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Posted: 1/1/2011 10:59:26 PM EDT
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I wanted to post the results of my handloads. I will let you know as much detail as I can about the rifle and the reloads as well as my procedures.
Rifle: Bushmaster Lower with A2 Stock/Rifle Length Ext. Geissele Hi-Speed DMR 2 Stage Trigger Larue Stealth Upper w/13.2 Rail 17.5" Stainless Steel Lothar Walther Barrel (Cut down from 18" to remove threads and recrowned by Larue to make it NJ Legal) 1 in 8 poly twist .223 Wylde Chamber Optics: Leupold Mk4 1.5-5x MRT Scope set at 5x Distance is 100yards on a calm 45-50 degrees(F) Jan 1, 2011 My rifle likes the Factory Federal GoldMedal Match 69gr.SMK BTHP so I tried to emulated that load. I fired on a bench at the range with my hand supporting the rifle with the help of a few cushions. Not very steady but good enough I guess as it was getting dark fast. My scope magnification was at max of 5x. My reloads: Lake City 03 Once fired Brass trimmed to 1.75" Remington 7.5 Small Rifle Primers 69 Gr. Sierra MatchKing BTHP Bullets Varget Powder Group 1 -: 24.0gr - 2.049" Group 2 - 24.5gr - 1.015" Group 3 - 25.0gr - 2.000" Group 4 - 25.3gr - 1.432" Group 5 - 25.5gr - 1.508" Group 6 - 24.0gr - 0.654" Group 7 - 24.5gr - 1.424" Group 8 - 25.0gr - 1.210" Group 9 - 25.3gr - 0.492" Take a look http://www.flickr.com/photos/9627706@N03/ That is the order in which I shot the 5 shot groups. I measure the groups by using a caliper to get the reading of the two widest shots in the group and then subtracting the diameter of the average hole which measured to .205 of and inch rather than the actual diameter of the bullet(.224). Yes, the last group made it under half an inch. My first time I've ever done that. Strangely enough, 25.3gr of Varget matches the Sierra accuracy load in the manual. You can see the groups went as high as over 2 inches to below half and inch. I am sure I could do better if I had a scope with higher magnification. I wonder what magnification people use to get their great groups. Anyway, I looked at the primers and they looked fine and saw now pressure signs even on my max load of 25.5grains of Varget which I only loaded 5 rounds. Maybe I'll take a closer look at the cases again later and report back to this thread. I even asked another reloader at the range and he said the primers looked fine. Just to add, I also used the Lee Factory Crimp Die buy lowering the ram to meet the shellholder and then turning the die and additional 1/2 turn (recommened by Lee) and an additional 1/8 turn. This put a slight crimp as I would describe it. The 69gr SMK don't have a cannelure and I've read various thread about whether crimping is recommended or not so I decided to crimp a tad. I felt the recommended 1/2 turn by Lee didn't crimp that much if any while an additional 1/8 turn made a slight crimp. The guy at the range I talked to crimped his rounds where it was noticeable and crimped enough to go into the bullet.I am still learning about about crimping the case mouth. There seems to be a wide range of opinions on what is too little or too much crimp. I think it is known that the SMK BTHP have varying lengths which end up causing varying cartridge overall lengths. When I was seating the bullets I did some dummy rounds and made sure they averaged below the maximum COL of 2.260" because I was loading into a magazine. So my reloads COL measured anywhere between 2.245" to 2.255".Most forums I've read indicate that the ogive is what you need to be concerned about. I am still learning that and hope someone can teach me about that. I have a bullet comparator and Hornady/Stoney Point measuring tool on order. So there it is. My first Reloads.Comments or questions or advice welcomed. |
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Quoted:
My scope goes up to 12x, and that really helps! I think most of your groups would have been below 1.5" is you had better then 5x Yeah i agree...some guys claim to do great with low power but going big really helped me out too.I have up to 18x. I will have to try some of those loads out you did....great report.Thanks! |
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Your question about seating from the ogive and the variability of COAL is simple to explain, and to understand.
Remove the seater stem from your die. Put a bullet inside the seater, notice how it contacts the bullet on the ogive, not on the meplat. Quality HPBT bullets are more or less identical, except at the meplat, which varies due to the method for closing up the tip. But on the ogive where the seater contacts, the diameter of the bullets is identical from one to the next, and the distance from the base of the bullet is the identical from one to the next. That dimension from the base to the contact on the ogive is most important because it determines whether every bullet is seated into every case to the same depth. That means the internal volume of each cartridge is the same, and this is more important than the variation at the meplat. As you adjust the seater, once a good average dimension has been found, every bullet should be seated with that setting. Don't go through the batch seating some to 2.26 inches, then one is found too long, changing the seater to put it at 2.26 inches - that means the bullets are seated to different depths. On crimping premium match bullets - There is no way I would drive a roll crimp into the jacket of a premium bullet. If I thought it was necessary, I would use a taper crimp. But, it's not necessary with correct neck tension. I think you need to reshoot your loads, at least the last three increments. You do not want the best load to occur at the maximum charge weight. Plus, the sudden jump in group size needs to be understood as it's not normal and I suspect your method of supporting the rifle is having a huge influence. |
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Welcome to the reloading club.
