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Posted: 2/15/2013 6:56:37 PM EDT
| Today was a good day. After several hours of primer hunting, I managed to pick up some small and large match primers. I'm going to be using RL15 since varget is nowhere to be found, lapua Palma brass, and berger 175 OTM match. These are going to be the first rounds that I'll be loading. May practice with some cheaper stuff since I want these to be my precision rounds. I came on here for some tips on loading precision rounds and if I needed anything special to do so. And was wondering if I'm okay with the rl15? Thanks in advance. |
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First... All your component choices are solid. RL15 is a good powder, but temperature sensitive, so don't load hot in cooler weather and expect to not have issues in the summer. If memory serves, RL15 was the powder spec'ed in M118 that was having issues with blown primers in Iraqi summer-time.
Second... This needs to be moved into the reloading forum. |
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Quoted:
First... All your component choices are solid. RL15 is a good powder, but temperature sensitive, so don't load hot in cooler weather and expect to not have issues in the summer. If memory serves, RL15 was the powder spec'ed in M118 that was having issues with blown primers in Iraqi summer-time. Second... This needs to be moved into the reloading forum. Could you direct me there? I tried to locate it. Since I didn't find it, I thought it was this. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
First... All your component choices are solid. RL15 is a good powder, but temperature sensitive, so don't load hot in cooler weather and expect to not have issues in the summer. If memory serves, RL15 was the powder spec'ed in M118 that was having issues with blown primers in Iraqi summer-time. Second... This needs to be moved into the reloading forum. Could you direct me there? I tried to locate it. Since I didn't find it, I thought it was this. You're here, buddy! :) It's under "Armory", then pan down to "reloading". |
| Ah damn. I got a reply saying it should be moved to the reloading thread, but didn't think it would actually happen. I then did some detailed searching on the forum and found it, so I just remade the post. My apologies for the dupe. I'm not 100% sure how everything works on the site since I spend a lot of time just on the LaRue forum. |
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Quoted:
Ah damn. I got a reply saying it should be moved to the reloading thread, but didn't think it would actually happen. I then did some detailed searching on the forum and found it, so I just remade the post. My apologies for the dupe. I'm not 100% sure how everything works on the site since I spend a lot of time just on the LaRue forum. That's alright, we'll get you straight. The reloading forum is a wealth of information, people are friendly and will generally jump to help with any questions you might have. Back on subject... What brand of primers are you planning on using? I hope you already have them in hand because they're hard to come by. Also, what type of dies are you using? You mentioned that you were sure about them, so let's look at what gear you need as well. |
| I picked up some federal gold match small and large primers. Definitely a diamond in the rough right now. I got some Hornady dies for Christmas. I'm assuming standard stuff, but the dies seem to have really tight tolerances. I was going to use my friends equipment. I believe his press is an rcbs progressive and I think he has a Lee as well. He never buys top notch stuff, so I know it isn't anything like dillon or redding. |
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What are you using for brass and what equipment are you using to size with ?
I see where you've loaded some shotgun so you've likely got a good feel for the equipment. But, and there's a few. People who've never sized for gas guns and we've had several lately, one or two have been real gems who are in trouble, loaded rounds sticking in chambers and within the first few responded suggestions we find original poster to be too smart for his own good. Dozens of loaded rounds later he's re-learning how to size brass. First things first is sized brass with shoulders set right. Do you have an L.E. Wilson type case gage ? dc. |
I'm using Lapua Palma brass. I'll verify later, but for resizing, it's one of the manual ones and because its green, I'm pretty sure it's rcbs. I am new to all the reloading components. I thought one if the dies was what did the resizing to spec and what I was talking about earlier was to trim the necks down. Please feel free to straighten me out. 
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No straightening to be done in your case. Education is what's needed.
I'll predict right now you're going to jump ahead of the learning curve, get into trouble doing so, turn into an all day sucker and a handful to straighten out afterwards. I can list names of reloaders, active in this forum who started new, knew more than those donating time and patience to help. Jumped ahead of the curve, failed and consequently became all day suckers. I coin the term all day suckers because we had to go back to basics, like sizing brass and walk them back through the process while patiently overcoming objections from mis-perceptions of the process. Process being the basics, persons being like a thirsty horse staring at its reflection in a cool, pool of water, refusing to drink. This is what I call an all day sucker. Please, prove me wrong. What load manuals do you have ? |
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I knew it, no manuals. No shame, just get one that has set-up instructions. Like, this is the sizer die, this is how it works and this is how we suggest setting your dies. ABCs of Reloading can be bought on-line. Lee has first half of manual dedicated to basics.
