Armory Sponsor
Posted: 11/23/2010 8:24:40 PM EDT
|
I have a Square Deal B that I have been using for years to load .45acp. I also have a 550 that I haven't used yet as well as a Rockchucker and a Lyman turret press that I use for small amounts of rifle ammo like .308.
I have read the rates for loading on the SDB, 550 and the 650 and 1050. Their speeds are listed in that order. Why is the 550 rated as faster than the 550, and the 650 as faster than the 550? That one I sort of get since the 550 is manual index versus auto index for the 650. Since they all use a handle, and you have to place the bullet on the case on each how can the 550 be rated faster than the SDB by several hundred rounds per minute? The SDB is rated at 300-500 rounds per hour. The 550 is rated at 400-600 rounds per hour. The 650 at 500-800 rounds per hour and the 1050 at 1000-1200 per hour. What makes each machine faster? I understand that a case feed can speed things up, but if the 550, 650 and 1050 all have a case feed why do they get faster? Jim |
|
I don't have a SDB nor a 1050 but I'm guessing the 550B speed is faster than the the SDB because the SDB is smaller, especially the shell plate. Seems like there'd be a lot of fumble fingering going on. The 550B is slower than the 650 because of the auto index and most 550B users don't use a case feeder. When running smoothly you don't have to ever remove your right hand from the press lever on the 650. You just feed bullets with the left hand and crank up and down with the right. On the 550B you have to remove your right hand to feed in a case. I usually index the shell plate with my left hand. Since indexing isn't anything that can be done in parellel with any of the other steps - feeding bullet, stroking the handle, feeding case - it has to be done in solo and thus eats up extra time. So the 650 has the casefeeder and auto index going for it. Even if you have a case feeder for the 550B, well the 650 has auto indexing going for it. Dillon lists the load rate of the various presses here http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/customize-reloader.html I don't know exactly why the 1050 is faster than the 650. The 1050 looks more well built. Maybe it's the length of the throw of the press handle to operate it or just overall smoothness of operation |
|
Can't speak for the 1050 as I've never seen one. But for the 550 and 650, its a matter of doing more steps for every handle pull. The 550 has four spots for dies, the 650 adds auto indexing and has five. Means I can set it up to decap, resize, charge powder, expand, powder check, seat and crimp at various stations all in one handle pull. Indexing is done for me, so all my left hand has to do is set a bullet and all my right hand has to do is pull a lever. Its just a streamlined process. |
|
If you stage everything, bullets, powder, primer tubes pre-filled, cases, etc....you can easily hit 1200 in an hour with the 650 without really trying to go fast. Just be smooth.
The reality: It is too fast. I enjoy my time at the handle, so I prefer to spread out the effort. |
|
Quoted:
On the 550B you have to remove your right hand to feed in a case. I usually index the shell plate with my left hand. Since indexing isn't anything that can be done in parellel with any of the other steps - feeding bullet, stroking the handle, feeding case - it has to be done in solo and thus eats up extra time. When I run my 550, I index in conjunction with seating the bullet. I add a case, crank the handle. While I'm cranking the handle with my right hand, I'm grabbing a bullet with my left. As I'm raising the handle, I index the shell plate and put the bullet in the case in one motion. Grab a new case, repeat. If I stage full primer tubes (I have 4, so 500 primers at the ready) I can load all 500 in just under an hour. And that's not rushing, when loading pistol, I look in every case before setting the bullet on top to verify correct powder charge. With a case feeder, I bet I could do 600 an hour, maybe more. 1 round every 10 seconds or seems pretty do-able. |
|
I consider their rounds per hour claim an advertisement. I'm not even close to it the way I run my 550B. I figure 350 to 400 rounds per hour is what I produce. I'm loading brass that's already been resized and primed too.