I use a FCD in 223 on rounds I load with FMJBT's with a cannelure. No way you could get me to crimp a Match bullet. With proper neck tension, a crimp isn't needed. Measure your sizings die's expander ball. It should be .002 less than the bullet diameter. So for a .224 bullet, it should be .222. If you have a large button, chuck it in a drill and sand smaller with 400 grit sandpaper. Check diameter often, you can't put the metal back on. When you get tied of measuring Varget, switch to RE-15 or IMR-8208 XBR. Same or better accuracy with easier measuring. They will measure within .1 gr when thrown through a powder measure with the right technique. So no weighing each charge. Overall a fine " my first reloads" post. |
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Quoted:
Your question about seating from the ogive and the variability of COAL is simple to explain, and to understand. Remove the seater stem from your die. Put a bullet inside the seater, notice how it contacts the bullet on the ogive, not on the meplat. Quality HPBT bullets are more or less identical, except at the meplat, which varies due to the method for closing up the tip. But on the ogive where the seater contacts, the diameter of the bullets is identical from one to the next, and the distance from the base of the bullet is the identical from one to the next. That dimension from the base to the contact on the ogive is most important because it determines whether every bullet is seated into every case to the same depth. That means the internal volume of each cartridge is the same, and this is more important than the variation at the meplat. As you adjust the seater, once a good average dimension has been found, every bullet should be seated with that setting. Don't go through the batch seating some to 2.26 inches, then one is found too long, changing the seater to put it at 2.26 inches - that means the bullets are seated to different depths. On crimping premium match bullets - There is no way I would drive a roll crimp into the jacket of a premium bullet. If I thought it was necessary, I would use a taper crimp. But, it's not necessary with correct neck tension. I think you need to reshoot your loads, at least the last three increments. You do not want the best load to occur at the maximum charge weight. Plus, the sudden jump in group size needs to be understood as it's not normal and I suspect your method of supporting the rifle is having a huge influence. I appreciate the explanation and will try your method of bullet seating. I'm glad to know when I seated at the average depth of 2.25", the COL was still under maximum and the ogive would be the same for all rounds I made. Crimping match round seems to be a no-no in most peoples opinions so I will also experiments with rounds with no crimps. My only fear is that the bullets will seat deeper by the force of cycling from the mag into the chamber and cause variations. Should I get a Bobsled or a single round follower for a mag and just load one round at a time to eliminate the possibility of the bullet changing it's position in the cartridge? I plan on reshooting those charges again. My max load was actually 25.5gr of varget but my best 5 round group was the second 25.3gr group. I see my method of support as the biggest reason why my groups varied in size and over 2". I don't own a rock solid rest and need to work out a way to keep it solid. Maybe time to invest in a solid rest set up. I also believe that having a scope that had better magnification would help a lot too. At 5x at 100yards, I got it in the general aiming point as best I could, but as you said, my support or lack of it made my groups jump around. Better magnification might help a little bit but if my sight picture bounces around because of a bad support then it becomes a matter of chasing the same aiming point. If I could aim at the exact same aiming point each shot, then I would really be able to tell how my reloads did and could even tell how my rifle shoots without too much human factor. Seems to me that the more you remove the human factor, the better you will be able to judge what your reloads do or for that matter, your rifle and any ammunition. After finding out how your rifle and ammunition act, I suppose the fun also begins in trying to match the accuracy without the aid of a solid rest once you know the capability of the tools. Other things I wanted to also ask is should ladder up until I found signs of excessive pressure? Should I Move up to 10 round groups instead of 5? Should I try different powders like reloder 15 or H335(I have this one unopened) and also try CCI 41 primers(I have this too unopened) or should I stick to the same load for now until I get a more stable rest? I would like to also see how these rounds do at 300 yards, but not having enough scope or a rest would really open up the groups. |
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Quoted:
Welcome to the reloading club. I use a FCD in 223 on rounds I load with FMJBT's with a cannelure. No way you could get me to crimp a Match bullet. With proper neck tension, a crimp isn't needed. Measure your sizings die's expander ball. It should be .002 less than the bullet diameter. So for a .224 bullet, it should be .222. If you have a large button, chuck it in a drill and sand smaller with 400 grit sandpaper. Check diameter often, you can't put the metal back on. When you get tied of measuring Varget, switch to RE-15 or IMR-8208 XBR. Same or better accuracy with easier measuring. They will measure within .1 gr when thrown through a powder measure with the right technique. So no weighing each charge. Overall a fine " my first reloads" post. Thanks. I measure using a Lee Perfect Powder Measure and use a Dillion beam scale with a Redding trickler. My method is set up the measure to throw at under the minimum and then trickle up to the charge weight. It is slow, but I don't mind as I am not in any hurry. Weighing each charge to me is part of the fun right now of learning how to reload. The Lee PPM seems to be good enough for now and I've read people bashing it in different forums. I haven't tried throwing anything other than Varget yet. I do have H335 unopened too. Could you give me your own descriptions of the characteristics of Varget, RE-15 and IMR8208 XBR comparing one another. The Sierra load data indicates 25.3gr of Varget with Remington 7.5 primer as their accuracy load from a Colt AR-15 barrel of 20" I think and assuming a 5.56 chamber. My barrel is 17.5" with a .223 Wylde chamber. I got one great group but need to reshoot it to see if I get consistency, Would a slightly faster burning powder make a difference as well? I am guessing that the shorter your barrel the faster your powder should burn or else you just get a fireball out of the muzzle. Does that mean it is too much powder or to slow of a powder? |
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On rests -
- the rests currently sold at Walmart are pretty good. It's extremely important that your rifle sit on the rests as nearly identical for each shot as possible. Concentrating on the trigger and gun handling is also important. After you shoot long enough you'll start noticing extremely small changes in the way you touch and handle the rifle that can throw a shot out an half inch or more, and anyone watching you would never have a clue. I'll post a photo of a target in a second that has two shots out from gun handling and one from a wind switch that I called. 
