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Posted: 4/5/2013 10:31:21 AM EDT
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As I loaded my first rounds yesterday(truly first for myself) , I took three, chambered them to make sure they would cycle , so far so good until I measured them
and .015 - .025 of setback ! I start to apply more crimp and rechecking even up to the point of creasing into the bullet with just slightly less setback. At that point it dawned on me that this is simply target ammo which is seldom loaded and chambered repeatedly unlike SD ammo. Just curious if I'm missing something or it is what it is with reloads. For the record I was loading .45acp 1x fired casing , 185gr. jhp using a Lee factory crimp die , COAL 1.212-1.215 I realize it shouldn't be an issue but if I recall correctly (searched to no avail) it doesn't typically cause dramatic pressure spikes until setback is approaching .125 For those that may request pics I attempted to w/iphone4 , too grainy to even consider posting. BTW I went to the only range in my area that allows reloads and it was crawling with LEO only SNIPERCRAFT apparently from all over Florida & Georgia UPDATE: For those who have an interest, fired the slightly setback rounds (47) today and all is well. The lowest powered ones( 6.1-6.3gr.) , most of them didn't cycle well in a G21, Rounds charged with 6.7,7.0,7.5gr. worked flawlessly. The 1911 digested all rounds great. I'm somewhat surprised as my Loaded(1911) is finicky with some ammo. As far as pressure signs there was some sooting on all the cases on approx. one-third of the case circumference beginning around 3/16" from the web to the mouth (low pressure sign). In the future I will concentrate more on case mouth dimension after sizing , after belling (this is where I must have erred) , and after seating. NOW, a BIG THANK YOU  to all the advice AND any criticism , helpful info is why I am and will continue to be a member here .
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Any setback is too much, and you will not have it if your taper crimp die is properly adjusted. Did you follow the directions that came with the die?  Of course I did, even watched the video by Leeprecision a few times , but .015 in a round that is chambered one time ? 
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I know you *think* you followed the instructions . . . but there are only three possibilities. You didn't follow the instructions correctly, or you didn't set enough crimp because you didn't test until you chambered . . . or the die is defective.
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Any setback is too much, and you will not have it if your taper crimp die is properly adjusted. Did you follow the directions that came with the die? Of course I did, even watched the video by Leeprecision a few times , but .015 in a round that is chambered one time ? |
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Any setback is too much, and you will not have it if your taper crimp die is properly adjusted. Did you follow the directions that came with the die? Of course I did, even watched the video by Leeprecision a few times , but .015 in a round that is chambered one time ? Something is definitely wrong, so you need to figure it out.
Probably silly to ask, but you did resize the case, right? 
Edit: And with the correct die? |
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Any setback is too much, and you will not have it if your taper crimp die is properly adjusted. Did you follow the directions that came with the die? Of course I did, even watched the video by Leeprecision a few times , but .015 in a round that is chambered one time ? Something is definitely wrong, so you need to figure it out.
Probably silly to ask, but you did resize the case, right?
Edit: And with the correct die? Yes , resizing was the first step along with decapping, also apologize for the EDIT : initial gun was a 1911 , just did a check in my G21 , setback is .005 , I suspect the obvious difference is the design of the feed ramps: Glock vs. 1911 (bone stock Loaded BTW) . Thanks for the input so far, keep it coming , I'd like to get a solution if this is not the norm , however I will admit EDIT: correct die it is the one that came in the case ; post sizing/factory crimp. I am 3-4 beers deep and counting, so if I'm lax in my responses I will catch up tomorrow as it is almost my normal bedtime as I go to work around 1:00 am(ish) Correct die ? ,it is the one that came in the case ; post sizing/factory crimp |
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I know you *think* you followed the instructions . . . but there are only three possibilities. You didn't follow the instructions correctly, or you didn't set enough crimp because you didn't test until you chambered . . . or the die is defective.
