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Posted: 4/8/2009 12:28:49 PM EDT
| So I have shot a good amount of Lake City brass as of late, and while processing the brass i noticed the primer slot has a small ring inside of it, is this what is referred to as crimped? and is swaging the fix? |
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Look at the FAQs............there is a pic of an LC crimp.
Then, know that there are other ways that mfns have used to crimp their primer pockets. So, it won't always look exactly like an LC crimp. There are two standard methods to deal with a crimp. Swage or Reamer. The tools range in price from about $10 (hand reamer) to about $95 (Dillon swage). Read more about it in your re-loading books or manual. Or, read the technical section above. Aloha, Mark |
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thanks, i admit i didnt look hard, however to be honest i could not see the difference between the before and after swaged shots, but after a but i see that the little ring was made thinner, i think it was the bright gold on the inside of the primer pocket that was throwing me off.
One more question tho, is PMC crimped too? I didnt think PMC was mil one shot brass. 
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Your better of swaging it versus trying to cut it out with either the RCBS or Lee tools. Although I've never tried the RCBS or Lee tools, I disagree on swaging being better. I ditched my Stupid Swager in favor of the hornady cutting tool and have much better and consistent primer pockets. |
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I just use a chamfering tool. Is that not a good idea? I don't feel it is. . . reason being, primers are a press fit (rely on friction for retention). If you use a chamfer tool, you are actually creating a tapered pocket, ie. side walls of pocket not straight, therefore not much surface area in contact with the case. But that's just my rambling thoughts. |
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I just use a chamfering tool. Is that not a good idea? I don't feel it is. . . reason being, primers are a press fit (rely on friction for retention). If you use a chamfer tool, you are actually creating a tapered pocket, ie. side walls of pocket not straight, therefore not much surface area in contact with the case. But that's just my rambling thoughts. In that case, you're cutting way too deep. All that is needed is the tiniest of chamfers at the edge of the entry to the pocket. There's not much material displaced and very little should be removed. The problem with a deburring tool is consistency from one case to the next, but anyone that is careful with reasonable dexterity can learn the skill quickly and produce cases that are so close to identical as to not matter. |
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Your better of swaging it versus trying to cut it out with either the RCBS or Lee tools. A Dilllon super swager is a godsend in these situations. I also disagree. Choose the method that suits YOU. And, how YOU like to do things. I doubt that someone has done a comprehensive test to say absolutely which method is BETTER. They both have their selling points. And, faults. Aloha, Mark |
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I just use a chamfering tool. Is that not a good idea? I don't feel it is. . . reason being, primers are a press fit (rely on friction for retention). If you use a chamfer tool, you are actually creating a tapered pocket, ie. side walls of pocket not straight, therefore not much surface area in contact with the case. But that's just my rambling thoughts. In that case, you're cutting way too deep. All that is needed is the tiniest of chamfers at the edge of the entry to the pocket. There's not much material displaced and very little should be removed. The problem with a deburring tool is consistency from one case to the next, but anyone that is careful with reasonable dexterity can learn the skill quickly and produce cases that are so close to identical as to not matter. I tried 10 cases with the chamfer/deburr tool & compared them to the swaged cases. othe than the style of the crimp removal... everything else was the same. When I shot them... the groups were IDENTICAL... about 7/8" 10 shots @ 100 yrds. I swage new brass because it is quicker. Maybe the cases won't last as long??? NO CLUE... didn't test that. BUT... as far as accuracy... I saw no difference. |