We will walk you through the basics here, doesn't take much cause this ain't rocket science. IT IS A LESSON IN COMMUNICATING AND COMPREHENSION. That's what the books are for, references. Reference for the times instructions don't align with perception. This is the biggest ongoing barrier we deal with. So please, buy a book and manual so we can help you better. I could by-pass all this and quote a "recipe" from Berger data if you'd like but I got a hunch you came here for help on how to assemble a premium performance cartridge. Regards, dc. |
| My bad, it says RE-15. I'm illiterate today for some reason. Max load for 175 is 43.3 gr. I don't think I had one, but I'm going to make the assumption it's pretty important. I was looking at the redding instant headspace indicator. Is it necessary to spend that much on one? |
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Question was, charge range ?
Given the max and having re-read manual, sounds like you've verified. Reading comprehension is everything in this craft, problems with comprehension will get you hurt and equipment damaged. Ive loaded for OBR, its a nice gun but not everything LaRue says it is on a cracker. If you've seen LaRues infomercial dvd where he bought the filming of Ft. Benning Sniper comp. You'll see my son's name with his senior partner as having won some of the events. We've had a 7.62 OBR on range and loaded for it so I'm gonna say this just so you know. A marksman, handloader behind a DPMS will embarrass you and OBR if not up to the challenge. That said, this person hypothetically could be using Winchester brass, Hornady 168 hpbt loaded with Lee RGB dies threaded in a Lee single stage press. Answering your question, you don't need Redding anything to load OBR ammunition. The following is what you need. Dies, any brand. PM any brand. Reloader grade scale any brand. Single stage press, any brand or make and a cheap case gage, like Lyman. I prefer L.E. Wilson case gages. dc. |
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Start load is 39.0 and max is 43.3 with velocities starting at approx. 2396 and max is 2644.
I wanted to load these to have the best possible BC and consistency for shooting in matches, that's when I'm ready of course. Scratch that. I'm gonna go even if I don't to get some knowledge from the guys who shoot at them, even if I score zero points. Up here in the NW, not too many people are aware of how accurate these rifles can be, and I have these dreams of taking an auto loader against some of these high end bolt guns and win out. I'm confident with a good shooter, it can. Factory ammo has gotten me 1/2 inch groups and not even gotten 500 rounds through it. I'm aware that some of those DPMS rifles can do some work. What did you mean by PM? |
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Powder measure.
OBRs were matched against bolt rifles at Ft. Benning. In the overall, SOTIC instructors won who'd months of practice on range against teams with bolts guns who'd not had months worth of Ft. Benning on range time. Biggest benefit of this is judging wind patterns, of course. If you think an OBR will beat out bench rest grade bolt and barrel rifles you're gonna get some come 'uppins. I say this because of one, differences in barrels, for two to go up against match grade bolt guns you're going to single feed. Whatever concentricity built into cartridges fed through an AR feed action is removed. We were sub-moa at 600 yards using LaPua brass, 40 grains RL15 and 175 SMKs when testing OBR with my son on the trigger. My gunsmith 26" Shilen barrel will group inside anything an OBR can, at times by half with a lessor trigger man than we had on OBR. I wouldn't wait to gain experience before match because you get match experience by going to matches. Start at national level if you can afford it, you'll sled rocket past where practice or local matches take experience too. Local level match play is full of petty character in my experience, regional matches are better. I've found there's no room for ego to interfere with a good time with people who are most helpful. Your biggest challenge for now, right now is producing a sized case that passes a case gage. Forget bc, charge weight or anything else. You need perfectly sized cases with appropriate neck tension. THIS IS YOUR FOCUS. Regards, dc. |
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I knew accuracy wouldnt be up there against match bench rifles. I was looking to do tactical style comps, mainly hitting gongs. I was mainly talking about the tactical bolt guns. I know guys ditching their APA and some GA precision rifles for an OBR. I've heard from some SF guys that they are getting 1/2 MOA out to a thousand and sometimes better depending on the shooter. Could a different caliber in the OBR make it more accurate? I know Mark built a 260 rem on the OBR, but I haven't heard of any reports on how it shot. I had been thinking about getting a 260 rem barrel for my gun, because I believe it's leaps and bounds over the 308.