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Any setback is too much, and you will not have it if your taper crimp die is properly adjusted. Did you follow the directions that came with the die? Of course I did, even watched the video by Leeprecision a few times , but .015 in a round that is chambered one time ? Actually I checked with a caliper and a L.E. Wilson case gage.As I stated in the original post I eventually cranked down approx. 2 turns until the bullet began to crease at which point setback was less but still prevalent |
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Bad news when this kind of thing happens. This is from multiple rechamberings, you shouldn't have any setback from only one time. http://www.wingman26.com/images/shooting/kb-waiting-to-happen-small.jpg Now bear in mind I'm talking .025 (max) and not marring of cases as pictured |
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You're not the only one to have set-back / set-forward problems from time to time. And, it does not have to be multiple-fired cases either. http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh133/counterclockwisester/worstsetbacks1.jpg http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh133/counterclockwisester/worstsetbacks2.jpg Now that simply appears to setting Way to deep , especially the third from right |
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I know you *think* you followed the instructions . . . but there are only three possibilities. You didn't follow the instructions correctly, or you didn't set enough crimp because you didn't test until you chambered . . . or the die is defective.
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Any setback is too much, and you will not have it if your taper crimp die is properly adjusted. Did you follow the directions that came with the die? Of course I did, even watched the video by Leeprecision a few times , but .015 in a round that is chambered one time ? Actually I checked with a caliper and a L.E. Wilson case gage. As I stated in the original post I eventually cranked down approx. 2 turns until the bullet began to crease at which point setback was less but still prevalent Two turns is FAR too much. I'd bet you had it screwed down too far at the beginning, and made it worse by continuing to crank it down. IIRC on mine the die is adjusted in this manner: Have the die barely screwed in at all. Put a loaded, uncrimped, round on the shell plate/holder Raise the ram fully Screw the die down until it touches the case mouth Lower ram Screw the die down 1/8 turn additional Set the lock ring Cycle the press to crimp that round Measure COAL Hold in hand and pound the round on the bench top to see if any setback occurs Measure COAL again and make sure it didn't change |
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I know you *think* you followed the instructions . . . but there are only three possibilities. You didn't follow the instructions correctly, or you didn't set enough crimp because you didn't test until you chambered . . . or the die is defective.
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Any setback is too much, and you will not have it if your taper crimp die is properly adjusted. Did you follow the directions that came with the die? Of course I did, even watched the video by Leeprecision a few times , but .015 in a round that is chambered one time ? Actually I checked with a caliper and a L.E. Wilson case gage. As I stated in the original post I eventually cranked down approx. 2 turns until the bullet began to crease at which point setback was less but still prevalent Two turns is FAR too much. I'd bet you had it screwed down too far at the beginning, and made it worse by continuing to crank it down. IIRC on mine the die is adjusted in this manner: Have the die barely screwed in at all. Put a loaded, uncrimped, round on the shell plate/holder Raise the ram fully Screw the die down until it touches the case mouth Lower ram Screw the die down 1/8 turn additional Set the lock ring Cycle the press to crimp that round Measure COAL Hold in hand and pound the round on the bench top to see if any setback occurs Measure COAL again and make sure it didn't change WOW thanks tbk1, I did not go 1/8 past initial contact, BTW: final crimp knob was advanced approx. 220` past contact. |
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I know that 45 is somewhat tolerant of this sort of set back. However, pressures ARE increasing.
Need a concrete example? Speer #11 manual used to have info on 9mm x19. They did testing. A VERY small setback physically skyrocketed pressures to astromonical scales. 0.030" increase in seating depth (isn't setback simply unintended increases in seating depth) spiked pressures to 62,000 CUP. My .350 Rem Mag has a SAAMI pressure level of 56,200 CUP. If your bullets are being set back (target loads or not), you either have a bad seating die, did not adjust teh seating die corrrectly, didn't crimp properly, or have undersized bullets. Your loads are dangerous. |
| Measure the expander. Should be around .450" to maybe .449" If the expander is to large it can be turned down with some emery paper, when spinning it. You could try less crimp. The crimp helps hold the bullet, but the sized case needs to be smaller for correct neck tension. Maybe a different sizing die? On seating a bullet, the neck should expand .002" |
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I know that 45 is somewhat tolerant of this sort of set back. However, pressures ARE increasing. Need a concrete example? Speer #11 manual used to have info on 9mm x19. They did testing. A VERY small setback physically skyrocketed pressures to astromonical scales. 0.030" increase in seating depth (isn't setback simply unintended increases in seating depth) spiked pressures to 62,000 CUP. My .350 Rem Mag has a SAAMI pressure level of 56,200 CUP. If your bullets are being set back (target loads or not), you either have a bad seating die, did not adjust teh seating die corrrectly, didn't crimp properly, or have undersized bullets. Your loads are dangerous. Thanks, frozenny, I will heed your info , not negate your advice , I have starting loads @ 6.1gr.-7.5gr. (Power Pistol) , Hornady #9 is my guide . According to powder manufacturer (Alliant) I'm no where close close to max |
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Measure the expander. Should be around .450" to maybe .449" If the expander is to large it can be turned down with some emery paper, when spinning it. You could try less crimp. The crimp helps hold the bullet, but the sized case needs to be smaller for correct neck tension. Maybe a different sizing die? On seating a bullet, the neck should expand .002" 243winxb , I will mic it tomorrow , too many Yuenglings at the moment. 