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I just use a chamfering tool. Is that not a good idea? IMHO…..DON'T USE THIS STYLE OF TOOL.......... www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=364181&t=11082005 Someone once asked: Why Not? A standard reamer/de-burr tool could be used but, your results will vary greatly. In my younger days I tried using it but, I encountered problems with getting squared cuts and sometimes over doing it. And, it does nothing for the actual diameter of the pocket (IF, there is a problem there). YMWV. Currently, I use these tools...... Large Primer Pocket Size #7777785 www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=682934 Small Primer Pocket Size #7777784 www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=643126 With, the Lyman Hand tool I've eliminated those problems. It has a safe edge on the bottom.....it won't cut the pocket deeper. The cutter will simply spin, via hand power, cutting off the crimp. It'll leave a slight chamfer to the primer pocket opening. It will correct an undersized pocket and an "out of round" condition, but only to the limits of the tool's cutting edge, under hand power. The main pocket diameter (under most circumstances) won't be enlarged excessively, unless you force the tool to the sidewalls. And, the cutting edge can be dulled, IF you wanted to do that. It's a "hand tool" and I wouldn't mount it in a drill........but, that's ME. BTW, my Speer #10 Re-loading manual has a picture of a pocket knife being used to cut a military crimp out (page 71). And, for commercial cases, IF needed, the Lyman hand tool will also slightly "chamfer" the primer pocket opening that has that "sharp edge." And, while it's in there.....IF, the primer pocket is too small, it'll do it's magic for that problem, too. Then again, sometimes just changing your brand of primer can work. Perhaps, using the wrong tool and/or other misusage of a hand de-crimp reamer, may be the reason why, some people are so anti-reamer? You know the saying about using the right tool for the job? Well, IMHO......the right tool, is the one specially made for the job of addressing the crimp. In this case, I use a Lyman Hand military de-crimp reamer tool. Not to mention that, the learning curve is so short. Just insert the tool into the primer pocket, twist, remove the tool and it’s done. It’s the sort of a mindless operation, that I can do while watching T.V. IF, you choose the swage method (Dillon $94.95).........so be it. YMWV. Aloha, Mark |
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What do you guys think of this?
rcbs Middle of the road? And will it work with a Hornady LNL single stage? People are saying that you need an O type press, what is that? |
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An O type press is one like the Rockchucker, Hornady, or Redding single stage press. A C type press is one like the LEE Reloader model press, where the front of the press is open. These are far less stiff than an O press.
There's a tutorial in the Resources about how to use this swage die, but you'll have to dig out the URL for the link. |
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What do you guys think of this? rcbs Middle of the road? And will it work with a Hornady LNL single stage? People are saying that you need an O type press, what is that? It's what I use. I like it more than reaming pockets out. |
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What do you guys think of this? rcbs Middle of the road? And will it work with a Hornady LNL single stage? People are saying that you need an O type press, what is that? I had that (RCBS swage) and used it with my RCBS Jr and Rock Chucker presses. IMHO...........it was a PIA to use. Setting the cup, putting the case just right so that the spud would enter the primer pocket, getting your fingers out of the way, having to slam the handle to get the case off the spud....... YMWV. Aloha, Mark |
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What do you guys think of this? rcbs Middle of the road? And will it work with a Hornady LNL single stage? People are saying that you need an O type press, what is that? I had that (RCBS swage) and used it with my RCBS Jr and Rock Chucker presses. IMHO...........it was a PIA to use. Setting the cup, putting the case just right so that the spud would enter the primer pocket, getting your fingers out of the way, having to slam the handle to get the case off the spud....... YMWV. Aloha, Mark I start the case mouth onto the guide rod and then pull the handle. I don't use that cup that came with it though. I just put the swaging bit in the shellholder and go. Getting the swaged case off of the swaging nub can be a PITA if you have arthritic hands. I just give it a wiggle and it comes right off. |
