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Posted: 3/15/2011 7:13:13 PM EDT
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I'm working up an IMR 4064 load for my 26" 1in10 308 Win today. Have manuals on my left and right. Phone in front of me beside press, having been on phone several times today with Sierra, Hodgdons and Hornady. I'm using IMR 4064 with my 208's.
Junior has a 20" 1in10 308 Win and using Reloader 17 to push his 208 Amax bullets. Have been on various web sites to verify burn rates.... It would seem to me Reloader 17 burns way too slow for his 20" barrel. He's having issues with bullet stabilization after 900 plus yards. It seems to me he needs a faster burning powder like Reloader 15 or Win 748... I don't think IMR 4064 will push a 208 fast to stay stabilized out past 900 yards. Thoughts from them that know ?? |
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how much powder is he using and what kind of brass?
you really need to use WIN brass and load it hot. on JBM ballistics if you can get 2500fps (which shouldn't be too hard to do) you should still have over 1300fps at 1k yds. check out this thread on SH. they go into a lot of detail on the 208s and RL17: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1299481#Post1299481 |
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Crank up the twist and the load. Reloder 17 might be a little fast for a 208 grain bullet and his speed is getting cut off by chamber pressure before the case is full of powder and the potential speed from the barrel is realized.
But, he's never going to see Palma speeds from that dinky barrel. I have hesitated to buy a .308 Win rifle with an 18 or 20 inch for this reason, relatively low speeds. I suspect the right answer is to use these short barreled rifles where they work best, and long range rifles for the shots where every bit of speed is needed to counter the wind, no matter which bullet is launched. |
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Quoted:
...and using Reloader 17 to push his 208 Amax bullets. ...It would seem to me Reloader 17 burns way too slow for his 20" barrel. .....needs a faster burning powder like Reloader 15 or Win 748... There is no "A" in the brand name RelOder". I worked in the Hercules plant that developed that propellant. Edited because my first reply was too wiseass. |
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Quoted:
how much powder is he using and what kind of brass? you really need to use WIN brass and load it hot. on JBM ballistics if you can get 2500fps (which shouldn't be too hard to do) you should still have over 1300fps at 1k yds. check out this thread on SH. they go into a lot of detail on the 208s and RL17: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1299481#Post1299481 He's hot enough to be at 1400 plus fps at 1000 yards. Originally posted by AeroE
Crank up the twist and the load. Reloder 17 might be a little fast for a 208 grain bullet and his speed is getting cut off by chamber pressure before the case is full of powder and the potential speed from the barrel is realized. But, he's never going to see Palma speeds from that dinky barrel. I have hesitated to buy a .308 Win rifle with an 18 or 20 inch for this reason, relatively low speeds. I suspect the right answer is to use these short barreled rifles where they work best, and long range rifles for the shots where every bit of speed is needed to counter the wind, no matter which bullet is launched. Thanks, I was working the wrong way for burn rate. Originally posted by ArmyOrdGuy
There is no "A" in the brand name RelOder". I worked in the Hercules plant that developed that propellant. Edited because my first reply was too wiseass Like I've never posted a wiseass response...... You need'nt spare me the niceties. How was that spelled again ?? RelOder 15....... 
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If he's loading to magazine length, I'll bet that bullet is taking up more than its share of the case volume, too.
All in all, the choice of a really heavy and looonng VLD bullet for this cartridge, twist, and low speed is conspiring to stack everything the wrong direction. Quoted:
... There is no "A" in the brand name RelOder". I worked in the Hercules plant that developed that propellant. Edited because my first reply was too wiseass. Are you one of those guys that used to blow up the plant over near Carthage, Missouri about once a year when I was a kid?  My mom and dad worked at the Sunflower powder plant in Lawrence, Kansas in the early 50's; I think that was a government owned plant, but I don't know.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
... There is no "A" in the brand name RelOder". I worked in the Hercules plant that developed that propellant. Edited because my first reply was too wiseass. Are you one of those guys that used to blow up the plant over near Carthage, Missouri about once a year when I was a kid? My mom and dad worked at the Sunflower powder plant in Lawrence, Kansas in the early 50's; I think that was a government owned plant, but I don't know.
The Sunflower Army Ammunition plant was a GOCO plant (government owned/company operated) just like Lake City. I worked at the Kenvil, NJ Hercules Inc plant which produced the entire Hercules commercial smokeless propellant lines and commercial explosives in the 1960's. Like any propellant/explosives plant, we occasionally blew up something or other. The biggest blast we had when I was there was on the commercial propellant manufacturing small gage railway line. The train would take the propellant in one end of a processing step building and out the other end when completed. It would then go into the next building for the next step. The buildings were far enough apart so that if one blew, it wouldn't propagate. That day, one building blew and shot flame and blast up and down the tracks. The building on both ends then blew. I was an hour late for work that day and missed the event by a half hour. Two were injured and one killed (he didn't even belong in the area. A porter taking a short cut through on a bike). |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
... There is no "A" in the brand name RelOder". I worked in the Hercules plant that developed that propellant. Edited because my first reply was too wiseass. Are you one of those guys that used to blow up the plant over near Carthage, Missouri about once a year when I was a kid? My mom and dad worked at the Sunflower powder plant in Lawrence, Kansas in the early 50's; I think that was a government owned plant, but I don't know.
