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Posted: 2/11/2012 2:54:35 PM EDT
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I am not new to load developement but this is my first venture with the .223. I have been lurking around in different forums to find a decent plinking round for my Del-Ton 1/9 cl 16" M4. I picked up a pound of h335, 1000 hornady 55fmj-bt w/c and I already had 5000 cci 41 primers to use. I am usung once fired Federal brass.
Ok here is were the problem starts. Hodsgons, hornady, and Lyman all have different min and max loads. So I loaded up 5 rounds each 21.6-26.1 (no signs of any presssure) in .5 increments loaded to 2.200 with a slight crimp from lee FCD. I am shooting from a bullbag at 100 yrds and for some reason i can not get a group less that 5-6 inches. what am i doing wrong? My thoughts were to go to (1)2.260 on the length (2) not crimp. |
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Could be a lot of things. Could be your gun doesn't like your choice of bullet or your choice of powder. Could be your OAL, but I doubt it. OAL will affect accuracy but I have never seen any change in OAL bring a 6 inch group down to any kind respectable level.
Have you tried factory ammo in your AR? If not try some and see how they shoot. If they shoot monster groups as well then I would look towards the rifle or the optics. How are you testing your loads,off a bag, off a tri-pod? Speaking of optics, have you checked all the mounts and screws and maybe tried a different scope? OH, BTW Federal brass sucks. |
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Could be a lot of things. Could be your gun doesn't like your choice of bullet or your choice of powder. Could be your OAL, but I doubt it. OAL will affect accuracy but I have never seen any change in OAL bring a 6 inch group down to any kind respectable level. Have you tried factory ammo in your AR? I have only tried factory ammo with a red dot and it was about 3-4 inches at 100 yards with 3 moa red dot. If not try some and see how they shoot. If they shoot monster groups as well then I would look towards the rifle or the optics. I dont think it is the optics as i took it off my 6.8 and I can shoot less 3/4 inch at 100 yards. How are you testing your loads,off a bag, off a tri-pod? Off a bull bag. Speaking of optics, have you checked all the mounts and screws and maybe tried a different scope? OH, BTW Federal brass sucks.What makes you say that? I here people say this but then I also have people saying they have no issues with it. I have over 1500 pcs of it so I figured I would see if I could use it. |
| Did you try at 200 yards? Did you use the same grip and trigger control? Was it windy? Do you feel like every shot was perfect? I have heard some people have trouble getting good groups with a BT bullet at 100 yards but have no problems at 200. Not sure what twist rate their rifles were but maybe try backing up or using a FB bullet and see if it does same thing. If it does, then it is not the bullet. |
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I have tried a couple of different 55gr bullets and found that there is a small margin of sweet spot. My first guess is that you skipped over it. For what it's worth, I shoot 10 shot groups with iron sights (1:9 16" .223) at 50 yards using the same 0.5gr increment that you use. I take the targets and analyze them for which is most accurate (putting them in the computer and using OnTarget if I have to). Then I take the most accurate and work up 10 shot groups 0.2 and 0.4gr above and below that charge (staying in the limits of the manuals). If a couple of those are close, then I take it out to 100yds.
Second guess is what you already hit on. The bullets could be seated too low, and making a big jump to the lands. Might be enough to get the round spinning with a little yaw, which would open your group. I would seat the bullets a little longer, but if the mouth is around the cannelure now, you may not be able to. On that note, are the cases possibly trimmed too short? Uneven neck tension may contribute. I haven't tried your particular combo yet, but I am sure that the guys that have worked up that combo to perfection will be along shortly. |
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Not much in the way of powder/primer/bullet combinations will consistently produce those size groups if the rifle and optics are set up right. Generally when my groups are that out of whack there is something wrong with optics mounting or scope itself.
