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Posted: 5/25/2010 1:40:30 AM EDT
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I am leaning towards a traditional balance beam. What suggestions have you gents?
I was going to get this one: RCBS for $62 |
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Formerly made by Pacific. They work very well. Electronic scales are great for sorting things, not so great for spot measurements like charge weight. If the electronic has been on for many hours and has achieved thermal stability the wander is pretty much gone, but you need to check the darn thing to make sure. |
| Balance beams are nice and every reloader should have a good one. .. . To periodically verify your digital scale. I find balance beams to be slow and cumbersome when setting new loads for powder drop and spot checking loads in run lots. They're great for weight comparisons. ie.. bullet and brass weights. |
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I am leaning towards a traditional balance beam. What suggestions have you gents? I was going to get this one: RCBS for $62 That is the one I use to develop all those famous CCW recipes. I have an expensive RCBS 1500 scale, but prefer the one you show when it is time to get accurate. |
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That is the one I have, without the trickler and funnel. I looked around for a link to post, couldn't find it.............went to bed.  I'd bought the thing at a local funstore.
But that's it, sure as shit, and it's worked great for me for years now.  Thanks for postin' that Sheldon.
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Can someone who knows explain the difference between the 502 and the 505? I certainly can't figure it out from Midway's site. The 505 is a little heavier is all I could tell when handling them in the store, plus I think the 505 has some extra conversion #'s on the sticker. |
| I have used beam scales for several years. My dad got into reloading and after getting him set up he bought me the RCBS 750. I cannot believe that I have been using the beam scale for so long. This thing is great. It requires no warm up and you rarely need to cal it. A very great scale. |
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Formerly made by Pacific. They work very well. Electronic scales are great for sorting things, not so great for spot measurements like charge weight. If the electronic has been on for many hours and has achieved thermal stability the wander is pretty much gone, but you need to check the darn thing to make sure. What do you mean by thermal stability? And how does having it on achieve any thermal stability? |
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Formerly made by Pacific. They work very well. Electronic scales are great for sorting things, not so great for spot measurements like charge weight. If the electronic has been on for many hours and has achieved thermal stability the wander is pretty much gone, but you need to check the darn thing to make sure. What do you mean by thermal stability? And how does having it on achieve any thermal stability? A "cold" scale will give varying reading as it warms up. I try to leave mine on or at least turn it on an hour before I decide to start reloading. Turn off your ceiling fan also. I disagree about not using them for spot measurements. That's where they shine. |
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Formerly made by Pacific. They work very well. Electronic scales are great for sorting things, not so great for spot measurements like charge weight. If the electronic has been on for many hours and has achieved thermal stability the wander is pretty much gone, but you need to check the darn thing to make sure. What do you mean by thermal stability? And how does having it on achieve any thermal stability? A "cold" scale will give varying reading as it warms up. I try to leave mine on or at least turn it on an hour before I decide to start reloading. Turn off your ceiling fan also. I disagree about not using them for spot measurements. That's where they shine. +1 I just leave my digital scale on all the time at the recommendation of many people here. You cannot tell me that someone with a balance beam can sort 100 cases by weight faster than someone with a quality digital scale. Calibrating a digital scale is not a chore so I am not sure why it is always brought up as a negative aspect of digitals. If you calibrate everytime you load as part of your process, then it is just part of your prep before throwing charges. It takes a whole minute. Sometimes I spend that long trying to figure out what I went to my loading area to do anyway. 
I am spoiled as I have the RCBS Chargemaster which is the same scale as the RCBS 1500 standalone scale but with an automatic dispenser. You can always buy the dispenser at a later date but it is cheaper overall to buy it at once. If you are on a budget and think you may want a dispenser, the RCBS 1500 would be my choice. |
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Formerly made by Pacific. They work very well. Electronic scales are great for sorting things, not so great for spot measurements like charge weight. If the electronic has been on for many hours and has achieved thermal stability the wander is pretty much gone, but you need to check the darn thing to make sure. What do you mean by thermal stability? And how does having it on achieve any thermal stability? A "cold" scale will give varying reading as it warms up. I try to leave mine on or at least turn it on an hour before I decide to start reloading. Turn off your ceiling fan also. I disagree about not using them for spot measurements. That's where they shine. +1 I just leave my digital scale on all the time at the recommendation of many people here. You cannot tell me that someone with a balance beam can sort 100 cases by weight faster than someone with a quality digital scale. Calibrating a digital scale is not a chore so I am not sure why it is always brought up as a negative aspect of digitals. If you calibrate everytime you load as part of your process, then it is just part of your prep before throwing charges. It takes a whole minute. Sometimes I spend that long trying to figure out what I went to my loading area to do anyway.