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Setback
Call Sierra and Hodgdons, ask this exact question. " Will setback blow my pistol up." Note their answers. Neck tension controls setback, not crimp. Crimp can help prevent setback, but can also facilitate setback. Neck tension is set within your sizer die. Be careful and consider ALL advice |
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Much appreciated , 1911 smith, thank you for chiming in, Goodnight Now , back in the hack in 6(ish) hours. .45acp should size at case mouth to 0.446, no more than 0.448. Expander should be set to flare case mouth no more than 0.002 over bullet diameter. Responses had started wondering into some grey areas, glad to help. dc. |
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Let me tell you my personal experience with a type of bullet setback in 45 acp. I bought a box of Rainier 200 gr SWC bullets for 45 acp. I had a standard load for 45 acp I had been using for a very long time with 200 gr SWC lead bullets, it was a very mild load, at the time I started using it, it was right at the starting load for lead bullets, according to Hodgdon's website this load is dead center in their recommended loads, it is 5.0 gr of WW231 with a 200 gr lead SWC, very mild load, very pleasant to shoot. I picked up a box of Rainier 200 gr SWC plated bullets for 45 acp. I loaded up some using my standard load, since I wasn't changing bullet shape or weight I didn't readjust the seating depth. I took them out and shot them, they seemed a little snappy, but nothing excessive, when I got home and started sorting the brass I got quite a surprise, several of the primers were missing from those 45 cases. What the heck? I wasn't having any problems with loose primer pockets, why were those primers missing? When I started resizing the cases the primers were just falling out, those primers had blown from excessive pressures, the primer pockets were so expanded they wouldn't even hold primers anymore. I double checked my charges, they were fine, there was no difference in those loads except the bullets, so I starting loading up some test shells reducing the powder charge, I had to take those down to 3.2 gr of WW231 before I got rid of the pressure signs! 3.2 gr of WW231 behind a 200 gr SWC in 45 acp, that's crazy! Later I was able to consult some other reloaders and they suggested the OAL was too short, and it was driving the excessive pressures, I still had a few of those bullets left, so I seated them out 0.1" further with 5.0 gr of WW231, the same load that was blowing primers with excessive pressure, they shot just fine. So a seating depth just 0.1" further out took a load from blowing primers with excessive pressure, to a normal functioning load, if someone thinks bullet setback won't blow up a 45 acp pistol you are mistaken, because seating just slightly too deep proved how pressures can go right through the roof! Bullet setback has also been listed as the likely cause of a lot of the Police guns that have KB, officers who get in a habit of rechambering the same bullet time after time, the photo I posted above was of ammo taken from a Police firearms inspection, ammo taken out of officers pistols because of the danger it posed. |
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30 to 40K pistol rounds later and NO KBs or head separations - and I have used the WORST pistol brass from commercial ranges using many-times recycled brass.