I'm just steady and I also look in every case to insure I got the powder charge right. This is time comsuming, but I sleep a lot easier at night. Between loading the primer tubes, refilling the powder, grabbing more bullets and cases everyones production varies. If I had everything lined up and wanted to go as fast as possible (w/o checking powder drops) I might be able to get to 550 rounds per hour, but I doubt it. |
|
Quoted:
I consider their rounds per hour claim an advertisement. I'm not even close to it the way I run my 550B. I figure 350 to 400 rounds per hour is what I produce. I'm loading brass that's already been resized and primed too. I'm just steady and I also look in every case to insure I got the powder charge right. This is time comsuming, but I sleep a lot easier at night. Between loading the primer tubes, refilling the powder, grabbing more bullets and cases everyones production varies. If I had everything lined up and wanted to go as fast as possible (w/o checking powder drops) I might be able to get to 550 rounds per hour, but I doubt it. I've always thought of it as loading (machine function) at a rate of XXX rounds per hour––similar to the rate of fire for machine guns, but not to mean you actually end up with exactly XXX rounds at the end of each hour of load time. 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I consider their rounds per hour claim an advertisement. I'm not even close to it the way I run my 550B. I figure 350 to 400 rounds per hour is what I produce. I'm loading brass that's already been resized and primed too. I'm just steady and I also look in every case to insure I got the powder charge right. This is time comsuming, but I sleep a lot easier at night. Between loading the primer tubes, refilling the powder, grabbing more bullets and cases everyones production varies. If I had everything lined up and wanted to go as fast as possible (w/o checking powder drops) I might be able to get to 550 rounds per hour, but I doubt it. I've always thought of it as loading (machine function) at a rate of XXX rounds per hour––similar to the rate of fire for machine guns, but not to mean you actually end up with exactly XXX rounds at the end of each hour of load time. That's what I understood too. I was just curious why they were rated faster. I don't understand why an extra station would speed things up so much. After all the stations are full you still only turn out one round with each handle stroke. It doesn't really matter, but I am a nosy SOB. My SDB loads .45acp pretty quickly. I can't figure how it could get a lot faster going to a 650. Is the load rate on the 550 and 650 conditional on using a case feed? I can see how a case feed would speed things up. BTW, to a poster earlier, what is an automatic bullet feed? How does an electric motor speed things up on a 1050? Don't you still have to place the bullet on the case? Jim |
|
Rounds per hour is nothing more than hype. Expanding on Beekeepers post. Mechanically speaking presses have different indexing rates. Usually, higher the price, higher the index rate. One of my friends and reloading mentor has a 1050. He used to work the tech desk at Graf & Sons.
I spent some time on his press some time back loading 9mm with 5.8 grains of 3N37. It's a compacted load after bullet seat. Meaning case is 3/4 full. 250 - 300 rounds is plenty fast with 3/4 powder case fill, anything faster and 1050 was slinging powder. |
|
Yes speed is all about the auto indexing.
On the 650 the index is rather abrupt and you have to slow your stroke speed down to keep from throwing powder out of the cases. You CAN get the rhythm where you move fast and brake right as index starts but its an acquired skill to be really smooth at it. Another issue can be the powder funnel used - and the fact that some larger capacity cases might need an extra second of dwell time to allow a complete powder drop. |
|
Quoted: Auto indexing is what helps the 650. Actually no. The speed increase on the 650 is primarily the result of the casefeeder because you don't have to let go of the handle, grab a case, feed it, then grab the handle again. I used my 550 to reload 70,000+ rounds and I could easily produce 500 rds of 45acp in 55 minutes because I had my setup ergonomically correct for increased speed. If you set up your 550 so that the cases and bullets are close to the machine it cuts down excess movements. Note the custom bullet and case bins that keep the supplies up at the working height.  Here's a picture of the bullet bin bracket I made for the Acro bin. It's made from the finished bullet bracket shipped with the 550 but not used when your press is installed on strongmounts. It's screwed to a 2x4 that's lag bolted to the leg and drilled for the allen wrenches to store them efficiently.  