Armory Sponsor
Posted: 5/6/2012 10:03:14 AM EDT
|
I'm in the middle of case prep on a bunch of once fired brass, so I have a lot of time to think as I run the brass. It seems to me the idea that you can save money by buying and processing once fired military brass is incorrect. At best, it is a false economy. Here's why.
If you are buying a large supply of once fired brass (1,000 cases or more), you are going to spend a LOT of time and considerable money preparing that brass for use. Giraud trimmer Dillon Super Swage This set up is going to cost you about $500. Where's the savings in that? Well, it's a HUGE time saver but, no, there's no money saved. Even if you use it for 5,000 cases, you'll just barely break even on cost but you still had to put in the labor to prep the cases - about 40 hours. That's 5 days of work and you have just barely broken even. If you don't buy the expensive tools, you can still get this done but at a large increase in prep time. Wilson trimmer RCBS primer pocket swager This set up costs about $100. This moves the break-even point to about 1,000 cases. Case prep time is going to change,too. It takes "only" 20 hours to process the cases but you have only processed 1,000 cases, not the 5,000 cases discussed above. A simple alternative is to buy new commercial brass. You'll get 1,000 cases for about $175. Just load and shoot. What do you think? |
|
Yes but even still, unless you are going to buy new brass every time you reload, you will need to invest in at least the trim/chamfer/deburr tools.
And if you're spending the money on the tools already, why not save money on the brass. The realistic comparison is spending $60 per thousand of brass and $80-100 for a bench swage tool vs $175/1000 for new brass. The trimming is necessary when you resize anyway. |
| Or you can buy brass and have it processed by someone else. If I remember right it cost like $50/k or a little less by the time you add in shipping both ways. You can also buy already once fired process brass for about $100/k. I did the same calculations you did and realized in order to same money reloading it is going to take time, headaches, and alot of money. The more money the less time and headaches. I run a dillon 1050 with a dillon trimmer. I can process brass at a rate of over 1000 per hour. In less than 10 hour I can process and load 5k without any problems. If you are looking at reloading as a way to save you money it doesn't. It will alway cost you more because you will shoot more but you will over time be able to shoot cheaper. Look at just brass prep. If you bought once fired brass at $60/k verse $175/k for 5k you will save $575. Every time you reload from that point on you will not have to pay for the equiptment just labor. $575 is alot of powder, primers or bullets for the future. My only advise is if you are going to reload buy only once and get a dillon. |
|
Quoted:
Yes but even still, unless you are going to buy new brass every time you reload, you will need to invest in at least the trim/chamfer/deburr tools. And if you're spending the money on the tools already, why not save money on the brass. The realistic comparison is spending $60 per thousand of brass and $80-100 for a bench swage tool vs $175/1000 for new brass. The trimming is necessary when you resize anyway. I understand and somewhat (but don't totally) agree with your point. The desire to buy a Giraud trimmer really takes hold of you when you are staring at a 5 gallon bucket of brass that needs to be trimmed. Prior to that, you could have been happy with your Wilson trimmer, dealing with 100 cases at a time - a small card board box not a bucket. If you hadn't been trying to save money, you would not have put yourself in the situation that leads to contemplating and buying a Giraud. Ditto on the Super Swager, you can easily ream out the primer pocket on 100 cases using a $10 cutter but the effort required to ream 5,000 cases is altogether different. |
|
Dno't forgot the Dillon 1200 trimmer. Even if you have a single stage press you can size and trim in one pull of the handle.
Its $300 for a setup for 1 caliber. $50 for the die required for each other caliber, but the Giraud also requires an expensive conversion for each addition caliber. You can speedily trimer, and remove the primer crimp for under $320. Buy a RCBS chamber tool and a drill adapter. Less then 1 second per case will remove the crimp perfectly. |
|
Quoted:
Or you can buy brass and have it processed by someone else. If I remember right it cost like $50/k or a little less by the time you add in shipping both ways. You can also buy already once fired process brass for about $100/k. I did the same calculations you did and realized in order to same money reloading it is going to take time, headaches, and alot of money. The more money the less time and headaches. I run a dillon 1050 with a dillon trimmer. I can process brass at a rate of over 1000 per hour. In less than 10 hour I can process and load 5k without any problems. If you are looking at reloading as a way to save you money it doesn't. It will alway cost you more because you will shoot more but you will over time be able to shoot cheaper. Look at just brass prep. If you bought once fired brass at $60/k verse $175/k for 5k you will save $575. Every time you reload from that point on you will not have to pay for the equiptment just labor. $575 is alot of powder, primers or bullets for the future. My only advise is if you are going to reload buy only once and get a dillon. It's too much hassle, packaging and shipping brass out for prep. For me, I'd rather just buy pre-processed brass. But then, the price is higher, so I used new factory brass for comparison. I don't know anything about your economic circumstances, however, if you have a 1050 and a Dillon trimmer, you are not so concerned about the money involved. I would wager you focussed on time savings. In that regard, you chose well. |
|
what is your reason to reload?