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I just use a chamfering tool. Is that not a good idea? IMHO…..DON'T USE THIS STYLE OF TOOL.......... www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=364181&t=11082005 Someone once asked: Why Not? A standard reamer/de-burr tool could be used but, your results will vary greatly. In my younger days I tried using it but, I encountered problems with getting squared cuts and sometimes over doing it. And, it does nothing for the actual diameter of the pocket (IF, there is a problem there). YMWV. Currently, I use these tools...... Large Primer Pocket Size #7777785 www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=682934 Small Primer Pocket Size #7777784 www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=643126 With, the Lyman Hand tool I've eliminated those problems. It has a safe edge on the bottom.....it won't cut the pocket deeper. The cutter will simply spin, via hand power, cutting off the crimp. It'll leave a slight chamfer to the primer pocket opening. It will correct an undersized pocket and an "out of round" condition, but only to the limits of the tool's cutting edge, under hand power. The main pocket diameter (under most circumstances) won't be enlarged excessively, unless you force the tool to the sidewalls. And, the cutting edge can be dulled, IF you wanted to do that. It's a "hand tool" and I wouldn't mount it in a drill........but, that's ME. BTW, my Speer #10 Re-loading manual has a picture of a pocket knife being used to cut a military crimp out (page 71). And, for commercial cases, IF needed, the Lyman hand tool will also slightly "chamfer" the primer pocket opening that has that "sharp edge." And, while it's in there.....IF, the primer pocket is too small, it'll do it's magic for that problem, too. Then again, sometimes just changing your brand of primer can work. Perhaps, using the wrong tool and/or other misusage of a hand de-crimp reamer, may be the reason why, some people are so anti-reamer? You know the saying about using the right tool for the job? Well, IMHO......the right tool, is the one specially made for the job of addressing the crimp. In this case, I use a Lyman Hand military de-crimp reamer tool. Not to mention that, the learning curve is so short. Just insert the tool into the primer pocket, twist, remove the tool and it’s done. It’s the sort of a mindless operation, that I can do while watching T.V. IF, you choose the swage method (Dillon $94.95).........so be it. YMWV. Aloha, Mark So, Mark I wanted to get the Dillon, but saw one of those $10 layman tools you said to use and figured id give it a go. Wow what a pain in the butt, I could only do about 10 cases per sitting before my hand cramped up. Anyway I finally got through all that brass with it and i'm running into another problem. After scoring on a few cases of CCI 400 at the local gun shop (pats self on back) I decided to give it a go with my Hornady hand primer. So I started with the de-crimped PMC brass 1 in 3 went right in, but the rest would not go without a fight, and i ended up ruining a few in the process, they just would not line up well. I used my camphor and deburr tool to bevel the edge abit and this seemed to help but not totally fix the issue. For reference i did prime 100 rem brass that was never crimped in the first place, and they went in like warm butter on a hot summer day, just perfectly. So im wondering if there is anything else you do? Im sure im using the right tools with the right setup. Anyways as a side note, I could not help thinking if I was trying to prime this brass on a progressive, It would just flat out not work. |
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Both methods have issues. Cutting out the crimp with a reamer or <shudder> a chamfering tool risks removing too much metal unless you're VERY careful, and the chamfering tool is especially hard to use consistently. The Hornady reamer looks like it's as close to "over-cut proof" as you can get, but I'd still be very cautious with it.
The various swage tools require more physical labor to set up the case, and often give you some significant resistance during the swaging process. Most instructions don't fully explain how LUBE is very helpful in these situations, especially with the RCBS tool. The Dillon SuperSwage is about as fool-proof as they come BUT you have to segregate the cases by web thickness/brand/headstamp, and a lot of people don't like that level of pre-preparation. You also have to be a little careful about setting the SuperSwage anvil or you don't get consistent swaging. Of the two processes, I prefer swaging because I cannot see how you could overdo it. But while you might get more radius than you want by swaging more (a lá Remington cases), with a reamer you can take off too much metal or too much on one side and generate one-each "ruined case" really easily. Being slightly paranoid, I choose the method that's least likely for me to goober up. 
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Its when you are looking at 5000 LC cases with a hand reamer and after 100 cases you start to wonder if you are ever going to get it done from both a time and pain in the hand standpoint that the $100 spent on a Dillon starts to look quite reasonable: "a long-term investment that will amortize over the years " you tell yourself (same for a Giraud trimmer) 
I had already tried the RCBS swage and had issues doing it years ago so I settled on the hand reamer as a decent alternative for the much smaller amounts of brass I was removing the crimp from in past years. And I also remember when places had "Grade 1" .223 brass available that was already cleaned and had the crimp removed. 