I also made a case bin bracket before Dillon came out with their version.  When I sold it and got my 650 w/casefeeder, I could load over 900rds of 45acp in the same time because I wasn't pausing to grab a case and feed it.  Note again that I made a custom bullet bin using the 550 finished bullet bracket that comes with the 550 strongmount. In addition, I made another custom tool holder, this time from a 4x4.   |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I consider their rounds per hour claim an advertisement. I'm not even close to it the way I run my 550B. I figure 350 to 400 rounds per hour is what I produce. I'm loading brass that's already been resized and primed too. I'm just steady and I also look in every case to insure I got the powder charge right. This is time comsuming, but I sleep a lot easier at night. Between loading the primer tubes, refilling the powder, grabbing more bullets and cases everyones production varies. If I had everything lined up and wanted to go as fast as possible (w/o checking powder drops) I might be able to get to 550 rounds per hour, but I doubt it. I've always thought of it as loading (machine function) at a rate of XXX rounds per hour––similar to the rate of fire for machine guns, but not to mean you actually end up with exactly XXX rounds at the end of each hour of load time. That's what I understood too. I was just curious why they were rated faster. I don't understand why an extra station would speed things up so much. After all the stations are full you still only turn out one round with each handle stroke. It doesn't really matter, but I am a nosy SOB. My SDB loads .45acp pretty quickly. I can't figure how it could get a lot faster going to a 650. Is the load rate on the 550 and 650 conditional on using a case feed? I can see how a case feed would speed things up. BTW, to a poster earlier, what is an automatic bullet feed? http://www.mrbulletfeeder.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_xPmkSuAYQ How does an electric motor speed things up on a 1050? The drive unit speeds things up by letting you do other things beside pull the handle. Doing things like filling primer tubes from a RF100, doing QC checks on the loaded rnds ( in the case of pistol ammo gauging them ) and or any number of things that you could not do while pulling the handle. Don't you still have to place the bullet on the case? Not if using the bullet feeder or using a bullet seating die that has a window in it to just drop the bullet in on the up stroke. Jim Things like this are more geared for the high volume reloader. |
|
ETA "Necessity is the mother of invention"
Quoted:
Quoted:
Auto indexing is what helps the 650. Actually no. The speed increase on the 650 is primarily the result of the casefeeder because you don't have to let go of the handle, grab a case, feed it, then grab the handle again. I used my 550 to reload 70,000+ rounds and I could easily produce 500 rds of 45acp in 55 minutes because I had my setup ergonomically correct for increased speed. If you set up your 550 so that the cases and bullets are close to the machine it cuts down excess movements. Note the custom bullet and case bins that keep the supplies up at the working height. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/Coloradoglocker/100_1768.jpg Here's a picture of the bullet bin bracket I made for the Acro bin. It's made from the finished bullet bracket shipped with the 550 but not used when your press is installed on strongmounts. It's screwed to a 2x4 that's lag bolted to the leg and drilled for the allen wrenches to store them efficiently. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/Coloradoglocker/BulletBracket.jpg I also made a case bin bracket before Dillon came out with their version. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/Coloradoglocker/CaseBracket.jpg When I sold it and got my 650 w/casefeeder, I could load over 900rds of 45acp in the same time because I wasn't pausing to grab a case and feed it. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/Coloradoglocker/100_2025.jpg Note again that I made a custom bullet bin using the 550 finished bullet bracket that comes with the 550 strongmount. In addition, I made another custom tool holder, this time from a 4x4. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/Coloradoglocker/100_2063.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/Coloradoglocker/100_2062.jpg Very cool . Dillon should hire you to do product development for them. They could use the help. 