Do you reload as a hobby? for performance? save money? on unknown brass, you spend more time prepping. on stuff you fire, its typically faster and easier. On brass I have fired, decap and resize and 75% is under 1.760. its ready to go again. For me, reloading is something I do when there isn't anything watchable on TV. Its a hobby. |
You needed a trimmer anyway....you spend $100 on a Super Swage and your time to save money on brass. I've done it but if I can get commercial Win brass for the same money I will....if LC/Speer is all that's available at a fair price I don't mind swaging pockets.
|
|
Quoted: This set up is going to cost you about $500. Where's the savings in that? Well, it's a HUGE time saver but, no, there's no money saved. What do you think? For me, my free time is worth money so any time I can save from reloading is time I can use elsewhere. |
| For short term reloading can be more expensive than buying ammo. If you are worried about the cost and time I would just buy loaded ammo. Reloading is not for everyone. I did the same calculations as trollslayer and if it wasn't for my volume of shooting or hunting loads it would not be worth it. I also like the ability to make ammo at any time and stock pile components when they are on sale. With the election coming up prices on ammo will skyrocket because of demand and marketing. With reloading you can have components on hand and reload when you need to. You don't have to buy at high prices. The reason I went with the dillon 1050 was brass preping and the time savings. When you get done buying all the different presses and extras it really isn't that much more for the dillon 1050. I actually sold off all my other presses except for a single stage press and I paid for the 1050 and had a thousand extra buck left over. I guess my point is reloading presses are for a lifetime and so is reloading. I am 25 and figure I will get at least a lifetime worth of reloading from my press. It seems expensive now but once you spend the money you never have to do it again. If you are only planing on buying a certian amount of ammo that will last you many years than reloading is not for you. I am actually selling my factory ammo to buy components. |
|
You probably need to be reloading for several years before you break even if you get a good set up.
I got into reloading about three years ago and have reloaded a few thousand .223 and .308 and I still haven't broke even yet. Probably won't for a couple of more years and that is with 90% of my range ammo being reloaded. |
|
Do you pay to have your lawn mowed? Your oil changed? Your car washed? Do you ever watch TV to relaz instead of doing something?
If you use the idea that time is money on everything, then sell your guns and work. Because time spent shooting could be better spent making money.... The difference is what time you spend on a hobby versus time spent on a task or "chore". If you are a car guy, changing oil, plugs and filters is part of knowing your car and checking out other things on it. Same for washing it. It all ends up being enjoyable time spent on something you like. Reloading is a separate hobby IMO. Time and money spent on it is then used to enjoy another hobby, your guns. My time spend reloading could be time spent zoning out in front of a computer or TV. I would rather go in and be productive some times than just sit. If you are into reloading just for cost savings and take your time into account, you are looking at it wrong |
|
Buying the prepped brass means that you buy somebody's time every instance, and every round costs. Buying the tools means that you're a craftsman, and every round you prep costs you what you're willing to invest of yourself. So, send me a check, and I'll start sending you brass. |
|
OP:
Also, with the Giraud trimmer and Super swage, and sizing on a case fed progressive is not near 40 hours. I can clean, anneal, size, trim, 1 K of brass in about 5 hrs. And that's using a 2.75 gal sonic cleaner. 'Borg ETA, add another 40 min to clean off the lube(cement mixer w/cob) |
|
Lol, I just remembered thats why I started this! Save money ha ha ha!
