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Posted: 8/1/2011 7:34:54 PM EDT
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I tried this load yesterday..
Winchester brass [new] IMR4895....47 gr. Hornady 150gr. fmjbt's CCI #34 primers. My rifle functioned well and shot pretty good groups. However it is denting the case mouths..not so bad as to make the cases unusable..but still noticeable. Now here is where the question comes in....a self appointed Garand "guru" at that range tells me this is a pressure sign with the Garand rifle and that my load is too hot......I did point out that the M2 ball surplus I was also shooting was doing the same thing. Do I have a problem with my load or is the problem elsewhere.....or is there even a problem at all? I did not notice any of the classic over pressure signs on any of my cases. |
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NRA's print out of loads acceptable for use in an M1 Garand show 47grns of IMR 4895 and a 150grn bullet is the recommended acceptable max load in a mil case for use with the M1. In a commercial case you should be able to work up to 49grns due to it's thinner walls. |
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What kind of surface are the cases landing on at the range? Is it Concrete or any other hard surface? 30-06 cases are heavy and tend to take a beating hitting a hard surface neck first when hot after firing. If you are shooting in grass and this is happening then look to the rifle.
You can also field strip your rifle, with the bolt out check the ejector by placing the back of a spent case up against the bolt face using the extractor to help hold the case while pushing the case against the bolt face. I may not have explained this well but what you are checking is ensuring the ejector is operating smoothly. Sometimes crud gets cakes up in an ejector not allowing the spring and plunger to operate smoothly which could force the case against the side of the receiver harder than usual when being extracted. Whatever you do never load a spent case into an M1 or you will have one heck of a time trying to get it out. 
Good luck |
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I won't comment on your load (because I don't remember off the top of my head what mine is - but we're using the same primers, powder and bullets).
My load leaves slighly dirty case necks/shoulders in my SA M1 Garand and does not dent the case mouths. In one of my H&R M1's the cases are cleaner and the case mouth is dented. So, how can it be the load? There's something a little different between the rifles. Both have new op rod springs (well, new a couple of years ago but neither have been shot enough to put wear on the spring). I don't worry about the dents. Be careful (go slow) while running them through the resizing die and dent will be gone. As to military cases being thicker walled in 30.06?? I've weighed LC, HXP, KA, Rem., Win, Fed, etc. 30.06 brass and seen little diference in them. In .308/7.62 brass there is usually a big difference between commercial and military brass weights but not in 30.06. Weigh some cases on your own and see, don't take my word for it. |
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Quoted:
NRA's print out of loads acceptable for use in an M1 Garand show 47grns of IMR 4895 and a 150grn bullet is the recommended acceptable max load in a mil case for use with the M1. In a commercial case you should be able to work up to 49grns due to it's thinner walls. I'ver found through weighing military 30-06 cases against civvie brass the difference is not much difference at all. I've worked up hotter loads with my M1, but have found 47 grains of IMR4895 to be optimal. Soft recoil, good accuracy, and still "fast". I think .308/.223 brass is where the difference really comes into play. |
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Quoted: Quoted: NRA's print out of loads acceptable for use in an M1 Garand show 47grns of IMR 4895 and a 150grn bullet is the recommended acceptable max load in a mil case for use with the M1. In a commercial case you should be able to work up to 49grns due to it's thinner walls. I'ver found through weighing military 30-06 cases against civvie brass the difference is not much difference at all. I've worked up hotter loads with my M1, but have found 47 grains of IMR4895 to be optimal. Soft recoil, good accuracy, and still "fast". I think .308/.223 brass is where the difference really comes into play. HERE is a copy of it I found on the web. Note at the bottom where it states the 2grn reduction for mil brass. |
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There are some commercial cases, Rem for example, which have a very different internal case volume due to the design near the primer cup.
Mil-Surp brass and commercial brass can be the same, but it is best to know what you are using and keep track of the differences. In some loads where the pressure is getting high, the difference between two types of cases is enough to make a hot load get even hotter. Staying on the edge of a hot load wouldn't be prudent in a bolt gun which is less sensitive when compared to a gas semi-auto, so it is certainly not good to run a Garand load that hot in any case. The known good loads for Garands are too easy to use so there is no reason to go looking for trouble. In most instances, the loads were listed using Mil-Spec or Surplus brass with a smaller internal volume than commercial brass. Using LC or a design with a smooth internal design then jumping to something like Rem which goes down and around the primer cup isn't going to raise the pressure, it is going to drop it a little. The best method is to know how much margin you have and what the important parameters are that would take that into the red zone. I don't think denting on case mouths from a Garand is a big deal and I doubt it comes from the recipe listed. |
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Simply reduce your load by 1/2 grain and try again. You may get rid of the dents with no noticeable difference on target. If that doesn't work try another half grain lower.