|
|
Motors for the 1050 are set speeds........ 900rpm (for rifle) and 1200rpm (for pistol)
Dillon also does not condone the use of them, it voids any factory warranty I believe. Just like everything else, it will only hold 100 primers at a time. You have to stop and reload them when needed. The Mr. Bulletfeeder option is great, but it's another cash addition to the press. With the drive motor and bullet feeder you are looking at $1400-1500 in addition to your 1050 base price. And the bulletfeeder is only good for one (sort of) caliber. The 1050 also has a 7 position head. There are extra steps going on that may have already been done in other machines. All of this being said, I love my 1050's. |
|
Quoted:
Motors for the 1050 are set speeds........ 900rpm (for rifle) and 1200rpm (for pistol) Dillon also does not condone the use of them, it voids any factory warranty I believe. Just like everything else, it will only hold 100 primers at a time. You have to stop and reload them when needed. The Mr. Bulletfeeder option is great, but it's another cash addition to the press. With the drive motor and bullet feeder you are looking at $1400-1500 in addition to your 1050 base price. And the bulletfeeder is only good for one (sort of) caliber. The 1050 also has a 7 position head. There are extra steps going on that may have already been done in other machines. All of this being said, I love my 1050's. Thanks for all the replies. The only way I get more out of my SDB is to keep primer pick-up tubes filled and ready. I have a plastic bin with brass close to my right hand and a metal bowl with bullets near my left. Didn't I see an automatic primer flipper/filler? I thought there was something that you just dumped primers in and it filled the tube. Jim |
|
Quoted:
Thanks for all the replies. The only way I get more out of my SDB is to keep primer pick-up tubes filled and ready. I have a plastic bin with brass close to my right hand and a metal bowl with bullets near my left. Didn't I see an automatic primer flipper/filler? I thought there was something that you just dumped primers in and it filled the tube. Jim They aren't cheap. Run you almost as much as your press. I just can't justify the cost. I can load a LOT of primers by hand for $300... http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/23476/catid/9/Dillon_RF_100_Sm___Euro__220v_ |
|
Quoted:
Motors for the 1050 are set speeds........ 900rpm (for rifle) and 1200rpm (for pistol) But you can get extra gear unit and have both speeds Dillon also does not condone the use of them, it voids any factory warranty I believe. Which is only one year on the S1050 anyway. The S1050 is built like a tank if someone forked it up they must have been doing some real stupid $hit. Just like everything else, it will only hold 100 primers at a time. You have to stop and reload them when needed. I'm on an auto drive and when using the Mr bullet feeder I don't stop to add primer. I do stop to add powder. The Mr. Bulletfeeder option is great, but it's another cash addition to the press. With the drive motor and bullet feeder you are looking at $1400-1500 in addition to your 1050 base price. And the bulletfeeder is only good for one (sort of) caliber. The Mr Bullet feeder can be converted for other cal. cost was about $150..00 to change over The 1050 also has a 7 position head.There are extra steps going on that may have already been done in other machines. True with the number of stations on the S1050 your options are almost endless. All of this being said, I love my 1050's. [blue]But not as much as I love mine[/span] |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Auto indexing is what helps the 650. Actually no.... I was assuming both have the casefeeder. At that point, the only difference is auto indexing. Are you saying the auto indexing is no faster than manually turning the shellplate? While I am sure there are 550 folks that are faster than me and my 650, it would be a wrong to say that most are. Just because Jerry Miculek can run a sixgun faster than I can run a semi auto doesn't mean the sixgun is faster than a semi auto. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Auto indexing is what helps the 650. Actually no.... I was assuming both have the casefeeder. At that point, the only difference is auto indexing. Are you saying the auto indexing is no faster than manually turning the shellplate? While I am sure there are 550 folks that are faster than me and my 650, it would be a wrong to say that most are. Just because Jerry Miculek can run a sixgun faster than I can run a semi auto doesn't mean the sixgun is faster than a semi auto. His is! 