I have decided to change my math. I'm focusing on more precision reloads than blasting quality stuff. That way I can tell myself I saved 95¢ a round by loading my own match ammo for 30¢ each. 
|
|
Quoted: In the end - this is supposed to be Option 1.Lol, I just remembered thats why I started this! Save money ha ha ha! I have decided to change my math. I'm focusing on more precision reloads than blasting quality stuff. That way I can tell myself I saved 95¢ a round by loading my own match ammo for 30¢ each. |
|
If your looking to save money in the short time it's not going to be very cost effective. But if you buy quality tools and reload over the long term you will save money. You will also be able to control what you shoot. Personally after I have become pretty competent on a reloader I feel safer shooting my reloads that I do any of the factory ammo out there. Plus I feel I get better accuracy out of my reloads.
If your reloading for plinking ammo the savings isn't as great as if your reloading for hunting or precision ammo. Have you tried to buy a box of some top of the line rifle ammo for hunting. Some can run as high as $60-80 a box of 20. You can almost duplicate that rounds for about $1 instead of about $3-4. Pretty big savings over the long haul. Plus you can look at the prices of reloading plinking ammo on the first reload. You usually get 5-6 reloads out of rifle brass. Sometimes more depending on how hot you load. So the 2nd time around the brass is free as well as the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th. It adds up after a while. Bullets usually end up being your biggest expense. If you cast your pistol bullets and you got a good line on cheap lead you will save big time money after you pay off the tools to do it which aren't expensive to begin with. I also enjoy doing it. I don't try to sit down and in one night load a 1,000 rds of .223. I prep my brass in lots of 250 in a single night until I get 1,000 or so. Than I primer them all on another night. Then I'm ready to load them on another night. So it usually takes be about 5-6 nights to reload 1,000 rds of .223 with about 2 hrs work each night give or take. It's worth it to me. |
|
You guys are making a lot of good points.
I almost never buy loaded ammo. I am a fairly experienced reloader, 20+ years reloading handgun and rifle cartridges. The point I am making is that decrimping and processing a few hundred cases is a very different proposition than trying to process 5,000. Spending a spare hour or two to process a few hundred cases is a hobby. Processing 5,000 is drudgery and takes a long time. Also, there are issues of fatigue, mental and physical, that come into play which reduce my work rate (slow me down). A desire to facilitate the process (buy new tools) creeps into my thinking. If I succumb to this temptation, I have lost the battle to save some money (which was why you bought once-fired to start with). Then, once you have the tools, there is an on-going desire to recoup the cost by continuing to process once-fired instead of buying factory or pre-processed brass. It's just an observation I thought I'd share. |
|
Been reloading for 8 years now and still have not broke even. Oh and the time involved is crazy!!
–––––– True time to reload once fired Military rifle brass (plinking ammo) ## picking up brass: 30 minutes to pick up about 500 cases (actually this was about 10 minutes total between 3 people): ~1 hour per 1000 ## sorting: 15 minutes to sort brass between calibers and headstamps for about 300 rounds: ~1 hour per 1000 ## tumbler set up: This is time in front of the tumber and separator: 5 minutes per 200 rounds: ~0.5 hours per 1000 ## Sizing: 300 per hour: ~3.5 hours per 1000 ## tumber set up #2: to remove sizing lube. Time in front of the tumbler: ~0.5 hours per 1000 ## Trimming and Chamfering cases with Giraurd: ~2 hours per 1000 ## Swaging: 200 cases in 20 minutes: ~1.5 hours per 1000 ## Hornady LNL Press (priming, charging, seat bullet): 200 in half hour: ~2.5 hours per 1000 ##### Total Time: 12.5 hours per 1000 Keep in mind this is moving at a nice easy pace. Also I have a Giraud, a tool that improves your trimming time at least 400%. If you do not have a Giraud, then count on an additional 4 hours minimum. I did not include primier pocket cleaning or flash hole deburring in the times because I only do this for my precision loads. I did not include setup time because it is very minimal and is included in the 12.5 hours somewhere. For Pistol reloading, you do save a lot of money (15 cents a round vs. 35 cents a round for .45), and the only case prep involved is tumbling, so reloading is well worth it for pistols. The longer you stay in the game, the more you will spend on reloading equipment. Customizing your reloading set up is a never ending game. Getting "match dies", shooting a new caliber, or adding an extra progressive press all costs money. I really truly believe you do not save any money reloading. Heck, you might even spend more. Even if the equipment costs nothing, you have to ask youself how valuable is your time? For me Reloading is a hobby and nothing more. I do NOT do it to save time or save money. I do it because I enjoy the hobby, and I like knowing that I am taking my shooting hobby to another level. |
|
I've been loading at least as long as you Trollslayer...
