shook it in light-hearted disgust. The group of four measured .71" with my calipers. And if you don't trust what I've posted, you're welcome to check with Old_Painless as a character reference. He's a character. :) He's one of my shooting instructors, but gets pissed when I'm at the range and call him during his afternoon naps. :o I'm a total noob at this "AR at 200yds" thing and had no expectations. All I've ever shot at 200yds is a Savage bolt gun with a bull barrel in .223 with another Mueller "Eradicator". The upper was $399 shipped, so I took a chance on it. Regarding the wind, just Google the local weather reports from Beaumont, TX and check the wind. It's been layin' it down for three days now, 10-15 all day. Sold this Savage because it got kinda boring. ;) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Savage%20M12/78f6d9f8-2861-4d01-990a-ed85a3532e58_zps0654891b.jpg |
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Yeah, I don't really know the precise definition of a flier.
That's just what I call the one shot that screws up my groups and seems to occur every time I get a tight one going. 
With the flier I think it's about 1.6-1.75", but what's the correct way to measure groups anyway? I'm new to all this rifle accuracy stuff, just mainly shoot pistols at 50yds. 
I use these for a rest and put the pistol grip butt on the sandbag. I probably need something that would cradle the stock, but since I shoot left handed the stock won't rest on the bench. 
Can't get the leather rest thing to work with the AR folding stock. 
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You measure outside to outside of the furthest apart holes and then subtract the diameter of the bullet you are using in your case .224
Usually when you shoot if the flyer is your fault you will know it as soon as you break the shot especially if you are good enough to shoot sub moa with an AR based weapon at 200 yards like you are doing. Once in a while I get a flyer and it felt good with my fundamentals, but most of the time when I get a flyer I know it was me. |
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Quoted:
So, what's considered an acceptable trigger weight for a lower that used for shooting both targets and security duty (for lack of a better phrase)? Right now it's averaging a little over 7lbs. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/AR15/27b90dfc-c22c-450a-b278-df979be1c198_zpsa0016b76.jpg I'd leave that alone personally. You're doing fine and you don't need to change anything. Don't fall into the group of guys who tinker with everything on their budget gun then end up ruining a good thing. Just shoot it more and it will break in. |
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1.6"-0.224 is 1.38. That's just under 0.70"@100 yards. A flyer would be you flinching, jerking the trigger, something you can say you did to cause the bullet to fly outside the expected group. I think a lot of people call anything outside their expected group a flyer so it makes the groupings better. I'm not in that group personally but I haven't been out shooting for accuracy for a while due to buying a house
Quoted:
Yeah, I don't really know the precise definition of a flier. That's just what I call the one shot that screws up my groups and seems to occur every time I get a tight one going.
With the flier I think it's about 1.6-1.75", but what's the correct way to measure groups anyway? I'm new to all this rifle accuracy stuff, just mainly shoot pistols at 50yds. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Targets/b3f4d51a-a1b6-4114-ab95-2d5acfc2163e_zpsc68d894b.jpg I use these for a rest and put the pistol grip butt on the sandbag. I probably need something that would cradle the stock, but since I shoot left handed the stock won't rest on the bench. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Targets/3cf17bc3-5d37-4283-aa92-38cabee02fd8_zpse452c60a.jpg Can't get the leather rest thing to work with the AR folding stock. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Ruger%201022%20Target/0570b04e-045c-4293-bdd5-39f48a0adb84_zpsd3d4845d.jpg |
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Quoted:
So, what's considered an acceptable trigger weight for a lower that used for shooting both targets and security duty (for lack of a better phrase)? Right now it's averaging a little over 7lbs. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/AR15/27b90dfc-c22c-450a-b278-df979be1c198_zpsa0016b76.jpg Service Rifle triggers can weigh no less than 4.5lbs, which is lighter than "factory" and heavier than "match". To me, that's slightly heavy for shooting off the bench and a bit light for "security duty". There's always compromise, but I'd say about 4.5 - 5.5 is "preferable". As long as it breaks clean, weight can be adapted to for precision work. For example, I won the 2009 M16 EIC match at Camp Perry when they still used M16s, and during the SAFS class they demonstrated the trigger weight on them by holding one up by the trigger. The first time I dryfired I thought I had the safety on. |
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All good advice.
Just want to thank you for taking the time to school a noob. I jumped into that MOA contest thread, and this is going to be fun. One more question: Now that I've found a load that works well in my rifle out to 200yds, does that automatically mean that same load will work as well at 100yds? |
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Doc, a "flier" is what most people call a shot that goes well outside a group. However, when we are shooting groups, we count them all.
As a great golfer was once quoted when asked what to do if his ball landed in a bad place to hit it from, "If you don't want to hit it out of there, don't hit it into there."
Fliers or not, you shot it, so it's in your group. It counts and must be measured. I'm going to get with you next week and see what we can do. |
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One thing I've found with flyers is they're usually just letting the truth poke out.
I still occasionally pull a shot and I know 100% when I do. I count them but make note and further testing shows me if the load or I'm to blame. Many times I've shot a 5 shot group with 4 in almost the same hole and single shot out in orbit. Shooting same load into a 10 shot group revealed that the load was not what it appeared to be. I read a REALLY good article on groups and averages a while back and it really opened my eyes. I'll try to find it. |
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Thanks
My definition of a flyer is, as stated above, "the one bad shot I made that spoiled all the rest of the group". I'm already a pro at that. 
I re-set my scope at 100yds today and shot the 5, one inch targets called for in the contest. Gave up on the third sheet of targets. Shot four groups with four shots sub-MOA, then pulled one out of each group to spoil the rest of them. All four shots out of the tight group were all my doing. This is going to be more of a challenge than I thought. 7lb trigger is the next thing I'm going to focus on. |
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Quoted:
Thanks My definition of a flyer is, as stated above, "the one bad shot I made that spoiled all the rest of the group". I'm already a pro at that.
I re-set my scope at 100yds today and shot the 5, one inch targets called for in the contest. Gave up on the third sheet of targets. Shot four groups with four shots sub-MOA, then pulled one out of each group to spoil the rest of them. All four shots out of the tight group were all my doing. This is going to be more of a challenge than I thought. 7lb trigger is the next thing I'm going to focus on. 7lb trigger is manageable if you are use to it, but a nice trigger will definitely help. The consistency of the trigger is a big deal along with being use to the trigger. If you don't want to spend a lot of money the ALG ACT trigger with the jp reliability spring set is a nice setup for the money. I've got a few guns with that setup it has less creep, is more consistent than a standard mil spec, and gets your pull weight down to 5 lb or less. With that said I do like my Timney trigger better than the ALG's that I have. I had mama make me up a rear bag with some blue jean material filled with stuffed toy beads and tested it at the range today. The wind was 15 mph from my 9 O'clock position and it moved my groups about an inch to the right of my zero. My groups were not as good as the last time I was out without a rear bag and near zero wind. Keep that in mind any significant wind 10 mph+ will effect your groups even at 100 yards when you are focused on really getting your group sizes down. I would think if your loads are good at 200 they would be good at 100, but it may not work that way the other way around. |
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