If I didn't have the SDB I would use my 550 for loading .45acp and add a case feed. I bought the 550 from dad years ago intending to just load .223, but I haven't been shooting my AR much. Lately all I have time for is to shoot pistol matches. I am really hoping things settle down some next year and I can take my Les Baer AR out to play. If that happens the 550 will be basically dedicated to .223. The SDB turns out ammo quickly enough for me. What I understand from reading a lot of people actually prefer the 550 because of the manual index. I have had an occaisional problem while loading for my .45 and since it has auto index I have to remove the pins and the cases to back up, and to check the powder charge. With the 550 all I would have to do is pull the case I want to check. All the questions about the load rate was just curiosity. It really doesn't make any difference to me. I just couldn't figure out why some were rated so much faster. I do wish they made a case feed for the SDB. The closest I can get to one is when my kids want to help daddy load ammo. They will stand there for an hour putting cases on the base plate- or until they get bored. Jim |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Auto indexing is what helps the 650. Actually no.... I was assuming both have the casefeeder. At that point, the only difference is auto indexing. Are you saying the auto indexing is no faster than manually turning the shellplate? While I am sure there are 550 folks that are faster than me and my 650, it would be a wrong to say that most are. Just because Jerry Miculek can run a sixgun faster than I can run a semi auto doesn't mean the sixgun is faster than a semi auto. It's simple to locate your bullets close to your press and then develop a rhythm. Here's how I did it when I had my 550B. Grad a small handful of bullets. Note: My custom bullet bin is up close to the press for good ergonomics.  Rotate a bullet into position between thumb and forefinger and place your thumb on the star wheel as the shellplate is coming down.  Push the start wheel forward while you're grabbing a fresh case with your right hand.  Set a bullet while you're re-grabbing the handle.  Dillon's speed claims for the 550B don't include the casefeeder while they do include it on their XL650. Why? Because that's the way both machines were designed. They initially claimed a 25% speed increase when adding the casefeeder to a 550B, however, in their Dec 2010 Blue Book, they've dropped any increased speed claims in the casefeeder add. The reason that a casefeeder is the overwhelming contributor to an increase in throughput is the fact that you don't have to let go of the handle, find and grab a case, orient it with the base down, place it on the Roller Bracket Shell Platform, slide it into position under station #1, and then grab the press handle again. With a casefeeder, your right hand never leaves the handle and you only have to pause a ½ count to make sure all your powder has dropped. Much, much simpler process with fewer steps means faster cycling the press. And, all you have to concentrate on with your left hand is placing the bullet. That said, a friend of mine has two 550Bs and he added a casefeeder to one. He found out that the retro fit auto feed mechanism on the 550B isn't as smooth as the one designed into XL650. He also says it's a bit more finicky to keep running. When I asked him why he didn't just sell both 550Bs and buy a new XL650 with a casefeeder, he answered, "After a year with the casefeeder, I'm thinking that's what I should have done. I thought it would really help for my 9mm and 45acp but the speed increase isn't what I hoped for." |
|
Quoted:
Hey Jim, I could use a Dillon 550 if you aren't going to use yours... :) I didn't say I wasn't going to use it. I just haven't yet. When are you going to come shoot against me? I finally changed out the crappy B-Square mount on my 1911 and installed a Weigand mount. I won centerfire, but had a wheel problem in rimfire- they came off. My plan for next month is to win high overall in rimfire and centerfire. With my luck Mitch and Craig will be having the match of their lives. Jim |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Hey Jim, I could use a Dillon 550 if you aren't going to use yours... :) I didn't say I wasn't going to use it. I just haven't yet. When are you going to come shoot against me? I finally changed out the crappy B-Square mount on my 1911 and installed a Weigand mount. I won centerfire, but had a wheel problem in rimfire- they came off. My plan for next month is to win high overall in rimfire and centerfire. With my luck Mitch and Craig will be having the match of their lives. Jim When's the next match? We'll both come shoot against you, she actually may have a better chance of beating you than I currently do now (for the past several months I have been fighting tendonitis in my right forearm and unable to shoot much). |
|
Quoted:
I consider their rounds per hour claim an advertisement. I'm not even close to it the way I run my 550B. I figure 350 to 400 rounds per hour is what I produce. I'm loading brass that's already been resized and primed too. I'm just steady and I also look in every case to insure I got the powder charge right. This is time comsuming, but I sleep a lot easier at night. Between loading the primer tubes, refilling the powder, grabbing more bullets and cases everyones production varies. If I had everything lined up and wanted to go as fast as possible (w/o checking powder drops) I might be able to get to 550 rounds per hour, but I doubt it. I'm the same way, approx 400 rounds per hour with pistol rounds. I keep it slow enough to look at my powder drop/case fill level and see/feel my primer seating. I watch the primer shuttle to see that it's actually not empty. I'm even slower with rifle, partly due to the smaller bullets and my fat fingers, and the fact I'm resizing and trimming my brass prior. I have a modified method with rifle on the 550, crank the handle to charge, seat, crimp, then I insert the brass on station 1 and prime, then rotate. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hey Jim, I could use a Dillon 550 if you aren't going to use yours... :) I didn't say I wasn't going to use it. I just haven't yet. When are you going to come shoot against me? I finally changed out the crappy B-Square mount on my 1911 and installed a Weigand mount. I won centerfire, but had a wheel problem in rimfire- they came off. My plan for next month is to win high overall in rimfire and centerfire. With my luck Mitch and Craig will be having the match of their lives. Jim When's the next match? We'll both come shoot against you, she actually may have a better chance of beating you than I currently do now (for the past several months I have been fighting tendonitis in my right forearm and unable to shoot much). It's the third Saturday of December. Next year it is changing to the second Saturday of each month. Tendonitis? I have that at the base of both thumbs. That's why I have been barely winning in rimfire. The grips I have on the Ruger hurt to hold, but they are better than the other grips I have tried. The 1911 isn't uncomfortable at all. Ya'll come on. I need Dr Pepper!
Jim |
|
I had a Hornady projector press for a short while until I pulled all my hair out. I then bought a Dillon 550, I was shocked that I had to manual turn the shell plate. But as others found out, pick up a bullet, turn the shell plate, put bullet on case and crank the handle. The 550 was much faster than the projector. I was at the 500 round an hour mark if I had 10 primer tubes loaded, this is for pistol rounds, 400 RPH for 223.
I've had a 650, and it's a step up speed wise from the 550. 1000 rounds in an hour was easy for pistol, and 900 RPH for 223. It did have a case feeder The 1050 is my favorite Dillon machine, they are in a different league. The priming is very precise, one of the indexing pins goes through the primer slide to make sure the cup is lined up. I had some trouble with the priming system on the 550, usually spilled powder of grit under the priming bar. WHen it jammed, it just needed cleaned. The 650 priming was a cleaner system, but I always got a few flipped primers. The 1050 priming system also with throw you a curve, but it's less often then the 550 or 650. The 1050 has a stepped cup in the primer bar, debris falls out the bottom, so you dont get a grain of powder under the primer like you can with a 550. Is priming on the downstroke faster vs the 650 or 550, hell YES. Adjustable primer seating depth is also priceless, and primer seating depth is very consistent. Overall, I think the 1050 is also faster due to it being a smoother machine, even with the added bearing on the 650, the 1050 is smoother indexing. I can load 1400 RPH for pistol, and 1200 rounds per hour in rifle, these numbers are for rounds in the bucket. I case prep 223 on a 1050 at 2000 RPH. last week I got a Mr. Bulletfeeder in 223, 1500 RPH in 223, and this isn't a rushed pace, it feels really smooth, and you still can feel whats happening through the handle. Bullet feeders are becoming mainstream, the hornady unit looks promising, and it could be priced ~$250, everybody's rounds per hour is going up. I've seen a video on youtube, case feeder and bullet feeder on a 550, 1k per hour with manual indexing, SWEET video I'd like a dedicated new 9mm machine, it might be a 650, or maybe a LnL with case and bullet feeders :) I need to weight the option of having a 650 with a PW or adding another 1050. If I get the 650 and PW, I also might case prep 223 on the 650, and just swage on the loading phase on the 1050. I'll be able to case prep and load on the 1050 concurrently. |
|
Quoted: Bullet feeders are becoming mainstream, the hornady unit looks promising, and it could be priced ~$250, everybody's rounds per hour is going up. I've seen a video on youtube, case feeder and bullet feeder on a 550, 1k per hour with manual indexing, SWEET video Nice video, thanks for posting. I use my 550B to load both .45ACP with the standard Dillon powder measure and .308 Winchester with a Prometheus II powder measure, so unfortunately I wouldn't be able to add a case feeder and/or bullet feeder to my set-up. |
Armory Sponsor