Your factory load work with the rifle is somewhat inconclusive since size of groups resembles size of dot. I would probably do another session with scope using quality factory ammo to set calibration point for my handloads. Given there is no problem with mounts, rings, or scope the next thing to consider is the rifle throating, chamber, barrel, . . ., etc. |
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Quoted: I am not new to load developement but this is my first venture with the .223. I have been lurking around in different forums to find a decent plinking round for my Del-Ton 1/9 cl 16" M4. I picked up a pound of h335, 1000 hornady 55fmj-bt w/c and I already had 5000 cci 41 primers to use. I am usung once fired Federal brass. Ok here is were the problem starts. Hodsgons, hornady, and Lyman all have different min and max loads. So I loaded up 5 rounds each 21.6-26.1 (no signs of any presssure) in .5 increments loaded to 2.200 with a slight crimp from lee FCD. I am shooting from a bullbag at 100 yrds and for some reason i can not get a group less that 5-6 inches. what am i doing wrong? My thoughts were to go to (1)2.260 on the length (2) not crimp. First, welcome to Arfcom and the Reloading Forum.  Tell us exactly what the headstamp says. FC 223 rem? FC 06 (or other date)? FC in small or large letters? ect Some FC brass is inferior, some ok. It's a web thickness issue that the old FC (large letters) cases suffered from. The 55 gr Hornady FMJBT is considered the most accurate 55 gr FMJBT out there. Continue to seat to 2.20. Not enough bullet length to seat longer and maintain neck tension. A light crimp is fine, do not over do the crimp. Load data is normally different from different sources. Average out the values. Load data is a report of what happened that day. Reported by different people using different guns, components and test equipment. I suggest you try another brand of brass. Win, Rem, PMC are all good. Many people like H-335, but I always had better results with other powders. I suggest Tac. At 100 yds off a bench, the 55 gr Hornady FMJBT should put 5 rounds into around an inch. To be honest, I'm guessing you have a rifle issue. Loose scope mount maybe?? |
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Did you try at 200 yards? No i did not try it at 200 because at 100 yard the grouping was ridiculous. Did you use the same grip and trigger control? Yes Was it windy? Pretty calm Florida day. Do you feel like every shot was perfect?[red] I did, that is why i am surprised with the results[/red].I have heard some people have trouble getting good groups with a BT bullet at 100 yards but have no problems at 200. Not sure what twist rate their rifles were but maybe try backing up or using a FB bullet and see if it does same thing. If it does, then it is not the bullet. |
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I have tried a couple of different 55gr bullets and found that there is a small margin of sweet spot. My first guess is that you skipped over it. For what it's worth, I shoot 10 shot groups with iron sights (1:9 16" .223) at 50 yards using the same 0.5gr increment that you use. I take the targets and analyze them for which is most accurate (putting them in the computer and using OnTarget if I have to). Then I take the most accurate and work up 10 shot groups 0.2 and 0.4gr above and below that charge (staying in the limits of the manuals). If a couple of those are close, then I take it out to 100yds. Second guess is what you already hit on. The bullets could be seated too low, and making a big jump to the lands. Might be enough to get the round spinning with a little yaw, which would open your group. I would seat the bullets a little longer, but if the mouth is around the cannelure now, you may not be able to. On that note, are the cases possibly trimmed too short? Uneven neck tension may contribute. I haven't tried your particular combo yet, but I am sure that the guys that have worked up that combo to perfection will be along shortly. I will start over and try this way and see what I come up with. |