One benefit to swaging is that it is supposed to work-harden the brass in that area which is a good thing, although I'm not sure if you could tell that much difference in the long run of multiple reloads. |
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OK, I have to weigh in on this. I have used the chamfer/ deburr tool that came with my RCBS press kit to remove the crimp from thousands of military brass. I chuck it in my 1/2" drill, lock it on high and give the case a slight bump into the cutter. Sometimes I don't get all of it on the first try so I give a light second bump. I have never ruined a primer pocket using it. Also I flip the case around and chamfer the case mouth since I already have it in my hand. The case is now essentially ready to load.
I have always heard about how well a swaging machine works and I tried out a friends one day to see how I would like it. I hated it, and he asked how I got rid of primer crimps if I didn't use a swager. I picked up his chamfer/deburr tool and explained how it had the perfect angle for primer pockets and how quickly you can process brass if you chuck it in a power drill. The next time I went over, I noticed the super swage was off the bench and under the bench was a Dewalt drill with the chamfer/deburr tool still chucked in it. I didn't even ask, I knew he had seen the light. As for the concerns about ruining the primer pocket, and getting it off center those fears appear unfounded to me. Careful attention of the first few you do will let you develop a feel as to how much pressure and for how long to apply it to get good consistent results. I loaded some 9mm in WCC '02 cases to take over to run through a neighbor's sten gun and he argued with me over whether or not I had swaged the primer pockets as they were all as smooth and consistent as you would get with swaging. Also if you have ever encountered Ultramax ammunition you will notice that they ream all of the primer pockets even the commercial brass in military calibers I guess so that none slip through with a crimp. Please note you don't have to ream nearly as deep as Ultramax does to get good results. When reloading Ultramax brass the primers look like little mushrooms where they have expanded into the over reamed primer pockets, so it appears to me that even with overdoing it there is still a good margin of safety built into the primer. Again DO NOT REAM AS DEEP AS ULTRAMAX. This just shows that if you do get a little carried away the case won't vaporize. In closing I believe that reaming is cheaper, easier, faster, and can be just as consistent and accurate as swaging. As a bonus as stated above you can chamfer the case mouth at the same time. |
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OK, I have to weigh in on this. I have used the chamfer/ deburr tool that came with my RCBS press kit to remove the crimp from thousands of military brass. I chuck it in my 1/2" drill, lock it on high and give the case a slight bump into the cutter. Sometimes I don't get all of it on the first try so I give a light second bump. I have never ruined a primer pocket using it. Also I flip the case around and chamfer the case mouth since I already have it in my hand. The case is now essentially ready to load. I have always heard about how well a swaging machine works and I tried out a friends one day to see how I would like it. I hated it, and he asked how I got rid of primer crimps if I didn't use a swager. I picked up his chamfer/deburr tool and explained how it had the perfect angle for primer pockets and how quickly you can process brass if you chuck it in a power drill. The next time I went over, I noticed the super swage was off the bench and under the bench was a Dewalt drill with the chamfer/deburr tool still chucked in it. I didn't even ask, I knew he had seen the light. As for the concerns about ruining the primer pocket, and getting it off center those fears appear unfounded to me. Careful attention of the first few you do will let you develop a feel as to how much pressure and for how long to apply it to get good consistent results. I loaded some 9mm in WCC '02 cases to take over to run through a neighbor's sten gun and he argued with me over whether or not I had swaged the primer pockets as they were all as smooth and consistent as you would get with swaging. Also if you have ever encountered Ultramax ammunition you will notice that they ream all of the primer pockets even the commercial brass in military calibers I guess so that none slip through with a crimp. Please note you don't have to ream nearly as deep as Ultramax does to get good results. When reloading Ultramax brass the primers look like little mushrooms where they have expanded into the over reamed primer pockets, so it appears to me that even with overdoing it there is still a good margin of safety built into the primer. Again DO NOT REAM AS DEEP AS ULTRAMAX. This just shows that if you do get a little carried away the case won't vaporize. In closing I believe that reaming is cheaper, easier, faster, and can be just as consistent and accurate as swaging. As a bonus as stated above you can chamfer the case mouth at the same time. i agree, only i use my drill press with a cone shaped burr running slow , never runied a case. thier the RCBS pocket swager, just to slow. the cone shape burr makes for easy primer seating. 