This is 8 rounds on the target. 5 was blown out by a gust from left to right just as I broke the shot. 3 was caused by a wierd spastic push I applied to the gun (I have no idea why), and 4 was caused by yanking the trigger (not a shotgun yank, but one that screws up the shot from a target rifle). I shot this with a single shot 40X .308 rifle with an (antique, according to the youngsters here) wood Rangemaster target stock. On wind - - use a rudimentary wind flag hanging on a stick jammed into the ground (or a music stand, or whatever works) about 1/4 to 1/3rd the distance to the target. Pay attention to the wind on your face and neck. Try to shoot when the flag and the breeze at the bench are the same for each shot. Sit and watch the wind without shooting, you'll see the wind cycle through different conditions, more or less over and over with a few variations in to keep it interesting. You don't need a single shot follower. For now, I don't think you need to work to a higher pressure, but if everything is okay, one more charge increment would be okay. Here's what happens with a load that tunes to one charge weight - when the environmental conditions change, the load goes out of tune. What we want is a robust load that shoots well over a half grain or so of variation. I wouldn't switch gunpowder now either until you finish exploring the potential of this one. If conditions are mild, I can sort out 5 round groups pretty well and even get a hint from 3 round groups. There's no doubt that 10 round groups give a much better picture. The only disadvantage is that you must concentrate for a longer period, and the barrel may get so hot it starts to string shots if they are close together. 2.25 COAL is a good choice, many reloaders use that length to get a little more guarantee their ammo will run through the magazine okay. |
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Quoted:
On rests - - the rests currently sold at Walmart are pretty good. It's extremely important that your rifle sit on the rests as nearly identical for each shot as possible. Concentrating on the trigger and gun handling is also important. After you shoot long enough you'll start noticing extremely small changes in the way you touch and handle the rifle that can throw a shot out an half inch or more, and anyone watching you would never have a clue. I'll post a photo of a target in a second that has two shots out from gun handling and one from a wind switch that I called. http://media.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=6835 This is 8 rounds on the target. 5 was blown out by a gust from left to right just as I broke the shot. 3 was caused by a wierd spastic push I applied to the gun (I have no idea why), and 4 was caused by yanking the trigger (not a shotgun yank, but one that screws up the shot from a target rifle). I shot this with a single shot 40X .308 rifle with an (antique, according to the youngsters here) wood Rangemaster target stock. On wind - - use a rudimentary wind flag hanging on a stick jammed into the ground (or a music stand, or whatever works) about 1/4 to 1/3rd the distance to the target. Pay attention to the wind on your face and neck. Try to shoot when the flag and the breeze at the bench are the same for each shot. Sit and watch the wind without shooting, you'll see the wind cycle through different conditions, more or less over and over with a few variations in to keep it interesting. You don't need a single shot follower. For now, I don't think you need to work to a higher pressure, but if everything is okay, one more charge increment would be okay. Here's what happens with a load that tunes to one charge weight - when the environmental conditions change, the load goes out of tune. What we want is a robust load that shoots well over a half grain or so of variation. I wouldn't switch gunpowder now either until you finish exploring the potential of this one. If conditions are mild, I can sort out 5 round groups pretty well and even get a hint from 3 round groups. There's no doubt that 10 round groups give a much better picture. The only disadvantage is that you must concentrate for a longer period, and the barrel may get so hot it starts to string shots if they are close together. 2.25 COAL is a good choice, many reloaders use that length to get a little more guarantee their ammo will run through the magazine okay. A woo, woo, wood stock? What's that? I have never heard of those before. Do you have a link? 
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