Anyways, with the head space gauge, I will be looking into the Wilson's. What should my specs be for head space? |
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If shooting tactical your looking to return brass to size. Believe it or not a lot of people new to AR loading are having sizing issues and find problems with loaded rounds sticking. Some guys cure this with small base dies. In my book of ultimately stupid things a reloader can do, small base sizing LaPua brass would about top the list.
You're looking for every case to fit at or below bottom recess inside gage, this insures feed ability and doesn't require a small base die. dc. |
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You mean to say, small base sizing dies. Small base dies size brass to the point of distortiong and compressing case web. My concern when sizing AR brass is casehead seperation. Small base sizing increases risks of case head seperation, in doing so decreases the amount of times MOST would reload brass. That said, buying LaPua doesn't make a whole lot of sense, besides anyone worth their salt can effectively size brass without using small base dies.
I'm gonna back out of this thread so you can get input other than mine. Good luck, dc. |
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Reloading for the OBR isn't rocket science, pretty much the same as reloading for anything else. There are some good recipes in the LaRue forum that people including myself have had success with after working up. I haven't messed with any of the VLD berger bullets because of how finicky they can be with making the jump to the rifling. The 175 OTM should work fine. Berger makes great bullets but you would have to decide if it is worth the extra price for your needs over the 178 and 175 Hornady and Sierra offerings. One bit of advice I do have is skip the Lapua brass. I personally feel like it gets wasted in gas guns. My OBR beats up brass pretty good. I'm getting multiple loadings out of LC brass, but I couldn't pay the price for Lapua and see it get beat up like that or worry about my gun throwing it all over the place. I also have yet to find a personal need for a small base die. |
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Quoted: I do have other once fired factory brass from Hornady and Federal. I kinda wished I knew that before I bought the lapua brass. I was basing my recipe on the applied ballistics ammo. I guess I won't have any issues selling them. What's the LC brass? Lake City = military brass with a primer crimp. Heavier brass than commercial 308 cases. |
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There is nothing wrong with using what you have, but you really need to check out the gateway threads in the forum and check out the ABCs of reloading. You can get great performance out of reloaded match grade rounds, and do it at a savings, but just starting off the bat to chase the applied ballistics recipe could be dangerous. I don't know what powder they use, but they do say it is an extruded powder, and is more temperature sensitive.
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Quoted:
There is nothing wrong with using what you have, but you really need to check out the gateway threads in the forum and check out the ABCs of reloading. You can get great performance out of reloaded match grade rounds, and do it at a savings, but just starting off the bat to chase the applied ballistics recipe could be dangerous. I don't know what powder they use, but they do say it is an extruded powder, and is more temperature sensitive. I had thought about doing that. But is there a way to find out what powder is used? My only guess is by weight. |
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You might have better luck trying to duplicate a Gold Metal Match round as there is plenty of info out there.
NEVER try to duplicate a load of anything just by looking at the powder and weighing it. Many commercial offerings use powder not available on the retail market. Hate to see you hurt yourself or your gun trying to run before you walk. jonblack |
| My apologies for asking that. I came here to get advice on doing everything properly. I'm not an experimental type of person to just go into the garage and hope my rifle doesn't blow up in my face. I mainly wanted a recipe to start with and for everything else, I'm going to hopefully find someone with experience to get some hands on. I know there are some folks in my area that actually offer classes. I sincerely thank you all for coming on here to help me out. I think for starters, I'll start with buying some applied ballistics ammo that closely mirrors to what I have and see how my rifle likes those. |
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Did you get around to sizing a case and case gaging afterwards ?