You can load 46 grains of IMR-4895 with 150's, 155's and 168's and they will all shoot quite well. |
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Quoted:
I won't comment on your load (because I don't remember off the top of my head what mine is - but we're using the same primers, powder and bullets). My load leaves slighly dirty case necks/shoulders in my SA M1 Garand and does not dent the case mouths. In one of my H&R M1's the cases are cleaner and the case mouth is dented. So, how can it be the load? There's something a little different between the rifles. Both have new op rod springs (well, new a couple of years ago but neither have been shot enough to put wear on the spring). I don't worry about the dents. Be careful (go slow) while running them through the resizing die and dent will be gone. As to military cases being thicker walled in 30.06?? I've weighed LC, HXP, KA, Rem., Win, Fed, etc. 30.06 brass and seen little diference in them. In .308/7.62 brass there is usually a big difference between commercial and military brass weights but not in 30.06. Weigh some cases on your own and see, don't take my word for it. \\It just occurred to me...the guy I bought the rifle from, said it has a new set of Wolf springs. Fwiw.....My rifle really likes this load.....first 3 down the tube grouped about the size of a quarter. |
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This is not really a problem. Load is good... is it reasonably accurate? does it function the autoloading system of the rifle? continue and reload the brass. You should see what my HK91 does to brass.. and I reload fired cases with impunity.
The difference in capacity between 30-06 commercial and military brass is usually not too much. (You can always get an idea of relative case capacity by weighing cases (make sure that they are all the same, so measuring apples to apples, fired, unfired, trimmed, etc.)). Weigh samples and draw your own conclusions. This is not so much the case with 7.62 x51 vs. commercial .308 Win. cases. The mil. brass is heavier, therefore thicker, therefore has less capacity, therefore needs to be loaded a little down from commercial brass. With .308 brass, Winchester commercial brass is lighter than Rem. (Norma is the lightest and therefore has the most capacity.) BTW. the gas system of the Garand with port near the end of the barrel is not the greatest. In WWII they found out that IMR 4895 worked and so they made boxcars of it, but in a bolt rifle with the 30-06 cartridge, you would load a slower powder for most efficient performance. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I won't comment on your load (because I don't remember off the top of my head what mine is - but we're using the same primers, powder and bullets). My load leaves slighly dirty case necks/shoulders in my SA M1 Garand and does not dent the case mouths. In one of my H&R M1's the cases are cleaner and the case mouth is dented. So, how can it be the load? There's something a little different between the rifles. Both have new op rod springs (well, new a couple of years ago but neither have been shot enough to put wear on the spring). I don't worry about the dents. Be careful (go slow) while running them through the resizing die and dent will be gone. As to military cases being thicker walled in 30.06?? I've weighed LC, HXP, KA, Rem., Win, Fed, etc. 30.06 brass and seen little diference in them. In .308/7.62 brass there is usually a big difference between commercial and military brass weights but not in 30.06. Weigh some cases on your own and see, don't take my word for it. \\It just occurred to me...the guy I bought the rifle from, said it has a new set of Wolf springs. Fwiw.....My rifle really likes this load.....first 3 down the tube grouped about the size of a quarter. Get rid of the Wolf Op-Rod spring and get one from Orion instead. The Wolf springs are known to cause problems with Garands and are a nono. As far as your picture above dents are again completely normal. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Do you have a pic of the brass? Just curious. This as bad as they got.. http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL611/2657297/5302578/397948385.jpg That looks normal to me. |
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Yup. If thats all it is, keep going. You may see this come and go.
If all else is well, then this is nothing to worry about. Just make sure the decap pin goes in smooth and opens the dents without crushing the case. One thing you might try, is to run your load through another Garand and compare what happens. Do you have any similar loads to run through your gun? There is a section for Garands on the M14 forum with many experts as well. If it really bothers you and it won't debug, you might asking there too. Cheers. |
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Quoted:
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NRA's print out of loads acceptable for use in an M1 Garand show 47grns of IMR 4895 and a 150grn bullet is the recommended acceptable max load in a mil case for use with the M1. In a commercial case you should be able to work up to 49grns due to it's thinner walls. I'ver found through weighing military 30-06 cases against civvie brass the difference is not much difference at all. I've worked up hotter loads with my M1, but have found 47 grains of IMR4895 to be optimal. Soft recoil, good accuracy, and still "fast". I think .308/.223 brass is where the difference really comes into play. HERE is a copy of it I found on the web. Note at the bottom where it states the 2grn reduction for mil brass. I'm in agreement with you, I too have read that its the case (no pun intended!). I was clued it its more of a guideline versus a rule on the CMP forum. The 30-06 cases I have are all very similiar, and its quite the assortment I use. I think best results are achieved weighing individual cases to be sure. Molon weighed and sectioned 5.56 cases from LC, and found LC brass to actually hold more water/powder than civvie brass. He did a very good right up on the topic in the Ammunition forum. I'll try digging it up. |
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Get rid of the Wolf Op-Rod spring and get one from Orion instead. The Wolf springs are known to cause problems with Garands and are a nono. As far as your picture above dents are again completely normal. What's the problem with the Wolff M1 springs? I just bought one and it works ok so far. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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