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I am not new to load developement but this is my first venture with the .223. I have been lurking around in different forums to find a decent plinking round for my Del-Ton 1/9 cl 16" M4. I picked up a pound of h335, 1000 hornady 55fmj-bt w/c and I already had 5000 cci 41 primers to use. I am usung once fired Federal brass. Ok here is were the problem starts. Hodsgons, hornady, and Lyman all have different min and max loads. So I loaded up 5 rounds each 21.6-26.1 (no signs of any presssure) in .5 increments loaded to 2.200 with a slight crimp from lee FCD. I am shooting from a bullbag at 100 yrds and for some reason i can not get a group less that 5-6 inches. what am i doing wrong? My thoughts were to go to (1)2.260 on the length (2) not crimp. First, welcome to Arfcom and the Reloading Forum. Tell us exactly what the headstamp says. FC 223 rem? FC 06 (or other date)? FC in small or large letters? ect Not at home but if I recall it says " fc 223" Lowercase letters Some FC brass is inferior, some ok. It's a web thickness issue that the old FC (large letters) cases suffered from. I remember reading about this and cut a pice of brass open. I came up with .089. The 55 gr Hornady FMJBT is considered the most accurate 55 gr FMJBT out there. Continue to seat to 2.20. Not enough bullet length to seat longer and maintain neck tension. A light crimp is fine, do not over do the crimp. Load data is normally different from different sources. Average out the values. Load data is a report of what happened that day. Reported by different people using different guns, components and test equipment. I suggest you try another brand of brass. Win, Rem, PMC are all good. I do have a few other pices of different brass but i have about 1500 federal that is way I decided to use them. Many people like H-335, but I always had better results with other powders. I suggest Tac. At 100 yds off a bench, the 55 gr Hornady FMJBT should put 5 rounds into around an inch. To be honest, I'm guessing you have a rifle issue. Loose scope mount maybe?? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I am not new to load developement but this is my first venture with the .223. I have been lurking around in different forums to find a decent plinking round for my Del-Ton 1/9 cl 16" M4. I picked up a pound of h335, 1000 hornady 55fmj-bt w/c and I already had 5000 cci 41 primers to use. I am usung once fired Federal brass. Ok here is were the problem starts. Hodsgons, hornady, and Lyman all have different min and max loads. So I loaded up 5 rounds each 21.6-26.1 (no signs of any presssure) in .5 increments loaded to 2.200 with a slight crimp from lee FCD. I am shooting from a bullbag at 100 yrds and for some reason i can not get a group less that 5-6 inches. what am i doing wrong? My thoughts were to go to (1)2.260 on the length (2) not crimp. First, welcome to Arfcom and the Reloading Forum. Tell us exactly what the headstamp says. FC 223 rem? FC 06 (or other date)? FC in small or large letters? ect Not at home but if I recall it says " fc 223" Lowercase letters Ok, newer brass. Good. Some FC brass is inferior, some ok. It's a web thickness issue that the old FC (large letters) cases suffered from. I remember reading about this and cut a pice of brass open. I came up with .089. Again good. The 55 gr Hornady FMJBT is considered the most accurate 55 gr FMJBT out there. Continue to seat to 2.20. Not enough bullet length to seat longer and maintain neck tension. A light crimp is fine, do not over do the crimp. Load data is normally different from different sources. Average out the values. Load data is a report of what happened that day. Reported by different people using different guns, components and test equipment. I suggest you try another brand of brass. Win, Rem, PMC are all good. I do have a few other pices of different brass but i have about 1500 federal that is way I decided to use them. You are having problems, try some other headstamp after carefully checking over rifle and scope. Good luck. Many people like H-335, but I always had better results with other powders. I suggest Tac. At 100 yds off a bench, the 55 gr Hornady FMJBT should put 5 rounds into around an inch. To be honest, I'm guessing you have a rifle issue. Loose scope mount maybe?? |
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As stated above.
First thing I would do is test some quality factory ammo with the current scope set up. If they shoot good it's your load, if not it's your optics or the rifle. Diagnosing problems can be a pain, but changing only one thing at a time then testing is the way to go. I am guessing your rifle is chambered in 5.56 not 223? If so, forget about increasing OAL to reduce the jump, anything that fits into the mag will have a long jump. As stated above keep them at 2.200 for now. I do not think it is your twist as many a 5.56 1-9 will shoot lights out with 52-55gr bullets. Check those mounts. |
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Quoted: Another question for you: How do you prep your brass? *Tumble clean, walnut with brass cleaner added. (*dry tumbling method) Lube and size Tumble off lube, plain Corn cob, no additives. Trim to 1.755 and debur. Cases all trimmed to the same length will make crimping easier (if you crimp) and bullet pull will be consistent. (better accuracy) People who load "bang" ammo usually don't trim or debur. Not how I roll. Remove crimp if needed. I uniform the primer pocket on all my 223 loads. This is optional, but you get consistent primer seating heights and reduce the risk of a slam fire.  Case prep done, place cases in a Ziplock with a case prep tag. Pic of 9mm brass, 223 will have more blocks filled out on case prep tag. Cases are stored until ready to load.  Some prepped 223. |