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OK, I have to weigh in on this. I have used the chamfer/ deburr tool that came with my RCBS press kit to remove the crimp from thousands of military brass. I chuck it in my 1/2" drill, lock it on high and give the case a slight bump into the cutter. Sometimes I don't get all of it on the first try so I give a light second bump. I have never ruined a primer pocket using it. Also I flip the case around and chamfer the case mouth since I already have it in my hand. The case is now essentially ready to load. I have always heard about how well a swaging machine works and I tried out a friends one day to see how I would like it. I hated it, and he asked how I got rid of primer crimps if I didn't use a swager. I picked up his chamfer/deburr tool and explained how it had the perfect angle for primer pockets and how quickly you can process brass if you chuck it in a power drill. The next time I went over, I noticed the super swage was off the bench and under the bench was a Dewalt drill with the chamfer/deburr tool still chucked in it. I didn't even ask, I knew he had seen the light. As for the concerns about ruining the primer pocket, and getting it off center those fears appear unfounded to me. Careful attention of the first few you do will let you develop a feel as to how much pressure and for how long to apply it to get good consistent results. I loaded some 9mm in WCC '02 cases to take over to run through a neighbor's sten gun and he argued with me over whether or not I had swaged the primer pockets as they were all as smooth and consistent as you would get with swaging. Also if you have ever encountered Ultramax ammunition you will notice that they ream all of the primer pockets even the commercial brass in military calibers I guess so that none slip through with a crimp. Please note you don't have to ream nearly as deep as Ultramax does to get good results. When reloading Ultramax brass the primers look like little mushrooms where they have expanded into the over reamed primer pockets, so it appears to me that even with overdoing it there is still a good margin of safety built into the primer. Again DO NOT REAM AS DEEP AS ULTRAMAX. This just shows that if you do get a little carried away the case won't vaporize. In closing I believe that reaming is cheaper, easier, faster, and can be just as consistent and accurate as swaging. As a bonus as stated above you can chamfer the case mouth at the same time. Trying to decide if I want to get the Dillon, can you comment on why you hated it? |
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I bought one of these and have never looked back.. http://www.cabelas.com/link-12/product/0002928210587a.shtml Just don't get you tongue caught on it..... 
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Trying to decide if I want to get the Dillon, can you comment on why you hated it? Sure, It is much slower than using a chamfer tool. You have to do about four operations as opposed to one with the chamfer tool. Also if you are working up a batch of mixed brass the interior thickness of the brass can vary so you get varying thickness at the web of the case which results in varying the amount of swaging that happens. My friend ruined about 200 PMC cases when he used his tool to swage the brass because he originally set it up for Lake City brass. The primer pockets were obviously over expanded. The swaging bulged the heads to the point they would barely fit in the shell holder after applying considerable force. Sure he could have avoided this by resetting the swaging tool, but why bother when its much cheaper faster and easeir to just chuck a chamfer tool in a drill and go to town. |
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I bought one of these and have never looked back.. http://www.cabelas.com/link-12/product/0002928210587a.shtml Just don't get you tongue caught on it..... I know a guy that has one of those (RCBS Case Prep Centers) and swears by it. I try to reload on the cheap, and try to avoid buying all of the gadgets I can, but there is no doubt that having one of those would be nice. |
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Trying to decide if I want to get the Dillon, can you comment on why you hated it? Sure, It is much slower than using a chamfer tool. You have to do about four operations as opposed to one with the chamfer tool. Also if you are working up a batch of mixed brass the interior thickness of the brass can vary so you get varying thickness at the web of the case which results in varying the amount of swaging that happens. My friend ruined about 200 PMC cases when he used his tool to swage the brass because he originally set it up for Lake City brass. The primer pockets were obviously over expanded. The swaging bulged the heads to the point they would barely fit in the shell holder after applying considerable force. Sure he could have avoided this by resetting the swaging tool, but why bother when its much cheaper faster and easeir to just chuck a chamfer tool in a drill and go to town. I'd have read the instructions and segregated my brass to prevent such an issue. Adjusting the tool takes just a few seconds, and we ARE talking about something you only ever have to do to a case once... |