I understand you observation, but like others have said: 1) Crimp removal is a ONE time thing. Most times you should get about another 5 loadings that don't require it. 2) Trimming is going to be required (IMO) each time. It's just part of the steps for rifle rounds. (you can make it easier)... Supposedly an X-die from RCBS, makes it like crimp removal... once & done. I use a Possum Hollow for $30 or so, I find it to be fast & easy. Takes about 1/2 hour for a large coffee can. 3) Why do you feel you need to process 5000 cases all at once????? Like others said, do smaller batches. I load all my rifle rounds on a single stage. I clean & store. I have 500 or so in this stage. (I just bought a universal decapper)... so I may be adding yet bother step. Another time, I'll lube some up & size. (I have 1000 or so in this stage) I haven't de-lubed them, because I plan on getting a wet cleaning system... then they'll get "re-cleaned" to test it out & clean the primer pockets... (eliminating a future step hopefully). Then, another time, I'll trim either one or both coffee cans, just depends. Another time, I'll sort & prime some or all. Etc., Etc. The point is... I agree with you. Prepping 5000 cases ISN'T fun (except for the most hardcore). BUT... where does it say you have to do them ALL in one sitting? When I charge powder and seat, I RARELY do more than one box of 500... (even for pistol stuff on a progressive). I ALWAYS have WAY more than 500 pistol cases of anyone caliber that are ready to go... but I still seldom load more than 500 at a time. Just do a few at a time. It's supposed to be enjoyable & relaxing... or at least... it shouldn't be a dreaded chore. |
|
I have never bought .223 brass because it is always just laying there on the ground waiting to be picked up. I don't really care how long reloading takes, and I'm pretty sure the equipment will take a lifetime to pay for itself, because there's always something new to buy.
I'm not really in it for the savings so much, I mean I can tell my wife that we saved this much by reloading (without talking about the equipment).  I honestly enjoy reloading, even the case prep. I don't sit around and prep 5,000 pieces of brass in one shot, take some smaller bites, man. I have a few thousand that are decapped and tumbled waiting to be processed, but only a few hundred are in the rotation.
Reloading is how I blow off steam, and is how I get mentally prepared and pumped up for the range the next day or weekend. Working on the load for a certain bullet, and getting her dialed in is what it's all about. One tight group that is repeatable makes it all worth it, kind of like winning at cards. It's supposed to be fun, I think. |
|
Quoted:
I don't sit around and prep 5,000 pieces of brass in one shot, take some smaller bites, man. This really is the "solution", isn't it, now that I have purchased all this brass? NAWreckdiver and others pretty much said the same thing. I had just finished loading about 2,000 cartridges in 223. I opened another box and was overwhelmed by the prospects of how much of my time I was going to have to invest to get them reloaded. I was also looking at all the tooling I've purchased to get it done. For me, this is one area where I do not intend to buy anything except fully prepared, ready to reload brass. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't sit around and prep 5,000 pieces of brass in one shot, take some smaller bites, man. This really is the "solution", isn't it, now that I have purchased all this brass? NAWreckdiver and others pretty much said the same thing. I had just finished loading about 2,000 cartridges in 223. I opened another box and was overwhelmed by the prospects of how much of my time I was going to have to invest to get them reloaded. I was also looking at all the tooling I've purchased to get it done. For me, this is one area where I do not intend to buy anything except fully prepared, ready to reload brass. That will work pretty well until the first batch you buy that's not ready to load. Either the brass wasn't really sized or trimmed, the brass was someone's old shot out junk, it shows up with dented bodies and case mouths, or it was not sized with the shoulders pushed back far enough to fit your rifle's chamber. I need more control over the process. |
|
My brass purchasing preferences for the future:
1. New, unfired commercial brass (usually Winchester or Remington) 2. Once-fired commercial brass with no primer crimps 3. Once-fire military brass that's been sized and decrimped 4. Everything else is last In all cases, I run the brass thru my sizing FL die to ensure the headspace is proper, the case neck is round and the flash hole is clear. |
Armory Sponsor