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I am not new to load developement but this is my first venture with the .223. I have been lurking around in different forums to find a decent plinking round for my Del-Ton 1/9 cl 16" M4. I picked up a pound of h335, 1000 hornady 55fmj-bt w/c and I already had 5000 cci 41 primers to use. I am usung once fired Federal brass. Ok here is were the problem starts. Hodsgons, hornady, and Lyman all have different min and max loads. So I loaded up 5 rounds each 21.6-26.1 (no signs of any presssure) in .5 increments loaded to 2.200 with a slight crimp from lee FCD. I am shooting from a bullbag at 100 yrds and for some reason i can not get a group less that 5-6 inches. what am i doing wrong? My thoughts were to go to (1)2.260 on the length (2) not crimp. First, welcome to Arfcom and the Reloading Forum. Tell us exactly what the headstamp says. FC 223 rem? FC 06 (or other date)? FC in small or large letters? ect Not at home but if I recall it says " fc 223" Lowercase letters (sorry, it is large letters, however the web is still thicker) Ok, newer brass. Good. Some FC brass is inferior, some ok. It's a web thickness issue that the old FC (large letters) cases suffered from. I remember reading about this and cut a pice of brass open. I came up with .089. Again good. The 55 gr Hornady FMJBT is considered the most accurate 55 gr FMJBT out there. Continue to seat to 2.20. Not enough bullet length to seat longer and maintain neck tension. A light crimp is fine, do not over do the crimp. Load data is normally different from different sources. Average out the values. Load data is a report of what happened that day. Reported by different people using different guns, components and test equipment. I suggest you try another brand of brass. Win, Rem, PMC are all good. I do have a few other pices of different brass but i have about 1500 federal that is way I decided to use them. You are having problems, try some other headstamp after carefully checking over rifle and scope. Good luck. Many people like H-335, but I always had better results with other powders. I suggest Tac. At 100 yds off a bench, the 55 gr Hornady FMJBT should put 5 rounds into around an inch. To be honest, I'm guessing you have a rifle issue. Loose scope mount maybe?? |
I had a similar issue with a freshly home built Armalite using their assembled upper. Was getting 3" groups with 6" shifts of group center between groups. Found barrel nut only hand tight. Torqued properly, now it's a .7 moa rifle. TR from the Armalite forum said they had a few get out the door that way in the time frame mine was built but that the fellow responsible no longer works there. Any way, check your barrel nut. 
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I am not new to load developement but this is my first venture with the .223. I have been lurking around in different forums to find a decent plinking round for my Del-Ton 1/9 cl 16" M4. I picked up a pound of h335, 1000 hornady 55fmj-bt w/c and I already had 5000 cci 41 primers to use. I am usung once fired Federal brass. Ok here is were the problem starts. Hodsgons, hornady, and Lyman all have different min and max loads. So I loaded up 5 rounds each 21.6-26.1 (no signs of any presssure) in .5 increments loaded to 2.200 with a slight crimp from lee FCD. I am shooting from a bullbag at 100 yrds and for some reason i can not get a group less that 5-6 inches. what am i doing wrong? My thoughts were to go to (1)2.260 on the length (2) not crimp. Here are two things I would try: First buy a Dillon or Wilson Case (headspace) Guage and make sure all your loaded rounds will fit into the gauge. If your rounds don't guage than the problem is the ammo-either the cases aren't properly sized or prepped(trimmed). If your cases guage than it is time to send your rifle back to the manufacturer because more than likely your rifle has a headspace problem. I get better results out of a franken rifle with an Aimpoint ML3 using M855 62 grain FMJBT Steel core Bullets reloaded in Lake City cases, with Wolf Primers. Another thing you can do is get a box of Federal Gold Match 223 Rem with 69 grain Sierra Match King Bullets. If you can't get > 2MOA from that factory ammo than send the rifle back to Del-Ton immediately. |
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Well after reading the post on here and other forums I loaded up some rounds and went to the range. I had my chrono but forgot my stand so I did not chrono my loads.
