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Posted: 7/11/2010 1:38:32 PM EDT
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I'm just starting to reload for rifle, have been loading pistol ammo for years, but this is a bit different. So i'm trimming cases on an RCBS Trim Pro with 3 way cutter. I have it set to trim to 1.750. I'm keeping what I think is consistent pressure while trimming each case, some end up at 1.749, some at 1.751. So that's issue #1. Everything (both bushings and trim head) is tight, so in thory there is no reason why I should get any shorter than 1.750... is it just that it's not the most precise tool? Maybe my calipers are just off by a thou... +/-
Issue #2 I have a lot of cases that are once fired and already shorter than 1.750, Anywhere from 1.734-1.749. Are there any issues in reloading these? I'm going to be using a Hornady Lock and Load AP and loading Sierra 69 gr BT Match Kings, and Hornady AMAX 75's for a Bolt gun, Savage Model 10 FP. Issue #3 Get rid of the trim pro and get a Giraud or Dillon case trimmer? I read somewhere, probably on this forum that you can put the Dillon trimmer in one of the available spots on the L n' L tool head and just trim as you go? Loading on a single stage press is not an option at this point in my life. I would appreciate some good feedback here guys, as I am already frustrated and have yet to seat a bullet and try a shot at the range. |
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I'm just starting to reload for rifle, have been loading pistol ammo for years, but this is a bit different. So i'm trimming cases on an RCBS Trim Pro with 3 way cutter. I have it set to trim to 1.750. I'm keeping what I think is consistent pressure while trimming each case, some end up at 1.749, some at 1.751. So that's issue #1. Everything (both bushings and trim head) is tight, so in thory there is no reason why I should get any shorter than 1.750... is it just that it's not the most precise tool? Maybe my calipers are just off by a thou... +/- Issue #2 I have a lot of cases that are once fired and already shorter than 1.750, Anywhere from 1.734-1.749. Are there any issues in reloading these? I'm going to be using a Hornady Lock and Load AP and loading Sierra 69 gr BT Match Kings, and Hornady AMAX 75's for a Bolt gun, Savage Model 10 FP. Issue #3 Get rid of the trim pro and get a Giraud or Dillon case trimmer? I read somewhere, probably on this forum that you can put the Dillon trimmer in one of the available spots on the L n' L tool head and just trim as you go? Loading on a single stage press is not an option at this point in my life. I would appreciate some good feedback here guys, as I am already frustrated and have yet to seat a bullet and try a shot at the range. Sir, I have no first hand experience with the RCBS trim pro, but I do have a lot of experience with a lot of other trimmers including Gracey, Dillon and Giraud. I did not like the Gracey trimmer because I could not get consistant case lengths, I sold it and bought a Dillon. After many years of using the Dillon I now have a Giraud. IMHO Doug Giraud makes the finest trimmer on the market. For my purposes a consistant case trim length is just another detail in the process I use in cartridge reloading to make each and every case as consistant as possible thereby making every finished cartridge as precise as I possibly can. I think a lot of the hand crank trimmers and others suffer from allowing some axial thrust of the cutter head when trimming the case and this provides an inconsistant case trim length. Only you can decide what is important and the best value for your needs. I highly recommend the Dillon trimmer, but the Giraud is better in my humble opinion. You must decide what best suits your needs. The Dilllon trim die will fit into any standard thread die holder and I supposed you can trim the resized case at just about any stage of the reloading process before charging and seating that suits you however you should keep in mind that the dillon trim die is also a resizing die and many reloaders believe the case necks should be deburred after trimming but others will tell you that deburring after trimming with a Dillon trimmer is not necessary. While I disagree with that again you must decide what best suits your needs. Also you should keep in mind that once fired cases should be measured after resizing to determine if they need to be trimmed. Most once fired cases will be a bit longer after resizing, possibly greater than 1.760" in the case of .223 Rem. When I trim .223 Rem I have my Giraud trimmer set to trim all cases to 1.758". HTH, 7zero1 |
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Some chambers will let you go a little longer than MAX case length, which is 1.760" for the .223/5.56 cases and if you go a bit longer, your longer necks will create a better gas sell and you won't see soot on those necks. You keep that gas going down the bore, instead of blowing by the necks and onto the shoulders and case body.