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OK, I have to weigh in on this. I have used the chamfer/ deburr tool that came with my RCBS press kit to remove the crimp from thousands of military brass. I chuck it in my 1/2" drill, lock it on high and give the case a slight bump into the cutter. Sometimes I don't get all of it on the first try so I give a light second bump. I have never ruined a primer pocket using it. Also I flip the case around and chamfer the case mouth since I already have it in my hand. The case is now essentially ready to load. I have always heard about how well a swaging machine works and I tried out a friends one day to see how I would like it. I hated it, and he asked how I got rid of primer crimps if I didn't use a swager. I picked up his chamfer/deburr tool and explained how it had the perfect angle for primer pockets and how quickly you can process brass if you chuck it in a power drill. The next time I went over, I noticed the super swage was off the bench and under the bench was a Dewalt drill with the chamfer/deburr tool still chucked in it. I didn't even ask, I knew he had seen the light. As for the concerns about ruining the primer pocket, and getting it off center those fears appear unfounded to me. Careful attention of the first few you do will let you develop a feel as to how much pressure and for how long to apply it to get good consistent results. I loaded some 9mm in WCC '02 cases to take over to run through a neighbor's sten gun and he argued with me over whether or not I had swaged the primer pockets as they were all as smooth and consistent as you would get with swaging. Also if you have ever encountered Ultramax ammunition you will notice that they ream all of the primer pockets even the commercial brass in military calibers I guess so that none slip through with a crimp. Please note you don't have to ream nearly as deep as Ultramax does to get good results. When reloading Ultramax brass the primers look like little mushrooms where they have expanded into the over reamed primer pockets, so it appears to me that even with overdoing it there is still a good margin of safety built into the primer. Again DO NOT REAM AS DEEP AS ULTRAMAX. This just shows that if you do get a little carried away the case won't vaporize. In closing I believe that reaming is cheaper, easier, faster, and can be just as consistent and accurate as swaging. As a bonus as stated above you can chamfer the case mouth at the same time. i agree, only i use my drill press with a cone shaped burr running slow , never runied a case. thier the RCBS pocket swager, just to slow. the cone shape burr makes for easy primer seating.
I can't see how this removes the crimp, I mean sure it will at the top and put a nice bevel for the pimmer to go into, but the crimp is on the vertical walls of the poket,and your saying a Cone shaped angle tool removes the crimp? When you hit the bottom with the nose of the tool, how wide is your primer pocket? huge? I assume you dont go that far but if you dont how do you get all the crimp out? Maybe RCBS's deburring and chamfer tool has a more extream angle then my Hornady one. |
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What do you guys think of this? rcbs Middle of the road? And will it work with a Hornady LNL single stage? People are saying that you need an O type press, what is that? I'll just say this , There's a reason that it's in stock and the Hornady isn't 
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... I can't see how this removes the crimp, I mean sure it will at the top and put a nice bevel for the pimmer to go into, but the crimp is on the vertical walls of the poket,and your saying a Cone shaped angle tool removes the crimp? When you hit the bottom with the nose of the tool, how wide is your primer pocket? huge? I assume you dont go that far but if you dont how do you get all the crimp out? Maybe RCBS's deburring and chamfer tool has a more extream angle then my Hornady one. A primer crimp is not the full depth of the primer pocket. A tiny bit of material is upset at the surface in order to make the opening slightly undersize. Stop for a bit to think about this. Get a crimped case if you have one handy. Look at the crimp ring or stake marks. Then explain how a crimp that's five thousandths deep or thereabouts displaced material to the bottom of the pocket. It didn't. |
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