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Posted: 11/13/2013 4:30:51 PM EDT
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While shooting some 7.62x39 I loaded yesterday I came upon a problem. The Red dot on my AR15 almost completely covered my target so needless to say my groups were less than stellar. On my drive home I started thinking about my problem and I came up with what I think is an acceptable way to measure group size so i want to run it by you guys. Would it be wrong to measure the group size and then divide by 4 since my red dot has a 4 MOA reticle and I was shooting at 100yds?
The example below measures 3.792 MOA so if I divide by 4 I get .948 MOA which seems more acceptable to me. 
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| To shoot for groups at 100 yards with a 4 moa red dot, use a 5 inch round black circle for a target. Hold the red dot in the middle of the circle with 1/2 inch of black forming a ring surrounding your red dot. This allows one to shoot up to the capability of the shooter, rifle, ammo combination, as well as precisely zero the optic. |
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Quoted:
To shoot for groups at 100 yards with a 4 moa red dot, use a 5 inch round black circle for a target. Hold the red dot in the middle of the circle with 1/2 inch of black forming a ring surrounding your red dot. This allows one to shoot up to the capability of the shooter, rifle, ammo combination, as well as precisely zero the optic. I'll remember to print out some targets before I go to the range next time, the targets I used were all i had in my range bag. |
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Why not if I shot a 4 MOA group it would still be 1 MOA if I was using a 4 MOA red dot at 100 yds....right or am I confused? Quoted:
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That isn't quite how it works. Why not if I shot a 4 MOA group it would still be 1 MOA if I was using a 4 MOA red dot at 100 yds....right or am I confused? Nope. You get what is on the target. You get what you get. |
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Quoted:
Why not if I shot a 4 MOA group it would still be 1 MOA if I was using a 4 MOA red dot at 100 yds....right or am I confused? Quoted:
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That isn't quite how it works. Why not if I shot a 4 MOA group it would still be 1 MOA if I was using a 4 MOA red dot at 100 yds....right or am I confused? No and you are confused. Measure outside to inside at all points, A zero moa. would equal the diameter of the bullet. |
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Nope. You get what is on the target. You get what you get. Quoted:
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That isn't quite how it works. Why not if I shot a 4 MOA group it would still be 1 MOA if I was using a 4 MOA red dot at 100 yds....right or am I confused? Nope. You get what is on the target. You get what you get. ^^^^^^ this |
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Are you a politician?
LOL - sorry to be harsh. But anyway no you get what you get. The problem with a RDO is not the MOA of the dot but it's the flare and fuzz that makes it less precise. One tip is to turn down the brightness until it is just visible, also as others have said select targets to make it easier. |
| It IS possible to shoot groups smaller than the size of your dot - I shot a sub-4" group at 200 yards with a 2-moa Aimpoint. The dot is no different than a crosshair reticle - you hold it in the same spot on the target every time to shoot small groups. Now, that's hard if your dot is larger than the aiming point on the target, so target choice is important, but you don't get credit for using a red dot when measuring group size. |
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Nope. A red dot is not an instrument for precision shooting, it's for quick and simple shooting. They are completely unsuitable for accuracy work with a rifle, and not too hot on a pistol. Sort of. They are not optimal for precision shooting and they come with problems. Good iron sights are better. However the idea that "You just can't shoot accurately with a dot" is not true. Molon had an old post that covered this. Turning the dot down so it doesn't flare out is a way to mitigate one of the more significant problems. |
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If you want to shoot well with a larger dot, don't put the dot on the target.
Pick put the top edge ( centered up ) of your dot, to the bottom edge of the target ( also centered up ), and try to keep the edges together. That way you aren't covering your target. The other option for a reflex sight for accuracy is to go with a smaller dot, like the Eotech which you can center on the target, or use the method above, or like I am using now, the M21 Meprolight, with the triangle reticle, and use the tip of the triangle for precision. I've shot 4"- 41/2" groups with the Eotech , unmagnified at 300 yards , 5 shots with that method. Some groups would hav been better if not for a called flier. Standard 9" paper plates at 400 are easy as well. I couldn't do it with an Aimpoint with a 4moa dot to save my life though. I have yet to shoot the M21 at the farm yet, but hope to soon. It should work better than the Eotech, since the the tip is crisp and stands out really well. All those were prone, using sandbags. Pretty stable platform. |
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If you want to shoot well with a larger dot, don't put the dot on the target. Pick put the top edge ( centered up ) of your dot, to the bottom edge of the target ( also centered up ), and try to keep the edges together. That way you aren't covering your target. Yep - all you need is a way to ensure that you're aiming at a consistent point on the target. After that it's all position and ability, just like when you're using a crosshair reticle. |
| The solution is simple really, shoot at metal targets, have fun, and forget about sweating the small stuff, ie, shooting paper targets expecting tiny groups with a 4 MOA reticle red dot style scope that is better suited to shooting minute-of-man. If you want to shoot for precision and measure your groups, you will do much better with a scope designed for precision shooting. |
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Sort of. They are not optimal for precision shooting and they come with problems. Good iron sights are better. However the idea that "You just can't shoot accurately with a dot" is not true. Molon had an old post that covered this. Turning the dot down so it doesn't flare out is a way to mitigate one of the more significant problems. Quoted:
Quoted:
Nope. A red dot is not an instrument for precision shooting, it's for quick and simple shooting. They are completely unsuitable for accuracy work with a rifle, and not too hot on a pistol. Sort of. They are not optimal for precision shooting and they come with problems. Good iron sights are better. However the idea that "You just can't shoot accurately with a dot" is not true. Molon had an old post that covered this. Turning the dot down so it doesn't flare out is a way to mitigate one of the more significant problems. You'll have to define "accurate" and "precision". They aren't the same thing. But a "not optimal" dot sight doesn't come close for precision shooting, and a red dot that covers the aim point will not suffice. The target posted above includes the secret to using a red dot to the best it can provide on that target; there are cross hairs on the target that can be used to split the dot into equal sectors. That's the inverse of using a cross hair to split a bull. Either the aiming point has to be larger than the dot so they can lined up concentrically, or some other means of alignment is required. |
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Quoted:
Sort of. They are not optimal for precision shooting and they come with problems. Good iron sights are better. However the idea that "You just can't shoot accurately with a dot" is not true. Molon had an old post that covered this. Turning the dot down so it doesn't flare out is a way to mitigate one of the more significant problems. Quoted:
Quoted:
Nope. A red dot is not an instrument for precision shooting, it's for quick and simple shooting. They are completely unsuitable for accuracy work with a rifle, and not too hot on a pistol. Sort of. They are not optimal for precision shooting and they come with problems. Good iron sights are better. However the idea that "You just can't shoot accurately with a dot" is not true. Molon had an old post that covered this. Turning the dot down so it doesn't flare out is a way to mitigate one of the more significant problems. Here is Molon's post if anyone is interested in reading it. link I can accurately hit a 12" metal plate a 200 yards all day with my AR that has the red dot on it but I was trying to shoot small groups (precision) with the wrong target size and optic....lesson learned. |
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