It's trial and error, but I'd rather go a bit longer than trim a bit too short. Chris |
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Some chambers will let you go a little longer than MAX case length, which is 1.760" for the .223/5.56 cases and if you go a bit longer, your longer necks will create a better gas sell and you won't see soot on those necks. You keep that gas going down the bore, instead of blowing by the necks and onto the shoulders and case body. It's trial and error, but I'd rather go a bit longer than trim a bit too short. Chris That's fine, but everyone that wants to do this needs to measure the chamber in their rifle to find out how long the cases can be allowed to grow, and then make sure that no one else has access to that ammunition to shoot in a different rifle. Trial and error nothin', measure the chamber. Sinclair sells a button that can be seated in a case for this purpose. A flat base bullet will not work for the task. Pressure expands the case to seal the chamber. The neck length is not a factor. |
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Getting case length consistent is operator controlled...I have no prob holding +/- 0.001" trimming 223 brass in Giraud.....
I would always hold to trim length of 1.750", and use the Giraud as the case length gauge.... Anything less the 1.740" would be pitched in my book..... The Dillon Trimmer can not be used in line with loading ammo.....prepping brass yeah...but not start to finish...buy the Giraud if you upgrade from your Trim Pro. I always load progressively with prepped and ready 223 brass. Universal decapper in Stations 1 to remove any errant debris....ie tumbling media or brass shavings.. Short of a Creosafe Chamber Cast or using the above mentioned SCLG keep to nominal numbers from reloading manuals.. |
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Thank you gentlemen. Lots of good info here. Before I spend another dime, and I have spent lots this year, I think I need to have a closer look at the Dillon and Giraud trimmers. I've seen them in operation on youtube, and I like what I saw with Giraud, yet Dillon has always had a good rep for quality products too.
Anything worth doing is worth doing right so they say. Thanks again. |
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Just curious, why would I pitch the shorter cases? As once fired brass, would they not be still serviceable and useful to reload. They came out of a bunch of AR's?? Shooting them again, they would get a bit longer,no?
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Getting case length consistent is operator controlled...I have no prob holding +/- 0.001" trimming 223 brass in Giraud..... I would always hold to trim length of 1.750", and use the Giraud as the case length gauge.... Anything less the 1.740" would be pitched in my book..... The Dillon Trimmer can not be used in line with loading ammo.....prepping brass yeah...but not start to finish...buy the Giraud if you upgrade from your Trim Pro. I always load progressively with prepped and ready 223 brass. Universal decapper in Stations 1 to remove any errant debris....ie tumbling media or brass shavings.. Short of a Creosafe Chamber Cast or using the above mentioned SCLG keep to nominal numbers from reloading manuals.. |
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1. You are not doing too bad with your trimmer. It's all about a constant consistent pressure when you hit the stop.
I also have a Giraud. A very nice tool. It also deburs the case neck inside and out when it trims. 2. Any cases that fall into the 1.748 to 1.740 range I load as blasting ammo. Anything below 1.740 goes into the scrap bucket. I do all case prep before loading on a progressive. eta, Almost forgot, welcome to Arfcom. 