This really is a quick, simple process. Not everyone's process is the same but for those who follow the basics their process produces match grade consistency, better than ANY brand of commercially loaded ammunition. A quick "recipe" does you little good without the knowledge to put it together. The process starts with adequately sized brass with consistent neck tension to hold bullet and not allow pressure inconsistencies. Next is seating primer after brass has been prepped and clean. Then brass is ready for powder. A 40 grain charge shouldn't deviate more than +/- 2/10ths grain. Most keep variance to +/- 1/10 grain. Afterwards bullet is seated to case. Crimping is optional, I rarely use a crimp since neck tension is sufficient to guard bullet from setback or worse, inertial sling. It's really this simple. I've left out steps for procedures. We are here to help, but YOU HAVE TO SEEK the resources necessary to fill in the blanks. Probably a bit blunt, but not near as blunt as I am in the eight hour block I teach. That's an exercise in do it right or don't do it at all. Regards, dc. |
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If you want to go the applied ballistics ammo. I would start with a Berger Manual since that will have data for the 175 OTM and a good extruded powder to look at the Data for Varget. Varget is a powder many people have great results with in 308. Reloading involves a level of experimentation in a controlled way. You experiment within a safe range to see what gives the best results in your weapon. It isn't terribly difficult, but it does take some time and patience.
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Quoted: Quoted: My apologies for asking that. I came here to get advice on doing everything properly. I'm not an experimental type of person to just go into the garage and hope my rifle doesn't blow up in my face. I mainly wanted a recipe to start with and for everything else, I'm going to hopefully find someone with experience to get some hands on. I know there are some folks in my area that actually offer classes. I sincerely thank you all for coming on here to help me out. I think for starters, I'll start with buying some applied ballistics ammo that closely mirrors to what I have and see how my rifle likes those. Just noticed your state. I'm on the west side, couple hours from Seattle. Being vague on purpose. Answer via IM for opsec. Going to Payullap funshow this weekend? |
| Good news. Sold the Lapua Brass, and now I have found two 1 pounders of Varget. I piad top dollar for it, but I know I have a solid consistent powder. I plan on using my once fired Federal brass, and will be on the hunt for Lake City. Could anyone be kind enough to throw me a recipe to start with? Will the Varget be good for long range applications as well? |
I could do with being wrong. Tell me I'm wrong. 
Quoted:
No straightening to be done in your case. Education is what's needed. I'll predict right now you're going to jump ahead of the learning curve, get into trouble doing so, turn into an all day sucker and a handful to straighten out afterwards. I can list names of reloaders, active in this forum who started new, knew more than those donating time and patience to help. Jumped ahead of the curve, failed and consequently became all day suckers. I coin the term all day suckers because we had to go back to basics, like sizing brass and walk them back through the process while patiently overcoming objections from mis-perceptions of the process. Process being the basics, persons being like a thirsty horse staring at its reflection in a cool, pool of water, refusing to drink. This is what I call an all day sucker. Please, prove me wrong. What load manuals do you have ? |
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Soliciting load " recipes" online can be careless without supporting, published data. If you indeed have a Berger manual that's all the recipe you need. There's no short cutting load work ups. Not at your level of profiency.
Start low, work your way up. This is the process and it is rewarding. If you don't have a chronograph you need one. Remember Varget is temperature sensitive so chronograph is not an option. dc. |
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Both powders are stable. There's a huge difference between stable and temperature sensitive. If worried, do as suggested and load five or ten at 42 grains, set oal at 2.80" and go shoot them.
Chamber your sized, empty brass, close bolt behind for gage. Make sure bolt closes all the way or use case gage I suggested you get. dc. |
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You mean over pressure. Loose the word unstable. I'd load five or ten as suggested to 42 grains. Then shoot over chronograph. Compare velocity to your data.
Answering your question. Factor variances in 20 degree increments. I'm positive a 42 grain load or 43.5 grain load will be safe at any temperature. dc. eta. I don't worry about temperature sensitivity unless working near max charges and/or temperatures above 85 degrees. Chronograph is your friend. |
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Brando850,
Get the "ABCs of Reloading book" and start there. Read it cover to cover, twice. Then get another book, like the Hornady vol 8, or RCBS, or something. Read the sections up to the recipes. Then start thinking about reloading. Stop trying to run before you can walk like everyone is telling you. |
| You might give this a read: http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/. It's the method I've adopted for load developement and I'm very happy with it. And here is the explanation for why it works: http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm It's a lengthy and technical read but gives a lot of insight as to what's going on in the barrel during firing. Good luck. |
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