How? I completely evade the set-back issue with a EGW brand or Lee brand "U" or "undersize" or (in rifle reloading terms) a "small base" die. It is ONLY a thou or two smaller than a standard pistol die. My reloaded ammo has a "coke bottle" shape to it. Simply put, set back is nearly impossible. The die is cheap and available - BUT you must order right from Lee (using a telephone - talking to a real person. Its not on their website). Or order from EGW out of PA. HOWEVER: here is the catch you all will hate: Hornady OneShot case spray is almost required if you use the carbide "U" die. Use a VERY small amount. Takes 2 seconds to apply to hundreds of cases. You can just leave it on the finished cases too. You decide. Works for me. |
| bullet setback is a neck tension issue and is NOT solved by increasing the amount of crimp. This is a case sizing issue. Resize a case and see if it fits properly in a case gauge, then make sure the neck width fits sammi specs. The resizing of the case should be sufficient to hold the bullet in place, the crimp aspect of reloading should be use primarily to remove the bell of the case. |
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Let me tell you my personal experience with a type of bullet setback in 45 acp. Bullet setback has also been listed as the likely cause of a lot of the Police guns that have KB,the same bullet time after time, the photo I posted above was of ammo taken from a Police firearms inspection, ammo taken out of officers pistols because of the danger it posed. Police guns were Gen 1&2 Glocks with insufficient chamber support. Gens 3&4 have sufficient chamber support. Failures were blown case heads, through the unsupported area and gas discharged through mag well. I worked a claim against Glock recently. Claim denied, we then went on to test factory ammunition and Centurion paid all damages. Claim had nothing to do with setback but I found it interesting that Glock denied setback as a cause for catastrophic failure in Gens 3&4. Hodgdons head ballistician backed Glocks response. Setback isn't the dark horse we might think it is in mechanically sound weapons. Seating depth is often confused for setback. Setback is a product of insufficient neck tension which gives up a lot of pressure potential that a deeply seated bullet with adequate tension would have. I don't know anyone who would debate increased neck tension yields higher pressure and vice versa. Please read link provided and make calls to both Hodgdons and Sierra. When comparing seating depth to setback your really comparing apples to oranges. Yes, setback increases pressure. No, setback will not blow up a mechanically sound weapon using good brass. dc. eta. Below are rounds manufactured without special small base dies. Note hour glass shape, not as defined as small base would be, but hour glasses. Dies were Hornady that were set and tuned using caliper, case mouths were sized to 0.466, then belled to 0.453. I did use fcd to crimp case mouths to 0.472 using Winchester brass, 0.010 case walls. Math works out to 0.452 + (0.010 x 2) = 0.472. Bullets were not swaged and case mouth set perfectly. Notice absence of "shiny ring" that would indicate carbide sizer ring had post sized bullets. Setback is not good and dies need be set to prevent setback. Measure components and set dies accordingly, no magic needed. Over my post limit for the week, so load safe. dc. 
Missouri Bullet Company 185 grain, lbnswc, oal @ 1.10. |
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Setback and seating depth are two different things, but they can have the exact same effect, it doesn't make any difference in how the bullet got there, it has the exact same effect. I know all about the Glock thing, but many other pistols have the same problem, the Glocks just had more of it than most. Its a fine line, and I'd rather not explore it, it was bad enough having to toss brass that could have been reloaded many more times except for the excessive pressure caused by the bullet being just a tiny bit too deep in the case, no matter how it got there. |
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Setback and seating depth are two different things, but they can have the exact same effect, it doesn't make any difference in how the bullet got there, it has the exact same effect. I know all about the Glock thing, but many other pistols have the same problem, the Glocks just had more of it than most. Its a fine line, and I'd rather not explore it, it was bad enough having to toss brass that could have been reloaded many more times except for the excessive pressure caused by the bullet being just a tiny bit too deep in the case, no matter how it got there. I hear you 5X5, but did you read the ENTIRE thread?. Just in the short time I have been in reloading (my original order for press , etc., Feb '13), unlike many, I was reading reloading manuals, and I comprehend fairly well, to continue, according to some way more knowledgeable folks than myself , I always welcome input in tech threads.. Thank You , Wingman26 |
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Measure the expander. Should be around .450" to maybe .449" If the expander is to large it can be turned down with some emery paper, when spinning it. You could try less crimp. The crimp helps hold the bullet, but the sized case needs to be smaller for correct neck tension. Maybe a different sizing die? On seating a bullet, the neck should expand .002" 243winxb , I will mic it tomorrow , too many Yuenglings at the moment. And then set the crimp diameter at the case mouth to 0.469 to 0.470 inches. I've crimped smaller without headspacing issues, too, but that was in a 1911 where the extractor holds onto the case. |
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