Conditions: 75* Variable 7-10 mph winds Not idea for load development but my time is running out of time as these loads will be used for my 2 gun competition on 2/19/12. Another thing that I considered was that since the winds were this strong a calm day would provide better results. First I had some federal factory 223 so i loaded up 5 rounds to see how they would do at 100 yards. I put a 3 inch orange sticker on a paper plate and fired the 5 rounds. http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv265/RajuyElbey/223%20load%20Development/55gr_federal.jpg Then I shot 10 55gr Vmax bullets at 100 yards http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv265/RajuyElbey/223%20load%20Development/55gr_vmax.jpg Then I decided to load 5 rounds each 24, 24.3, 24.6, 24.9, and 25.2 of H335. I kept the same length of 2.200 but I did not crimp these rounds. I found that 24.9 and 25.2 was my best loads but I am not sure what happened with the fliers in each one of these targets. 24gr http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv265/RajuyElbey/223%20load%20Development/24_h335.jpg 24.3 http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv265/RajuyElbey/223%20load%20Development/243_h335.jpg 24.6 http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv265/RajuyElbey/223%20load%20Development/246_h335.jpg 24.9 http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv265/RajuyElbey/223%20load%20Development/249_h335.jpg 25.2 http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv265/RajuyElbey/223%20load%20Development/252_h335.jpg I will continue to fine tune these load and work with my OAL to see if i can tighten up the groups. I only need to be able to shoot a 8" plate at 100 yards so these loads will more than work. I would like to thank everyone for their input and help. |
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Reshoot the last two charges and shoot 10 to 15 rounds into each target.
Try to call flyers for the conditions. If you let the shot go when the wind gusts, then make an honest judgement about whether that was the cause for the flyer. Those last two targets make me wonder if you're jerking the trigger or bumping the gun; doesn't take much. |
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Reshoot the last two charges and shoot 10 to 15 rounds into each target. Try to call flyers for the conditions. If you let the shot go when the wind gusts, then make an honest judgement about whether that was the cause for the flyer. Those last two targets make me wonder if you're jerking the trigger or bumping the gun; doesn't take much. +1 Of course, I wasn't there when you were shooting but it looks like some of the fliers were caused by loss of trigger control. I don't know how much experience you have, so please don't take that the wrong way. One thing that I do to help fix my trigger control issues is dry firing. If you are looking at the target and not focused on the front sight/cross hair, your group will be wildly open. Dry fire while focusing intensly on the front sight/cross hair and notice after the break if the sight moves at all. Your first dry fire might be perfect, but after a few trigger pulls your habits are going to show up and help you see what's going on. Also pay close attention to how you are placing your finger on the trigger each shot. It should be they same every time and allow you to pull the trigger straight back. The 24.3gr group looks like you had too much finger on the two right shots and then jerked the trigger for the flier, but it could also be loss of focus or inconsistent charging during reloading. 24.9gr looks good. I think that you might have found the best charge. Try carefully loading 10 to 20rds of 24.9gr and then try again at the range. Shoot a group of 10, then try mixing in some dry fire drills with the next group of 10 (on a second target). See if you notice any difference in the groups. Good luck. |
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Reshoot the last two charges and shoot 10 to 15 rounds into each target. Try to call flyers for the conditions. If you let the shot go when the wind gusts, then make an honest judgement about whether that was the cause for the flyer. Those last two targets make me wonder if you're jerking the trigger or bumping the gun; doesn't take much. Yeah, I have to re-shoot the last two charges to verify they are good. Being that it was a windy day i should be able to tighten the groups up. I had some people in m4carbine tell me 24 gr looks the best. Im not sure why they said that. |