The Sunflower Army Ammunition plant was a GOCO plant (government owned/company operated) just like Lake City. I worked at the Kenvil, NJ Hercules Inc plant which produced the entire Hercules commercial smokeless propellant lines and commercial explosives in the 1960's. Like any propellant/explosives plant, we occasionally blew up something or other. The biggest blast we had when I was there was on the commercial propellant manufacturing small gage railway line. The train would take the propellant in one end of a processing step building and out the other end when completed. It would then go into the next building for the next step. The buildings were far enough apart so that if one blew, it wouldn't propagate. That day, one building blew and shot flame and blast up and down the tracks. The building on both ends then blew. I was an hour late for work that day and missed the event by a half hour. Two were injured and one killed (he didn't even belong in the area. A porter taking a short cut through on a bike). We just had a mixer at the mixhouse blow up last Thursday. No one was injured but they aren't making powder for a few more days now. |
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There is no other powder that'll push the 208s to 2500+ within safe pressures as far as I know. Might try win brass, diff throat, barrel.
The ext ballistics seem to be worth chasing this load around. Also there are some 208 BTHPs hitting the shelves right now and you can try 210 VLDs |
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We've discussed switching to Winchester brass. Hornady lists Win 748 @ 2,450 fps. So getting to 2500 fps with 208 Amax isn't much of a stretch in .308 Win.
His oal is at 2.865, averaging 2510 fps, ES low teens, SD single digits and doesn't show anything noteworthy for pressure. No problems with brass some 7 to 8 loadings later. Case volume is the issue now and there's no room left in magazine. There's talk of modifying magazine to make way for longer oal. So, it's either, "good as it gets" or "what powder". scenario. He's going to switch to Winchester and if that doesn't work extend oal... He's pushed the edge off the envelope and asking for a bit more it sounds like to me... Which is the reason I've posted to bounce a few things off this board. I've watched him get this round on at a grand and pound the hell out of LaRue pop-up all day long, he's determined to use this rifle, he's demanding more consistency, whether he gets it or not depends on getting that last inch out of a round that's pretty much gave it's all in a 1\10 20" barrel. |
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Quoted:
Read through the SH thread. There's a lot of good info on there. I think you can also use VV N550 and an IMR powder (4831, I think) Good call on the N550, or perhaps the N560? Let's face it, the 210gr class of bullets is heavy for the 308 and then throw in the ultra long VLD bullets like the 208 AMAX and you have potential problems. Reading through the SnipersHide thread a couple of times, it seems that the common denominators for making the 208s work at distance, in a 308 case, are 1) RL-17 and/or similar high energy powder and 2) guys shooting at a few thousand feet elevation, or more, where the air is thinner. I have my stuff already to load up and I'll be wondering if I can get the velocity at sea level and in humid conditions, that others are getting. Chris |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Read through the SH thread. There's a lot of good info on there. I think you can also use VV N550 and an IMR powder (4831, I think) Good call on the N550, or perhaps the N560? Let's face it, the 210gr class of bullets is heavy for the 308 and then throw in the ultra long VLD bullets like the 208 AMAX and you have potential problems. Reading through the SnipersHide thread a couple of times, it seems that the common denominators for making the 208s work at distance, in a 308 case, are 1) RL-17 and/or similar high energy powder and 2) guys shooting at a few thousand feet elevation, or more, where the air is thinner. I have my stuff already to load up and I'll be wondering if I can get the velocity at sea level and in humid conditions, that others are getting. Chris i think N560 would work too. you should be able to get decent velocities. i shot with some guys in eufala, al and they were able to get 2700fps out of 26" barrel .308's. |
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Quoted:
how much powder is he using and what kind of brass? you really need to use WIN brass and load it hot. on JBM ballistics if you can get 2500fps (which shouldn't be too hard to do) you should still have over 1300fps at 1k yds. check out this thread on SH. they go into a lot of detail on the 208s and RL17: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1299481#Post1299481 He's hot enough to be at 1400 plus fps at 1000 yards. Originally posted by AeroE
Crank up the twist and the load. Reloder 17 might be a little fast for a 208 grain bullet and his speed is getting cut off by chamber pressure before the case is full of powder and the potential speed from the barrel is realized. But, he's never going to see Palma speeds from that dinky barrel. I have hesitated to buy a .308 Win rifle with an 18 or 20 inch for this reason, relatively low speeds. I suspect the right answer is to use these short barreled rifles where they work best, and long range rifles for the shots where every bit of speed is needed to counter the wind, no matter which bullet is launched. Thanks, I was working the wrong way for burn rate. Originally posted by ArmyOrdGuy
There is no "A" in the brand name RelOder". I worked in the Hercules plant that developed that propellant. Edited because my first reply was too wiseass Like I've never posted a wiseass response...... You need'nt spare me the niceties. How was that spelled again ?? RelOder 15....... in red above....that's not hot with RL-17.....my shooting buddy is right at 1600fps at 1K. his MV is 2650 with 51 gr RL17 and 208 AMAX. you' should get better stability if you get the velocity up a bit.....not sure if you can get it to 2650 in a 20" barrel though |
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