I am spoiled as I have the RCBS Chargemaster which is the same scale as the RCBS 1500 standalone scale but with an automatic dispenser. You can always buy the dispenser at a later date but it is cheaper overall to buy it at once. If you are on a budget and think you may want a dispenser, the RCBS 1500 would be my choice. I have the same combo. I'm not sure I buy the whole keeping the scale plugged in keeps it warmed up theory. Isn't the digital scale a solid state device? Keeping my computer on doesn't make it compute more accurately. Please someone explain the science behind keeping the scale plugged in. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Formerly made by Pacific. They work very well. Electronic scales are great for sorting things, not so great for spot measurements like charge weight. If the electronic has been on for many hours and has achieved thermal stability the wander is pretty much gone, but you need to check the darn thing to make sure. What do you mean by thermal stability? And how does having it on achieve any thermal stability? A "cold" scale will give varying reading as it warms up. I try to leave mine on or at least turn it on an hour before I decide to start reloading. Turn off your ceiling fan also. I disagree about not using them for spot measurements. That's where they shine. +1 I just leave my digital scale on all the time at the recommendation of many people here. You cannot tell me that someone with a balance beam can sort 100 cases by weight faster than someone with a quality digital scale. Calibrating a digital scale is not a chore so I am not sure why it is always brought up as a negative aspect of digitals. If you calibrate everytime you load as part of your process, then it is just part of your prep before throwing charges. It takes a whole minute. Sometimes I spend that long trying to figure out what I went to my loading area to do anyway. I am spoiled as I have the RCBS Chargemaster which is the same scale as the RCBS 1500 standalone scale but with an automatic dispenser. You can always buy the dispenser at a later date but it is cheaper overall to buy it at once. If you are on a budget and think you may want a dispenser, the RCBS 1500 would be my choice. I have read often that electronic scales float due to temperature, fluorescent lighting, day of the week, etc. I calibrate my Chargemaster 1500 with the 50g weights every time I start it up. Since I keep reading that it's going to drift, I check it with calibrated weights close to the charge I'm using every 10 or 15 loads. Charge weights are easy: for my pistol loads, I cut down a straw until it weighed in at 2.6 grains, then marked with with a sharpie. As I'm loading, I toss the straw in the pan every so often. I do the same with my 24.5 grain TAC load for .223, except in this case it's with some tape and a couple of .22LR casings. I have yet to see the scale off even by 1/10th of a grain. I get correct measurements no matter how much or little time the scale has been on. And it's in the garage, where temps vary much more than elsewhere in the house. And under (gasp!) fluorescent lighting... I guess I got the magical good one...  |
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Quoted: Quoted: I have the same combo. I'm not sure I buy the whole keeping the scale plugged in keeps it warmed up theory. Isn't the digital scale a solid state device? Keeping my computer on doesn't make it compute more accurately. Please someone explain the science behind keeping the scale plugged in. While I don't see a difference between leaving it on or turning it on/off, I will say that the scale is vastly different from your computer. Your computer is by and large a digital device. That means that it doesn't matter if the voltage into your CPU varies by 5% while it is running, as long as it's above a given setpoint, the computer operates. Nearly everything in your computer (except the very few analog outputs, like audio), is based on switches being 'on' or 'off'. There is no in-between. For a 3.3V signal, if the voltage is above 3.0V, it's 'on', if it's below 0.8V, the signal is 'off'. It's very tolerant of variation. By contrast, the scale is based on an analog pressure sensitive device with circuitry which translates that pressure into a very accurate voltage or current level (not sure which they're using, probably voltage). I don't know their part specs, but I'd bet if that voltage is off even by a small fraction of a volt, you get an inaccurate reading. All electronics heat up as they run until they reach an equilibrium steady-state (assuming they are performing the same task over and over constantly, as the scale does). As solid state transistors heat up, they consume more current, which, if not compensated for in an analog device, will also affect the voltage. So it's not unusual that an analog device this sensitive requires some amount of warm-up time before it's output is consistent. That said, while the principle is sound, I have not noted this on my own Chargemaster 1500. |