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1. You are not doing too bad with your trimmer. It's all about a constant consistent pressure when you hit the stop. I also have a Giraud. A very nice tool. It also deburs the case neck inside and out when it trims. 2. Any cases that fall into the 1.748 to 1.740 range I load as blasting ammo. Anything below 1.740 goes into the scrap bucket. I do all case prep before loading on a progressive. eta, Almost forgot, welcome to Arfcom. Hi Dryflash, Thanks for the feedback and welcome, It's great being able to ask questions from people willing to help out. I'm seriousley starting to consider the Giraud, just from the few posted responses I got so far, it looks like the way to go. When you do all that case prep before going to the progressive, does that include the trimming first, then running them through the press to resize, decap, and reload, or are you doing any re-sizing before trimming? I have the Hornady New Dimension Dies (2) for sizing and seating, and a Lee Factory crimp die to go into the Ln'L press, I'm aiming for just a light taper crimp on the finished cartridge. Thanks again. |
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I don't see how so many people get varied case lengths using the RCBS or Hornady case trimmer, I have both and once setup I don't see how the trim length can vary. I mean the trimmer makes metal to metal contact once fully trimmed and the metal is thick/strong enough that there is no way that anything on the trimmer can give to cause the trim length to vary, so the "use consistent pressure" comments make no sense to me as none of my brass varies even .0005" on either trimmer much less .001-2" .
Any one have a more logical ideal than saying that you need to use consistent pressure, since as long as you use enough pressure to make full contact with the trimmer shaft stop and the trimmer there's no way the length can vary, not like they are made of cheap thin metal or plastic.  .
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1. You are not doing too bad with your trimmer. It's all about a constant consistent pressure when you hit the stop. I also have a Giraud. A very nice tool. It also deburs the case neck inside and out when it trims. 2. Any cases that fall into the 1.748 to 1.740 range I load as blasting ammo. Anything below 1.740 goes into the scrap bucket. I do all case prep before loading on a progressive. eta, Almost forgot, welcome to Arfcom. Hi Dryflash, Thanks for the feedback and welcome, It's great being able to ask questions from people willing to help out. I'm seriousley starting to consider the Giraud, just from the few posted responses I got so far, it looks like the way to go. When you do all that case prep before going to the progressive, does that include the trimming first, then running them through the press to resize, decap, and reload, or are you doing any re-sizing before trimming? I have the Hornady New Dimension Dies (2) for sizing and seating, and a Lee Factory crimp die to go into the Ln'L press, I'm aiming for just a light taper crimp on the finished cartridge. Thanks again. Sir, as previously mentioned I use a Giraud trimmer. Case trimming should be done after the cases have been resized. Most once fired cases will be a bit longer after resizing so the determination to trim is made subsequent to resizing. The case prep process that I use doesn't employ actual case measurement subsequent to resizing, I trim them all to 1.758". If the trimmer doesn't cut any metal occasionally I'll stop and measure that case just to make sure it isn't under length but since I control each and every step of the process I've never found an underlength case. An ongoing debate in this forum involves the question of crimping bullets in a bottleneck rifle cartridge. I'm from the school that does not advocate crimping. I do not recommend crimping any bullet that does not have a crimping groove, bullet deformation will be an obvious result. I believe careful control of the case neck diameter in relation to bullet diameter is a much better way to achieve proper neck tension than bullet crimping. Achieving uniform crimping requires consistant case neck thickness and trim length. Otherwise crimping in my humble opinion would contribute to inconsistancies with the completed product. HTH, 7zero1. |
| I'm going to kind of echo the poster above me. I have the same setup as the OP. I trimmed several hundred cases over the weekend. I just went and measured ten random cases and found eight of the ten to be exactly the same length of 1.751. The other two were short. I suspect the two short cases were already short and running them through the trimmer made no change to the length. The only thing I can think of is that the OP could be getting a little side to side play while trimming. I had to tighten the screws on the bottom side of my trimmer when I first got it. Also, I don't turn the trim handle by hand. I attached a battery powered drill to the cutter shaft. |
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I use the RCBS trimmer with the regular cutter, and my cases normally come out at 1.750" on the nose once I get it adjusted. If I was getting .002" of variance, I'd be perfectly fine with that. +/- .001"-.002" is fine for me, as well. We're talking the thickness of a piece of printer paper, so it's nothing to get nervous about. I use a Lyman Universal with power drill adapter bar and once dialed in, it works consistently. As I said above, on my bolt guns, I like to let them grow a bit longer. Chris |
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AFTER you buy your Giraud, come back and thank us for being so adamant about it. Perfectly trim, chamfer and debur in one 2-3 second step can't be beat. And, like another poster said, you can use it as a case neck gauge once set up ... if the case does not grind, it's not too long.