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Reshoot the last two charges and shoot 10 to 15 rounds into each target. Try to call flyers for the conditions. If you let the shot go when the wind gusts, then make an honest judgement about whether that was the cause for the flyer. Those last two targets make me wonder if you're jerking the trigger or bumping the gun; doesn't take much. +1 Of course, I wasn't there when you were shooting but it looks like some of the fliers were caused by loss of trigger control. I don't know how much experience you have, so please don't take that the wrong way. One thing that I do to help fix my trigger control issues is dry firing. If you are looking at the target and not focused on the front sight/cross hair, your group will be wildly open. Dry fire while focusing intensly on the front sight/cross hair and notice after the break if the sight moves at all. Your first dry fire might be perfect, but after a few trigger pulls your habits are going to show up and help you see what's going on. Also pay close attention to how you are placing your finger on the trigger each shot. It should be they same every time and allow you to pull the trigger straight back. The 24.3gr group looks like you had too much finger on the two right shots and then jerked the trigger for the flier, but it could also be loss of focus or inconsistent charging during reloading. 24.9gr looks good. I think that you might have found the best charge. Try carefully loading 10 to 20rds of 24.9gr and then try again at the range. Shoot a group of 10, then try mixing in some dry fire drills with the next group of 10 (on a second target). See if you notice any difference in the groups. Good luck. I am not taking anything in the wrong way. I think you hit something when you talked about the trigger. The trigger is just a stock trigger and could use some work (a new trigger in the budget soon). I did notice that when I was shooting since the trigger pull is so rough that by the time the shot broke, my left eye was twitching and I would have to refocus to make he shot. I also have to work on my breathing. I think doing dry fire exercises would speed up my trigger pull, which would allow me to aquire the target and squeeze the trigger without having to refocus or restart my breathing technique. Thanks for the advice. |
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Reshoot the last two charges and shoot 10 to 15 rounds into each target. Try to call flyers for the conditions. If you let the shot go when the wind gusts, then make an honest judgement about whether that was the cause for the flyer. Those last two targets make me wonder if you're jerking the trigger or bumping the gun; doesn't take much. +1 Of course, I wasn't there when you were shooting but it looks like some of the fliers were caused by loss of trigger control. I don't know how much experience you have, so please don't take that the wrong way. One thing that I do to help fix my trigger control issues is dry firing. If you are looking at the target and not focused on the front sight/cross hair, your group will be wildly open. Dry fire while focusing intensly on the front sight/cross hair and notice after the break if the sight moves at all. Your first dry fire might be perfect, but after a few trigger pulls your habits are going to show up and help you see what's going on. Also pay close attention to how you are placing your finger on the trigger each shot. It should be they same every time and allow you to pull the trigger straight back. The 24.3gr group looks like you had too much finger on the two right shots and then jerked the trigger for the flier, but it could also be loss of focus or inconsistent charging during reloading. 24.9gr looks good. I think that you might have found the best charge. Try carefully loading 10 to 20rds of 24.9gr and then try again at the range. Shoot a group of 10, then try mixing in some dry fire drills with the next group of 10 (on a second target). See if you notice any difference in the groups. Good luck. I am not taking anything in the wrong way. I think you hit something when you talked about the trigger. The trigger is just a stock trigger and could use some work (a new trigger in the budget soon). I did notice that when I was shooting since the trigger pull is so rough that by the time the shot broke, my left eye was twitching and I would have to refocus to make he shot. I also have to work on my breathing. I think doing dry fire exercises would speed up my trigger pull, which would allow me to aquire the target and squeeze the trigger without having to refocus or restart my breathing technique. Thanks for the advice. A-Lot of High Power shooters will wear a eye patch over the left eye when right eye dominate. I do with or without a scope when target shooting. Try it, it may help. |
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I think your next step should be having another experienced shooter or two take a shot at it. If they can reduce the fliers then it may be you, if not, continue the search.
Did you check those mounts? What were the first V-Max loads? Factory or handloads? Then I decided to load 5 rounds each 24, 24.3, 24.6, 24.9, and 25.2 of H335.
Sorry if I missed this, but what bullet were these loads above, V-Max or other? |
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I think your next step should be having another experienced shooter or two take a shot at it. If they can reduce the fliers then it may be you, if not, continue the search. This is a good idea,never thought of this. Did you check those mounts? The mounts are fine What were the first V-Max loads? Factory or handloads? Then I decided to load 5 rounds each 24, 24.3, 24.6, 24.9, and 25.2 of H335.