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Quoted: I leave it on because really I was turning it off just for the sake of turning it off. I have never experienced the floating measurements but why not just leave it on if it is plugged in? You will get differing opinions on this within the electrical engineering community. Basically it has to do with the time-to-failure of an electronic device. If you use the device rather infrequently, then you are probably better off (in my opinion) leaving it turned off. Leaving the device on all the time causes the circuits to be exercised constantly and will reduce the life of the solid state parts. All electronics companies work hard to determine the mean time to failure on their devices. Most solid state electronics are somewhere in the 5-10 year neighborhood (and this usually assumes constant use, but not always). Leaving it off will preserve the life of the device (assuming it's well kept and not corroding or getting wet or something). The other school of thought is that the inrush current every time you power on the part is more damaging to the device over the long-run than simply leaving it on. So if you use it frequently, it may make sense to leave it on. My digital piano has been on more or less constantly for 4 years without a hitch (crossing my fingers). I like to be able to walk up at any time and play it. My scale is off except when I'm using it, because I may only turn it on a couple of times a week, whereas the piano would be turned on every day when I or one of my kids sat down to practice. Personally, I don't think either school of thought has a monopoly on the truth. It really depends on what the device was designed for and what specifications it was designed to. Only empirical testing will give the final answer, and from Q&R folks I work with in the computing industry, empirical testing has had mixed results at best on this topic. |
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I have the same combo. I'm not sure I buy the whole keeping the scale plugged in keeps it warmed up theory. Isn't the digital scale a solid state device? Keeping my computer on doesn't make it compute more accurately. Please someone explain the science behind keeping the scale plugged in. While I don't see a difference between leaving it on or turning it on/off, I will say that the scale is vastly different from your computer. Your computer is by and large a digital device. That means that it doesn't matter if the voltage into your CPU varies by 5% while it is running, as long as it's above a given setpoint, the computer operates. Nearly everything in your computer (except the very few analog outputs, like audio), is based on switches being 'on' or 'off'. There is no in-between. For a 3.3V signal, if the voltage is above 3.0V, it's 'on', if it's below 0.8V, the signal is 'off'. It's very tolerant of variation. By contrast, the scale is based on an analog pressure sensitive device with circuitry which translates that pressure into a very accurate voltage or current level (not sure which they're using, probably voltage). I don't know their part specs, but I'd bet if that voltage is off even by a small fraction of a volt, you get an inaccurate reading. All electronics heat up as they run until they reach an equilibrium steady-state (assuming they are performing the same task over and over constantly, as the scale does). As solid state transistors heat up, they consume more current, which, if not compensated for in an analog device, will also affect the voltage. So it's not unusual that an analog device this sensitive requires some amount of warm-up time before it's output is consistent. That said, while the principle is sound, I have not noted this on my own Chargemaster 1500. Bad example on my part of the CPU I guess. I believe most weighing devices use some sort of strain gauge or piezo-electric device to vary resistance across a circuit which translates to a voltage. I'm assuming this is the case for a digital powder scale. That being said, unless your environmental variables like temperature, humidity, pressure etc. change considerably you're probably not going to get great variances in your readings. A simple re-calibration should make the readings true again. I'm just wondering if anyone has experienced more consistent readings on their electronic scale relative to a beam scale when it's been left on for a long time. Empirical evidence as you say. 
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Digital technoloigy has gottn both better and cheaper.
I have two digital scales, One is "old" tech - about 5 years old and origiinally cost about $150. It does slowly creep on the readings until it warms up - but that creep is very obvious and will show as 0.1 gr on the scale rather than 0. Hitting the "zero" button to reset it just before you weigh something resolves the problem. Once it warms up it is rock solid. Since it has a power cord in addition to a 9V battery, I just leave it plugged in to eliminate the warm up issue. My other electronic scale is much more portable, cost about $40 a month ago and has so far shown no tendency to drift or require a warm up period. Both scales are also very easy to calibrate and I do that at the start of each reloading session whether they need it or not. Boih are a vast improvement over the magetically dampend RCBS beam balance scale I had before I went digital and it in turn was better than the oil dampened Redding scale that I had before that (1970's). A digital scale will stabilize in a second or two while a beam balance will take considerably longer. |
| I would go with the RCBS 505 largely due to the three poise vs. two poise system for measuring. In other words the 505 has one adjustment for 10 grs., one for 1 gr. and one for .1 gr.. Use the zoom feature on each and you can see the difference. The price difference is like $3 or $4. |
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I would go with the RCBS 505 largely due to the three poise vs. two poise system for measuring. In other words the 505 has one adjustment for 10 grs., one for 1 gr. and one for .1 gr.. Use the zoom feature on each and you can see the difference. The price difference is like $3 or $4. Someone loaned me this one and it will have to do for now. I am slowly ramping up. |
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When discussing scales, it is always useful to give real life examples of what it can do. I myself am new to reloading but not to scales as I used them for thirty odd years as a research scientist. The ones available to us in reloading are of course not of the same caliber (and price tag) as those we used in the lab, but I find their quality pretty reasonable for their cost and what they are used for.