4 best pieces of reloading equipment for .223 (not in order) I ever bought: Giraud trimmer, Redding T7 turret press, RCBS 1200 Chargemaster, Redding S type bushing dies w/competition seating die. Together they equal precision and speed. |
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My brass prep process,
Pick up brass off ground, Tumble in walnut with brass polish to clean, Inspect and sort cases, Lube with FA or Dillon spray lube, size with a Hornady FL die in a Rockchucker. Gauge all cases, Tumble in plain corn cob to remove lube and polish cases, Remove crimp as needed, Uniform primer pockets, Trim using Giraud trimmer. Case prep done. As I handle the brass, it gets re inspected at each step. Load on 550 with Dillon dies. First station has a Lee Universal decapper. 
Trimming with the Giraud. |
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I don't see how so many people get varied case lengths using the RCBS or Hornady case trimmer, I have both and once setup I don't see how the trim length can vary. I mean the trimmer makes metal to metal contact once fully trimmed and the metal is thick/strong enough that there is no way that anything on the trimmer can give to cause the trim length to vary, so the "use consistent pressure" comments make no sense to me as none of my brass varies even .0005" on either trimmer much less .001-2" . Any one have a more logical ideal than saying that you need to use consistent pressure, since as long as you use enough pressure to make full contact with the trimmer shaft stop and the trimmer there's no way the length can vary, not like they are made of cheap thin metal or plastic. .See that's what prompted my original post. When the bushing contacts the body of the RCBS trimmer, it's metal to metal, I can't push it any further, so 1.750 should be the trimmed size of ALL cases. I think it's a concentricity issue with the shell holder, because looking at some of the case necks, the chamfer is not uniform around the entire case mouth. I'll keep using it for now, it just means more sorting and messing around with brass. Giraud has a 4 week delivery time from time of order, so I think I'll get an order in for one soon. Thanks for all the responses. |
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I don't see how so many people get varied case lengths using the RCBS or Hornady case trimmer, I have both and once setup I don't see how the trim length can vary. I mean the trimmer makes metal to metal contact once fully trimmed and the metal is thick/strong enough that there is no way that anything on the trimmer can give to cause the trim length to vary, so the "use consistent pressure" comments make no sense to me as none of my brass varies even .0005" on either trimmer much less .001-2" . Any one have a more logical ideal than saying that you need to use consistent pressure, since as long as you use enough pressure to make full contact with the trimmer shaft stop and the trimmer there's no way the length can vary, not like they are made of cheap thin metal or plastic. .See that's what prompted my original post. When the bushing contacts the body of the RCBS trimmer, it's metal to metal, I can't push it any further, so 1.750 should be the trimmed size of ALL cases. I think it's a concentricity issue with the shell holder, because looking at some of the case necks, the chamfer is not uniform around the entire case mouth. I'll keep using it for now, it just means more sorting and messing around with brass. Giraud has a 4 week delivery time from time of order, so I think I'll get an order in for one soon. Thanks for all the responses. Sir, concentricity was always an issue with my trimmed cases before I bought a Dillon trimmer. Once I understood the difference of not having to do neck deburring by hand is when I realized the Giraud does not sacrifice concentricity while enhancing my productivity. One thing to consider since you are in Ontario. Doug Giraud normally sets up shop on commercial row during the National High Power Rifle Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio. My bet is that he'll be there at the end of this month. If you want to see and experiment with his product I suggest you consider the drive to Camp Perry and pay him a visit, I'm certain he will have some number of his trimmers on hand for sale. Call him to be sure when he'll be there. 7zero1 out. |
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