Sorry if I missed this, but what bullet were these loads above, V-Max or other? Horrnady 55gr fmcj-bt w/c |
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Reshoot the last two charges and shoot 10 to 15 rounds into each target. Try to call flyers for the conditions. If you let the shot go when the wind gusts, then make an honest judgement about whether that was the cause for the flyer. Those last two targets make me wonder if you're jerking the trigger or bumping the gun; doesn't take much. +1 Of course, I wasn't there when you were shooting but it looks like some of the fliers were caused by loss of trigger control. I don't know how much experience you have, so please don't take that the wrong way. One thing that I do to help fix my trigger control issues is dry firing. If you are looking at the target and not focused on the front sight/cross hair, your group will be wildly open. Dry fire while focusing intensly on the front sight/cross hair and notice after the break if the sight moves at all. Your first dry fire might be perfect, but after a few trigger pulls your habits are going to show up and help you see what's going on. Also pay close attention to how you are placing your finger on the trigger each shot. It should be they same every time and allow you to pull the trigger straight back. The 24.3gr group looks like you had too much finger on the two right shots and then jerked the trigger for the flier, but it could also be loss of focus or inconsistent charging during reloading. 24.9gr looks good. I think that you might have found the best charge. Try carefully loading 10 to 20rds of 24.9gr and then try again at the range. Shoot a group of 10, then try mixing in some dry fire drills with the next group of 10 (on a second target). See if you notice any difference in the groups. Good luck. I am not taking anything in the wrong way. I think you hit something when you talked about the trigger. The trigger is just a stock trigger and could use some work (a new trigger in the budget soon). I did notice that when I was shooting since the trigger pull is so rough that by the time the shot broke, my left eye was twitching and I would have to refocus to make he shot. I also have to work on my breathing. I think doing dry fire exercises would speed up my trigger pull, which would allow me to aquire the target and squeeze the trigger without having to refocus or restart my breathing technique. Thanks for the advice. A-Lot of High Power shooters will wear a eye patch over the left eye when right eye dominate. I do with or without a scope when target shooting. Try it, it may help. Thanks for the tip. I will give this a try. |
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On a side note, I use a blinder for high power and it helps a lot. I don't have to move across terrain with a loaded weapon though. Here are some other thoughts along the same line that might help.
When you close your non-dominant eye to shoot, it can cause some fatigue in your shooting eye when it tries to focus (your twitching). Leaving your non-dominant eye open allows both eyes to relax, which helps with focus and sight picture. When you breathe out to take your shot, you need to try to let out your air to the same point every time. More air in your lungs is like having a bigger balloon to sit on when you are trying to shoot. Not enough air and you will lose oxygen faster which effects focus. When you first hold your breathe (I use the term "hold" lightly) it takes about 3-5 seconds for your heart and nerves to settle down. You then have about 3-5 more seconds (depending on physical fitness) where you will have the most stable sight picture you can get. If you find that you can't line the shot up, take another breathe and start over. After you have held your breathe for 8-10 seconds, your hold will get steadily worse as your oxygen is depleted. You also need to be well hydrated on the day of your competition. The better hydrated you are the better your blood will be able to carry oxygen to your eyes and muscles. With all that in mind, a blinder may not be appropriate for 3-gun but the technique of relaxing your non-dominant eye may help with increasing the amount of time you have for each shot. Try lightly closing your non-dominant eye, and if you can leave it open and concentrate on your dominant eye. It will take some getting used to, but if you can leave both eyes open and still get a good sight picture it will be easier to shoot in the long run. Watch the guys that are doing well in the competitions that you go to and do what they do. Most will help you get over each plateau. |
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When I first assembled my PSA AR, the trigger was so bad that I considered it virtually unusable for the kind of shooting you are doing (going for smallest groups). I did a little polishing on the trigger and some work on my shooting process and my AR is now a consistent .75 MOA gun with 55 gr FJM/BT.
Sam |
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Horrnady 55gr fmcj-bt w/c
OK, for FMJ bullets these are probably the best as far as inexpensive plinking bullets go. That said, they are not nearly as accurate as a quality bullets like Sierra, Nosler or Hornady Match. If you want to know the accuracy potential of your rifle go with the best. Get some Sierra Matchkings and see what they will do. My two 1-9 twist Colts love the 53gr MatchKIng. IMO if the rifle can't shoot good groups with Sierra, it will never shoot good groups. BTW, my Colts don't shoot the 55gr V-Max any better than they do the FMJ, they just don't like em much. |
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My rifles like around 24.-25.0 of H335. When it comes to overall length with projectile that have cannelures I ignore books and seat to close to the top of the cannelure.