When I was looking for a digital scale, I looked at the ones put out by the major reloading manufacturers but ended up buying this one “My Weight GemPro 250” from “Old Will Knott Scales": http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/search.aspx?find=gempro+250 The price $164.90 was reasonable and the seller is reliable from my own experience. This scale is made for jewelers but is also good for reloaders since it also weights in grains. To get an idea of what it can do, here is a snapshot of some of the weighing I was doing today. What you see here is part of a spreadsheet I was filling in as I reloaded. I was reloading 223 WCC brass with Varget and what you can see are the weights I recorded as I prepared ten rounds with each powder weight i.e. 22 grains (with and without crimp), 22.5 grains, and 23 grains. The way I do this is to first weigh the brass with the primer installed (“Brass”). I then weight the powder (“Powder”), put the powder in the brass, and reweight the brass with the powder (“Together”). If everything is correct, subtracting “brass” from “together” should give you a “Powder check” number that is close if not the same as “Powder”. 
The scale will read to 0.01 grain. As you can see, the “Powder check” number is indeed very close to the “powder” number. I do this to double check both the scale and my work process, but of course it is also a very good way to illustrate the reproducibility of the scale. I think the numbers speak for themselves. |
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Quoted: When discussing scales, it is always useful to give real life examples of what it can do. I myself am new to reloading but not to scales as I used them for thirty odd years as a research scientist. The ones available to us in reloading are of course not of the same caliber (and price tag) as those we used in the lab, but I find their quality pretty reasonable for their cost and what they are used for. When I was looking for a digital scale, I looked at the ones put out by the major reloading manufacturers but ended up buying this one “My Weight GemPro 250” from “Old Will Knott Scales": http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/search.aspx?find=gempro+250 The price $164.90 was reasonable and the seller is reliable from my own experience. This scale is made for jewelers but is also good for reloaders since it also weights in grains. To get an idea of what it can do, here is a snapshot of some of the weighing I was doing today. What you see here is part of a spreadsheet I was filling in as I reloaded. I was reloading 223 WCC brass with Varget and what you can see are the weights I recorded as I prepared ten rounds with each powder weight i.e. 22 grains (with and without crimp), 22.5 grains, and 23 grains. The way I do this is to first weigh the brass with the primer installed (“Brass”). I then weight the powder (“Powder”), put the powder in the brass, and reweight the brass with the powder (“Together”). If everything is correct, subtracting “brass” from “together” should give you a “Powder check” number that is close if not the same as “Powder”. http://www.ijn.dreamhost.com/Photo/Scale.jpg The scale will read to 0.01 grain. As you can see, the “Powder check” number is indeed very close to the “powder” number. I do this to double check both the scale and my work process, but of course it is also a very good way to illustrate the reproducibility of the scale. I think the numbers speak for themselves. Based on those numbers, I won't disagree, looks like a great scale. That said, while it may 'read' to 0.01 grain, based on your numbers, it's only accurate to about +/- 0.04 grains... |
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That is correct, that is the reason why I was careful to say “will read to 0.01 grain” instead of accurate to 0.01 grain.
You will also notice that I don’t actually try to hit the exact grain when I weigh, I go for plus and minus 0.02 grain and also “let it go” when the difference in “Powder check” comes out to between 0 .00 to 0.04 grain. As it was, there were very few (3-4 out of 140 rounds) that I had to redo because the numbers were off more than that. I also cannot stress enough (as others have done) that you need to let the balance “warm up” for at least 30 min before you use it, and also to let the balance “settle” after you put in what you think is your last grain. I do this last part by looking away from the balance and entering the digits (i.e. 140 from the numbers 140.34) without the decimals in to the computer, then look back at the scale to get the decimal figures (i.e. 34) for the computer entry. If you do this, you will not likely find the scale change again, and even if it did, the numbers are never more than 0.02 grain. |
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Can someone who knows explain the difference between the 502 and the 505? I certainly can't figure it out from Midway's site. I believe it has to do with the maximum weight the scale can measure. I believe the 502 maxes out at 300 grs, the 505 at 515 grains. 
I have my 505 mounted level and secure at eye level. I do have a small digital (2 actually) scale for weighing bullets and cases. The digital shines for these tasks. My 505 is not going anywhere. |
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