LIKE: 
If you are working up loads without a lot of magnification, try them out at 50 yards and see what you get. |
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Quoted:
When I first assembled my PSA AR, the trigger was so bad that I considered it virtually unusable for the kind of shooting you are doing (going for smallest groups). I did a little polishing on the trigger and some work on my shooting process and my AR is now a consistent .75 MOA gun with 55 gr FJM/BT. Sam I know there has been some concerns about polishing the trigger. What exactly did you do to yours? Did you also get reduced springs? |
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Quoted:
Horrnady 55gr fmcj-bt w/c
OK, for FMJ bullets these are probably the best as far as inexpensive plinking bullets go. That said, they are not nearly as accurate as a quality bullets like Sierra, Nosler or Hornady Match. If you want to know the accuracy potential of your rifle go with the best. Get some Sierra Matchkings and see what they will do. My two 1-9 twist Colts love the 53gr MatchKIng. IMO if the rifle can't shoot good groups with Sierra, it will never shoot good groups. BTW, my Colts don't shoot the 55gr V-Max any better than they do the FMJ, they just don't like em much. This rifle is not really for super tight accuracy. I'm only shooting a 2 gun competition and most of the stuff is up close and personal. Every once and a while I would have to be able to hit a 8" plate at 100 yards but my first reloads made me think or know that would be impossible. I now have my loads closer to what I expected and will work on the load to see if I can tighten them up. However, I will get some of the match bullets at a later date to see what the rifle is really capable of. |
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Reshoot the last two charges and shoot 10 to 15 rounds into each target. Try to call flyers for the conditions. If you let the shot go when the wind gusts, then make an honest judgement about whether that was the cause for the flyer. Those last two targets make me wonder if you're jerking the trigger or bumping the gun; doesn't take much. +1 Of course, I wasn't there when you were shooting but it looks like some of the fliers were caused by loss of trigger control. I don't know how much experience you have, so please don't take that the wrong way. One thing that I do to help fix my trigger control issues is dry firing. If you are looking at the target and not focused on the front sight/cross hair, your group will be wildly open. Dry fire while focusing intensly on the front sight/cross hair and notice after the break if the sight moves at all. Your first dry fire might be perfect, but after a few trigger pulls your habits are going to show up and help you see what's going on. Also pay close attention to how you are placing your finger on the trigger each shot. It should be they same every time and allow you to pull the trigger straight back. The 24.3gr group looks like you had too much finger on the two right shots and then jerked the trigger for the flier, but it could also be loss of focus or inconsistent charging during reloading. 24.9gr looks good. I think that you might have found the best charge. Try carefully loading 10 to 20rds of 24.9gr and then try again at the range. Shoot a group of 10, then try mixing in some dry fire drills with the next group of 10 (on a second target). See if you notice any difference in the groups. Good luck. I am not taking anything in the wrong way. I think you hit something when you talked about the trigger. The trigger is just a stock trigger and could use some work (a new trigger in the budget soon). I did notice that when I was shooting since the trigger pull is so rough that by the time the shot broke, my left eye was twitching and I would have to refocus to make he shot. I also have to work on my breathing. I think doing dry fire exercises would speed up my trigger pull, which would allow me to aquire the target and squeeze the trigger without having to refocus or restart my breathing technique. Thanks for the advice. My first serious mentor told me that a nice two stage trigger was the first thing to install in any AR you were serious about using for target work. I tried everyway around that, with burnishing sears, running lighter springs, etc. Nothing worked as well as changing to a two stage. IMO, good triggers are not cheap, but will yield satisfaction to the frustrated shooter. |
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Quoted: Quoted: When I first assembled my PSA AR, the trigger was so bad that I considered it virtually unusable for the kind of shooting you are doing (going for smallest groups). I did a little polishing on the trigger and some work on my shooting process and my AR is now a consistent .75 MOA gun with 55 gr FJM/BT. Sam I know there has been some concerns about polishing the trigger. What exactly did you do to yours? Did you also get reduced springs? I'd have to look up the videos I watched but what I did to my fire control group was VERY roughly based on this: http://www.sargenthome.com/15_Minute_AR_Trigger_Job.htm
Made your link hot. dryflash3 I did NOT cut one of of the legs off my hammer spring. I only bent it a little bit. I did bend the trigger spring a bit. As far as polishing surfaces, I used 1200 grit wet/dry to smooth the surfaces described in the article above. Just smoothed it. A little goes a long way here and you'd be surprised at how quickly you can get the trigger and sear surfaces WAY smoother than they were. This AR was a joy to shoot accurately after the trigger work. Do your own research on this topic before you decide to go this route or take the path of purchasing an aftermarket trigger. It's very easy to ruin FCG parts doing this. S |
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